Hubert_25-25

wire connectors on ignition & light switch

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I have a half dozen ignition switch and light switches in a box with the hopes to make a couple that work.  I have replacement housings and handles which is the biggest issue to replace from pot metal growth.  The electrical backing plates are in various condition.  On the ignition side,  two backing plates have terminals 1 3 2 and the others just have terminals 1 and 3.   All of the wiring diagrams show:

1 is incoming 6 volts. 

3 is for the coil and Starter Generator F terminal. 

2 is to the Starter Generator A terminal.

 

The switch is 3 prongs, so that it powers 2 and 3 when touching 1.  I assume lack of a #2 terminal means that wires 2 and 3 are combined on the 3 terminal.    I have yet to see that on a wiring diagram.  Is that an issue if the A and the F terminals are connected all the time?   Has anyone else run into this issue?     Thank you,   Hugh

 

 IMG_7754.thumb.JPG.0ae2fe82a54a475f09d3465708d3bd9d.JPGIMG_7755.thumb.JPG.d8aba77042140dccedbcef45bd7a6a64.JPG1414519122_Wiring-1924-1925Buick-bestdiagram.thumb.jpg.5116be483f36633b0e6f7e875b2c5070.jpg

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Benefits of AACA Membership.

Hugh, 

 Looking at the wiring diagram, if you wire 2 and 3 together,  I believe you would not be able to shut the engine off after started,  The ignition coil would be wired indirectly to the output of the generator.

 

Glenn Manes

Wheat Ridge CO

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That's really interesting Glenn.  I thought about that.   

 

I have 8 of these switches.  A couple are just the backing plates because the pot metal is completely gone.  3 of the backing plates have a #2 terminal, and 5 do not.  The reason I wanted to use the ones without the #2 terminal is because they are in a little better condition.  So I wonder when they stopped using the #2 terminal and how they wired the cars that used these backing plates.    

 

Maybe when they went to the separate starter generator units in 1926 they dropped the #2 terminal.  This is a wiring diagram from 1929 and it only shows 2 wires to the ignition switch.  Does anyone have a 1926 wiring diagram?     

Thank you,   Hugh

632151813_1929BuickWiringdiagram.thumb.JPG.89a636884f166df65bf800f876367ff9.JPG

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Hugh:

 Yes the switch for our cars with the 3 contacts are needed for Starter/Generator cars. I too have about 6 piles of Delco switch parts and pieces. I made up 2 new ones from the best pieces for the Standard and Master. The later 1926-1927 ones do not have the extra contacts. Of course those had nicer flatter micarta plates. Also the 1926 and later cars have the headlight dimmer switch on the steering column.

 This is what was originally in the Master when I got it.DSCF5768.thumb.JPG.9da8f11458c4c55586e51c5d92c498a8.JPG

 The forum is really being a pain about how the photos are uploading or I would have more. I will do another post. I have deleted the photos that would not post and still it comes up I am over the 9.77 MB limit.

 

Edited by dibarlaw
Added content (see edit history)
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Here is my Master switch in a new aluminum case from BOB'S. The casting was somewhat rough and did take a bit of machining and cleanup.

                                 DSCF5777.thumb.JPG.fe632aaa76bc47757fed789b7e107cef.JPG

DSCF5775.thumb.JPG.d3b13abf087ad30cecdb5220e30fb653.JPG The micarta plate was cleaned and flattened by warming it with a hair dryer and clamped flat. Then I filled the worn areas with super glue.

DSCF5779.thumb.JPG.ebbe54bca55e39578d3e817da764db7b.JPG

Fixture I made for removal of switch levers and reassembly.

 

 

 

Edited by dibarlaw (see edit history)
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I made new contacts for the plate in my Standard as there was bad heat damage.

DSCF1546.thumb.JPG.58018af5f1cf5e69b6259f71c4d0696b.JPG  DSCF1528.thumb.JPG.041b7d7153b718f8f1d49272af1ea352.JPG    

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 Thanks for the photos, repair tips, and the 1926 wiring diagram.   It looks like I need to clean up one of the backing plates with a #2 post.  I suppose a person could put a #2 post in a newer backing plate.  I have plenty of parts to choose from.   The old backing plates look to be Micarta, and the newer ones appear to be black plastic.  Larry,  I still love the effort someone went thru to modernize your old Master switch.  

Hugh

   

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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7 hours ago, Glenn Manes said:

Hugh, 

 Looking at the wiring diagram, if you wire 2 and 3 together,  I believe you would not be able to shut the engine off after started,  The ignition coil would be wired indirectly to the output of the generator.

 

Glenn Manes

Wheat Ridge CO

 

My switch was created from parts by me, and I used a spare 27 back plate instead of the worn 24 one.

 

Gauges complete!

 

1169119820_11271624buickgauges(1).thumb.JPG.2dd777332fa183e3df879b2e51727f7b.JPG

 

1667353217_11271624buickgauges(4).thumb.JPG.b753f9de85b1211e7ce2dbd4c9196ac6.JPG

 

Now after this thread, nope!

 

I never considered the difference to be an issue, and certainly never thought what Glenn suggested would happen.  So glad this thread came along before I got to the point of starting my car!

 

20190307_160428.thumb.jpg.2ca7ed95390834133a4b87b528963e2f.jpg

 

Looks like I have more work to do, cleaning and reinstalling the 24 back plate.

 

Thanks to Hugh and Glenn!

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Hugh

 

I have to clean the contacts on that thermal breaker switch every few years.  When it  has poor contact, everything suffers.

 

I also installed a modern maxi fuse for the whole switch input since that 1920's breaker technology was not much to talk about.

 

Brian

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1 hour ago, 27donb said:

 

My switch was created from parts by me, and I used a spare 27 back plate instead of the worn 24 one.

 

Gauges complete!

 

1169119820_11271624buickgauges(1).thumb.JPG.2dd777332fa183e3df879b2e51727f7b.JPG

 

1667353217_11271624buickgauges(4).thumb.JPG.b753f9de85b1211e7ce2dbd4c9196ac6.JPG

 

Now after this thread, nope!

 

I never considered the difference to be an issue, and certainly never thought what Glenn suggested would happen.  So glad this thread came along before I got to the point of starting my car!

 

20190307_160428.thumb.jpg.2ca7ed95390834133a4b87b528963e2f.jpg

 

Looks like I have more work to do, cleaning and reinstalling the 24 back plate.

 

Thanks to Hugh and Glenn!

 

Mane I can’t even get the damn lights/ignition switch out of my dash!!!

 

tips guys I need tips on how the hell to get it out, I removed the two screens holding the “U” shaped bracket and the bracket, I have tapped on the back side of the housing carcass but no go, it won’t budge!

 

my headlight switch is frozen in the off position and my buddy snapped off the switch lever for it so it needs to come out I guess to rebuild it!!

 

how do I also remove the switch levers off the switch housing?

 

and one last question, there is a “ground” tab it seems you can reach under and push on and ground it out..... what does that do?

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Don, 

     Your switches and gauges really look nice.  So you are in the same boat as I am in needing to clean up the backing plate with corroded screw terminals.  Once the plate is removed, you could lay it with the prongs down in a shallow dish of vinegar, and that will dissolve the rust.  You have to keep an eye on the part because the interface between the vinegar and atmosphere may be an issue.  I may even try this using evaporust.  Once the rust is gone, you can use a home plater, but then you need to wire all the terminals together before plating.  I may try just using a soldering iron to tin each prong as protection against humidity and future rust.   

 

Brian, 

     Thanks for the comment on keeping the breaker clean and installing a fuse.   Power comes in to this Master switch on the #1 terminal.  It is a 12" wire from the ammeter.   I did upgrade this from a 14 gauge wire to a 12 gauge wire, along with the ammeter wire from the battery post on the starter.  I also wanted to install a fuse here, as what is outside the fused system is the coil and the horn.  It would be nice to install an auto reset fuse in series between the ammeter and the Master switch.  I could mount it on the back of the switch holder bracket.  Any thoughts on the amperage I should buy?  I could replace the existing breaker with one of these as well.  The switch would start to look like Larry's Frankenstein switch, but maybe more reliable. 

 

Also note that the screws in these master switches are #10-30 (The current standard is #10-32).     

Hugh

1083950092_autoresetfuse.thumb.JPG.6e9237b0314b6d1fbc90305930b371dd.JPG

 

Edited by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)
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I know I ask ALOT of questions gentlemen but I’m just tying to learn as much as I can and be a sponge!

 

what does this do?

79E051B5-0303-43B3-8705-CCFBE877124A.jpeg

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It is a dual purpose knob.  When you rotate that knob, it turns on the instrument light, or if you forget to rotate it back, it drains your battery. 

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Hugh if worst comes to worst you can always add a 2 pole single throw 6v relay into the circuit which will act as the second pole.

Wayne

Edited by McCargar (see edit history)
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Wayne, 

      I have enough parts to put this back as original, but that is an excellent idea.  Thank you for the thought and your knowledge.    Hugh

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19 hours ago, Crazyfamily said:

I know I ask ALOT of questions gentlemen but I’m just tying to learn as much as I can and be a sponge!

 

what does this do?

79E051B5-0303-43B3-8705-CCFBE877124A.jpeg

 

There is a third function. You can push on it and it lights the dash light while held down. 

 

And Hugh is right, when you turn it on by turning it you tend to forget and leave it on so the ‘push to see ‘ feature is nice and what I use to glance at the gauges at night. 

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Addressing Crazyfamily's difficulty removing the switch body: doesn't the Standard switch drop into the panel from the front ?

If so, the switch casting has swelled similar to the center casting in the photo below, so now the rear portion of the casting is larger than the hole it needs to pass thru.  The casting on the right swelled and cracked completely thru. The left casting shows what happens when somebody used a punch and hammer to knock a stuck switch lever out from the back side- game over.   

I suggest first carefully disassembling the micarta plate from behind and catch all the parts that fall out.  Use a caliper to get a measurement of the casting diameter to figure out how badly it has swollen, and then get a strip of emery cloth and start sanding the protruding housing around its circumference. It might be swollen a little bit, and finally loosen up after some sanding.  If it appears to be crumbling into pieces and can't be saved, then use pliers to break off bits of the housing until it lets go.  Buy a new casting and use the salvaged parts.

Kevin

 

housijgs.jpg

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Ok to break it, but be careful where you break it.  If this assembly is stuck in the dash.

1) Remove the 2 long bolts and the 3 screws first. 

2)  remove the micarta/plastic plate on the back so that it does not get damaged.

Be sure you only break the sides and do not bend or break the face plate of the housing.  You can reuse the glass if you do not break it and save $100.

There is some felt behind the paper face that will protect the glass - some.   The order is housing/felt/paper/glass

 

- there are 4 nickel plated tabs that hold the big round face bezel.  Do not over bend them when trying to remove them.  Only bend them enough to get the bezel off.  

 1341032488_2017-02-0200_31_44.thumb.jpg.8b43feadd27c594fd092c61a66e7beee.jpg

 

 

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I bought a very nice spare Standard switch at Hershey one year. The switches were stiff but they still turned. Several weeks later when I went to work on it they were now locked up tight. So I had to relief drill them out like all the other switches I tried to salvage parts from. That is why I made up the wood backing block. To support the bezel and glass face. The pot metal is a real trial to drill because of the poor consistency of the mix. One spot is soft as butter another is hard as glass. Another reason of why the material grew and distorted over the years.

DSCF5705.thumb.JPG.63c9478313613fe011c6c6a63fc878af.JPG  DSCF5701.thumb.JPG.d102c6ece8af447afe2e0e701983d738.JPG

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Like many of you, I rebuilt my switch also.  Mine had frozen snapped off levers.

 

New levers from Bob's and then a bunch of hand fitting.  Seemed everything had grown and needed to be drilled or filed.  Nothing too complicated.  I fussed with it for weeks one Winter with an old metal TV tray in my lap in front of the TV with the wife.  I was like the little old watch maker.

 

As I mentioned above.  The thermal breaker switch contacts on the back can get dirty and then everything gets lowered voltage.  Keep that clean.  Add a real fuse somewhere too for piece of mind.

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17 hours ago, Hubert_25-25 said:

Ok to break it, but be careful where you break it.  If this assembly is stuck in the dash.

1) Remove the 2 long bolts and the 3 screws first. 

2)  remove the micarta/plastic plate on the back so that it does not get damaged.

Be sure you only break the sides and do not bend or break the face plate of the housing.  You can reuse the glass if you do not break it and save $100.

There is some felt behind the paper face that will protect the glass - some.   The order is housing/felt/paper/glass

 

- there are 4 nickel plated tabs that hold the big round face bezel.  Do not over bend them when trying to remove them.  Only bend them enough to get the bezel off.  

 1341032488_2017-02-0200_31_44.thumb.jpg.8b43feadd27c594fd092c61a66e7beee.jpg

 

 

 

 

As as always it feels great to be welcomed here and to be able to have gentlemen like yourselves to get good quality info and advice from!!!

 

i am trying to learn as much as I can and I know I ask A LOT of questions so I appreciate the help!!!

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So if I remove the two nuts, u shaped bracket, and the two long all thread pieces then can I remove the back plate of the switch with all the wires still attached to it or do I have to remove the wires first label them and then remove the innerts of the switch?

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11 hours ago, dibarlaw said:

I bought a very nice spare Standard switch at Hershey one year. The switches were stiff but they still turned. Several weeks later when I went to work on it they were now locked up tight. So I had to relief drill them out like all the other switches I tried to salvage parts from. That is why I made up the wood backing block. To support the bezel and glass face. The pot metal is a real trial to drill because of the poor consistency of the mix. One spot is soft as butter another is hard as glass. Another reason of why the material grew and distorted over the years.

DSCF5705.thumb.JPG.63c9478313613fe011c6c6a63fc878af.JPG  DSCF5701.thumb.JPG.d102c6ece8af447afe2e0e701983d738.JPG

 

 

I think from your pic pic above it answered my last posted question!!

 

Also I had asked before but didn’t see anyone reference it, on the bottom back side of the switch housing there looks to be a metal tab that can be used to ground out something???

 

what is it or what does it do??

 

587A1022-FD16-4261-AD01-4539C5983317.jpeg

Edited by Crazyfamily (see edit history)

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