1931 Chrysler Phaeton Worth Another Look...

[60FlatTop]

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

Classifying what is and what isn't a Full Classic can seem esoteric and exclusionary and even arbitrary, but there is a method to the process and the decisions are not made lightly.

 

Recently, I have found myself using the term "dogma" often enough to notice I do in discussions about the car hobby. I smiled when I read that decisions are not made lightly, just imagining those discussions.

 

I see a bigger issue is looming in the haze as attrition takes the last of the original founders of the hobby. They are the ones, for whatever reasons, believe there was only one war. They stuck us with the Prewar and Post War designations. Prewar, as they saw it, is a 42 year range and fixed. Post war Spans 73 years now and keeps growing. That's a lot of cars and a bit short sighted as a classification identifier.

 

Never have been much of a follower. And I never paid much attention to rules. Those things are OK. I just tend to not have much confidence in the rule makers. Dr. Seuss wrote a book on the topic, The Sneeches. That's a fun read.

Bernie

[John_S_in_Penna]

15 minutes ago, 60FlatTop said:

...the original founders of the hobby.  They are the ones, for whatever reasons, believe there was only one war. They stuck us with the Prewar and Post War designations.

 

The term "postwar" was being used by the public

even in 1946, as demonstrated by old magazine articles

I've seen.  Studebaker proclaimed itself "First by Far

with a Postwar Car."   World War II was so catastrophic

that it left an indelible impression on people, and the

terminology has stayed with us.

Edited March 12, 2019 by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)

[1937hd45]

If there had been wagon collectors the same would have happened in 1865. Bob 

[Paul Dobbin]

What a special elegant car.  I had the opportunity to see 5 of them all together on the 1998 Glidden Tour.in the White Mountains

of New Hampshire.  We took the steamship M/S Mt Washington on Lake Winnnipesaukee from Central Harbor to Wolfeboro NH,

where we we greeted by dozens of wooden hull Chris Craft speedboats.  There on an the dock were 5 1931 Chrysler Phaetons,

arranged in a starburst facing outward. .  All owned by the same fellow, with their tops down, 5 different colors.  Red, Black, Green,

Blue & Maroon  SPECTACULAR!   

They all  had that sectioned body look that made them sleek and elegant looking.  It's a classic to me.

There were other cars there too, but after inspecting the speed boats and a 34 Ford Phaeton, I spent my shore leave admiring the

Chryslers.  That was a special Glidden Tour because it was in Bretton Woods NH in the White Mountains where the Glidden Tours

began in 1902 at the Mount Washington  Hotel & Resort.

Edited March 12, 2019 by Paul Dobbin
Added a thought (see edit history)

[Guest]

They are absolutely stunning Paul.

[Matt Harwood]

An early '30s Chrysler Imperial remains on my short list.

[trimacar]

Reminds me of the time we were at. a Grand Classic in Corpus Christi, Texas....nice display area under a hotel, but only 25 or so Classics showed up. This was early 1980's.

 

The late Jerry Moore asked if they'd like to have more cars.  I was standing next to him when he called an employee in Houston, said "load up the 640 roadsters and bring them"....

 

Next morning, a semi rig pulls up and unloads five 640 Packard roadsters, all near 100 point cars.  All beautiful...to his credit, he did not have them judged, if I recall correctly.

 

We had a 1928 443 coupe at that meet, had some fuel pump issues so rode in a friend's 37 Cord phaeton one night to supper.  I turned to my wife and said "we need one of these".....and six months later we had one!

[keiser31]

I think they are classics. I used one for our Christmas cards one year....

[K8096]

I'm surprised some of you on here don't know your CCCA history.   Some of these "middle of the road" Chryslers WERE accepted in the CCCA early on.   Attached are photos of a 1933 Chrysler Imperial CQ convertible sedan.     The black & white photo was taken in 1954, while the color one was taken in 1959.  The 1955 Packard 400 hardtop in the background was a 4 year old used car at the time.  This Chrysler was all original at the time, even the top.   The person who owned it in the 1950's & 60's was president of the local CCCA region for a couple years.  He bought the car from the original owner who received it as a high school graduation present.  Then sometime in the 1960's the CCCA "de classified" the middle series of Chrysler's from the club.  Imagine being the president of your region & having your car "de classified."  I don't think he was too happy about it.  Luckily he had another top of the line Classic to fall back on, but that's another story.    

[Guest]

K8096,

               Very interesting post.  It seems the rules for what is, isn't and was are very fluid and open to more than a little interpretation. Being "in" and then being "out" would certainly be a hard pill to swallow.

G.

[alsancle]

Imagine trying to pull that off now!

 

I say we drop Pierce Arrow.  😄

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

Imagine trying to pull that off now!

 

I say we drop Pierce Arrow.  😄

Over my dead Archer!  Them's fightin'' words!

 

You just HAD to pick my favorite marque, thanks!

 

I didn't realize that a Model car had be de-classicfied in the CCCA, that's very interesting.

 

 

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, trimacar said:

You just HAD to pick my favorite marque, thanks!

 

I was hunting for a response,  but  from your Pierce buddy, not you.

 

Pierce is beyond debate so it felt like safe one to use as an example.

[Matt Harwood]

Those goofball Reo Royales are just over-dressed Oldsmobiles--I say we kick them out!

[edinmass]

Some people have NO class! 🤬

 

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

15 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Some people have NO class! 🤬

 

 

 

What took you so long?

[alsancle]

We could argue that a Model J is really a hot rod truck.

[trimacar]

Yes, Ed may be partial to Pierce, but methinks he's been seduced lately by other Sirens in prettier skirts!

[mercer09]

methinks he's been seduced lately by other Sirens in prettier skirts!

 

yep! fire engines.................lol

[Walt G]

Matt, regarding your comment on the Bruick Roadmaster series 70 cars becoming full classics recently. I was on the Classification committee of CCCA at the time. Not only did the 70 series car share body panels with the Cadillac series 62 cars that had been deemed full classics years before , but the engine on the series 70 is the same as the 90 series Limited cars, and the chrome trim ( grille, parking lights, headlamp rims etc ) are all the same was well, even the seat handle adjuster on the front seat is the same as the Cadillac and has the same part number!  ( I  remember being at the CCCA annual meeting in Ga. a few years ago and talking to my friend Bob of Florida who had a Cadillac conv sedan that needed a seat adjusting handle. I  looked at it and told him to expand his search to Buick parts as well as they were the same , and even the part number was the same, and he was quite pleased to know that!) The classification committee has a difficult task , trying to be fair as well as recognize cars and particular models that perhaps have been neglected or now have more information available on them.

I know I spent endless hours/days looking at period material of all sorts for cars made on both sides of the Atlantic for facts to base decisions on. That is the way it should be. When I first joined AACA in 1965 the cut off date for vehicles to be accepted was 1935!  Times and thoughts do change, as do people, and hopefully decisions that are fair and justified are still being made. I still think CCCA is a great club even though I am no longer a part of it.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I love your Chrysler Matt. The same holds true for the Touring car, as well, but I like all cars. Regardless of the arbitrary nature of each club, the fact is that we all need a club to call home. If we as part of a car fraternity leave any owner, and a fine car, all alone, without a club to call home, then we have failed in most of our stated goals. 

 

Change is implicit. As things change we can either understand it and try to judiciously guide it, or we can rail against any change as being unlike the founders had intended. I try to be open minded about the incremental changes,  as long as it doesn't interfere with the club's goals. I would much rather see a fine car, and it's owner getting their place in the sun. To me it sure beats leaving them homeless.

[edinmass]

True problem is so many great cars, so little capitial. They are all very special and unique their own way. Comparing them all to each other, they all have strengths and weaknesses. There is no one perfect car.......especially pre war.....and most post war also...........I think you need to get to the last twenty years of very low production super cars to get it all in one package. For my taste.........I'm only interested in pre war. To each his own! 👍

[John_Mereness]

On 3/10/2019 at 12:38 PM, Xander Wildeisen said:

This car was at a show out here a few years ago, is this not a full classic? 

I think this is a 1933 CQ and it is not a CCCA car. 

[John_Mereness]

On 3/10/2019 at 1:08 PM, Matt Harwood said:

 

It also helps to have your big brothers, Cord and Duesenberg, put in a good word for you.

Technically speaking, I have not paid too much attention, though I believe if you pop the hood on a 1936-37 Cord the data plate reads  "Auburn Automobile Company" 

[trimacar]

6 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Technically speaking, I have not paid too much attention, though I believe if you pop the hood on a 1936-37 Cord the data plate reads  "Auburn Automobile Company" 

 

Yes, but I would argue that references the town, not the marque.....

[alsancle]

If you sit in a Senior Packard or Pierce and then an Auburn or even a Cord the difference in build quality is stark.    Still, I get why both are included.   A club with just Rolls, Duesenberg, Pierce Arrow and Packard would be a pretty small one.  Although I believe that Packard and Cadillac make up 50% of all the cars in the CCCA  (or something like that).

[1937hd45]

16 hours ago, alsancle said:

If you sit in a Senior Packard or Pierce and then an Auburn or even a Cord the difference in build quality is stark.    Still, I get why both are included.   A club with just Rolls, Duesenberg, Pierce Arrow and Packard would be a pretty small one.  Although I believe that Packard and Cadillac make up 50% of all the cars in the CCCA  (or something like that).

L-29 or Coffin Nose? 

 

Bob 

[alsancle]

11 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

L-29 or Coffin Nose? 

 

Bob 

 I was thinking 810/812,  because I actually had the experience last year of sitting in a 35 12 and then an hour later sitting in a 37 812 and just noticing the build quality differences between the two cars.   I love the 810/812 Cords and think they are undervalued,  but from a "high end quality" perspective they are not the same as a Packard or Pierce.

[Matt Harwood]

I seem to recall an anecdote (and I don't know how true it is) that a group of men from Rolls-Royce visited the Pierce-Arrow factory in the 1920s (maybe scouting for the Springfield facility?) and their only comment was, "How do you gentlemen manage to make any money by building vehicles like this?"

 

To flabbergast a Rolls-Royce engineer with quality and attention to detail is absolutely mind-boggling.

[West Peterson]

Hard to imagine someone from Rolls-Royce making that comment. If something that could be fastened quite well with two screws, Rolls would use 12.

[1937hd45]

49 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

I seem to recall an anecdote (and I don't know how true it is) that a group of men from Rolls-Royce visited the Pierce-Arrow factory in the 1920s (maybe scouting for the Springfield facility?) and their only comment was, "How do you gentlemen manage to make any money by building vehicles like this?"

 

To flabbergast a Rolls-Royce engineer with quality and attention to detail is absolutely mind-boggling.

I'll have to look closer now, guess there is more to them than the Goofy headlights/ Bob 

[Guest]

I came across this site that says this very same car sold at auction in 2018 for $110,000.

https://www.conceptcarz.com/profile/29214,24585/1931-chrysler-series-cd.aspx

I am not familiar with this auction site.

Could this be accurate information?

Greg

[Robert G. Smits]

If Texas is any indicator of CCCA health adding more cars to the brand hasn't worked too well.  There is no CCCA activity  south of Dallas and Houston with 4 million population can't support a club.  The North Texas CCCA web site is promoting activity's for 2015 and a proposed CARvan for 2016.  When I moved to College Station in 08 I dropped my membership and haven't missed it.  I was never made to feel welcome in the eight years I belonged to the Florida region in spite of owning six classics including a 31 Cadillac V-12 Sport Phaeton that scored 100 points many times over a 25 year period.

[60FlatTop]

Rolls-Royce worked hard to engineer, promote and generally legendize their brand. After nearly 100 years the crowned the achievement. They sold the whole works to the Germans.

 

Makes one want to believe in justice and conspiracy theories.

 

Just thinking about the general comments on the topic.

 

Bernie

[FLYER15015]

8 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

Rolls-Royce worked hard to engineer, promote and generally legendize their brand. After nearly 100 years the crowned the achievement. They sold the whole works to the Germans.

 

Makes one want to believe in justice and conspiracy theories.

 

Just thinking about the general comments on the topic.

 

Bernie

So the battle of Britton isn't over, and the Marshal plan worked a bit too well !

[Paul Dobbin]

11 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

So the battle of Britton isn't over, and the Marshal plan worked a bit too well !

    No, but it's now the 21st Century, no longer the world of Studebaker wagons.  Change or get left behind still applies, as evidenced by Rolls Royce.

[John_Mereness]

On 3/13/2019 at 6:53 PM, trimacar said:

 

Yes, but I would argue that references the town, not the marque.....

 

An 810 Cord data plate pretty much says it is an Auburn product (and an Auburn was built in the same assembly plant within eyeshot of a Cord too)

Edited March 16, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

8 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

An 810 Cord data plate pretty much says it is an Auburn product (and an Auburn was built in the same assembly plant within eyeshot of a Cord too) 

 

Isn't the same as Cadillac and Chevy both being GM products?

[John_Mereness]

On 3/10/2019 at 12:38 PM, Xander Wildeisen said:

This car was at a show out here a few years ago, is this not a full classic? 

Not to disrupt the revolution of the earth, but perhaps it is time for an owner to do the research and then make the application  to CCCA again (there has to be some history as to the declassification that would be useful too).  I asked a friend when a kid why I never say many Chrysler Imperials (aka what is their fatal flaw) and he said they had none - Chrysler built a fine car and as a result people drove them into the ground to the point that there was nothing left of them (aka why so few survivors). 

Edited March 16, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[trimacar]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

An 810 Cord data plate pretty much says it is an Auburn product (and an Auburn was built in the same assembly plant within eyeshot of a Cord too)

I understand what it says, but the company was originally named Auburn Automobile Company because it was located in Auburn, Indiana.

 

The Auburn automobile production predates the Duesy and Cord connection, so I stand by my statement that the "Auburn" on the Cord data plate still references the town, it's not that the Cord is a "version"  or a "product" of an Auburn automobile.

 

I guess it might be one of those things that makes sense in my mind, but may not be seen by others in that light.