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I just acquired a 1915 Overland Model 83 touring. I don't see any Overlands covered in the Restoration Forum, so I thought I'd report on mine. My car is quite complete. The former owner's son, from whom I bought the car, tells me it was toured in the 1980's. It starts up nicely but, so far, I've only driven it in & out of the trailer (I picked it up last Saturday). It hasn't moved in 8 years, the grease cups are empty and the oil is old. I drained the crankcase yesterday. It holds a lot of oil. It nearly overflowed my 7-quart oil pan. The oil "filter" (a coarse brass mesh screen) was half clogged with fuzz. I'll next drop the pan and see what's inside. I've never owned a car this big (13 feet long) and it barely fits in my garage (photo was taken in the seller's garage). My other cars are all smaller roadsters. 

 

The Overland models from this period are similar mechanically: cone clutch, splash oil system with gear pump, 3-speed, rear-axle-mounted transmission, 33X4 tires (mine are 33X4.5). 

 

The paint on my car is old and will need some work. I may repaint it since the rear section has been stripped and some was sanded to bare metal. 

 

Phil

 

 

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The most obvious engine compartment problem on the Overland: a broken generator shaft. It broke right at the sprocket wheel. Someone tried a butt weld, but failed. A fellow Overland owner in the UK had the same problem. It seems the generator armature can seize causing the chain-driven sprocket wheel to snap off. Many cars have replaced the chain drive with a v-belt drive. He successfully arc welded his broken shaft by grinding the stub and the new end to mate like two dull screwdriver blades. The windings were protected with sheet metal, etc. to keep out the sparks. Also posted is a photo of his welding job. I don't have the welding skills for that, but maybe I can find someone to do the job.

 

Phil

 

 

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On 3/4/2019 at 8:46 AM, MochetVelo said:

The carburetor is a Styromberg K0-1. It drips when the engine of off. I'm thinking it's the needle valve.

 

Phil

 

 

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You can generally "lap in" the needle and seat with fine polishing compound or chrome cleaner - I used toothpaste for the last one I did.   You may also have to play with the float level - could set  just a hair wrong that gasoline drips to overflow when car is stopped.  There is a shut off that I see on the fuel line by your carb (right. side) - you need to shut that off when you are not running as the needle and seat technology was just not all that good and if not closed will often drain out your vacuum tank (which will cause car to be hard to start - re-start).   No real need to send your carb off for a rebuild - it is all brass and generally a good cleaning is all one will need (as well as perhaps a specialized gasket or washer that you should be able to make or find without too much effort).   Also, generally speaking via early cars:  being updraft when you turn the car off you may loose quite a bit of gasoline that is in manifolds  - often surprising as much as a 1/3 of a cup.

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Focus on it mechanically - respray rear or have a good paint store match you some rattle cans of the color on car (and touch up rest) and then just have a good time (at least for a while).  A lot of people get too caught up in restoration and never even enjoy their car for a drive around the block. 

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This won't be a show car, as I plan to drive it. The carb and oil pan are off now. Here is a view from underneath. There was some goop and pieces of something in the thick bottom oil, so I'm glad I looked inside.

 

Phil

 

 

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The oil pan has a rope seal which the previous guy smeared with silicone. There were bits of silicone in the oil screen, also. The copper line comes from the oil pump and keeps the troughs full.

 

This car has gravity-fed fuel and no vacuum system. 

 

Phil

 

 

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Not sure what the Overland engine should look like, but the studs on the connecting rods look odd. What keeps them from loosening? I expected a bolt or maybe a nut on top. Also, the oil dippers look undamaged, but quite slim in profile.

 

Phil

 

 

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Look at the top of the studs to see if they have been hit, probably with a ball peen hammer. That was a cheesy way of spreading them slightly to make them tight in their threaded holes. Mitchell did it... they also cut a slot in the studs and spread them with a cold chisel.

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An Overland owner told me the same thing about the studs being peened, JV. I forgot to look today, but I'll check!

 

I pulled a rear wheel today, and the brake pads are quite oily. I'm thinking the differential was a bit over-filled (see photo) and/or the seals, if any, were not very effective. This car has inner and outer brake pads. At least the outer (contracting) pads were dry.

 

Phil

 

 

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Don't underestimate the original felt seals.  They have a poor reputation because they don't age well but it is unreasonable to expect them to work perfectly when 100 years old. They worked fine in the period and will continue to work well if replaced with new felts.

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I'm not sure what seals the rear axle have. The left wheel had a cut O-ring at the end of the axle that proved ineffective.

 

By the way, I checked the connecting rod studs, and they each have two punch marks, as JV suggested.

 

Phil

 

 

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Yes, the axle shaft is tapered. The oil from the differential flowed freely down the axle shaft, I think partially because it was over-filled. The brake linings were well lubricated. The transmission is attached to the differential, and, I believe, pumps oil into it. Some owners have machined these parts to accept modern seals.

 

Phil

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Here is a "mystery part" I discovered on the left front wheel of my Overland. It's a metal bar screwed to the inner hub. On the end is attached an odd, square machine screw whose square head is magnetic. I can't figure what it is. It;s obviously not original. Any ideas?

 

Phil

 

 

 

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Here is another aftermarket addition: a temperature sensor on the upper coolant hose. It goes to a gauge added to the dash. I suppose this was a standard parts store item. Actually pretty clever, it apparently has never leaked.

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, MochetVelo said:

Here is a "mystery part" I discovered on the left front wheel of my Overland. It's a metal bar screwed to the inner hub. On the end is attached an odd, square machine screw whose square head is magnetic. I can't figure what it is. It;s obviously not original. Any ideas?

 

Phil

 

 

 

That might be somebody's attempt at adding a speedometer, in the same way the magnetic pick-up on a bicycle speedometer works.

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On 3/10/2019 at 12:19 PM, MochetVelo said:

The transmission lid removed, and the gears look pretty good. Only about 1" of oil, but all the gears are coated. What should the oil level be?

 

Phil

 

 

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If there is a side fill plug I would fill up to that level.  If you fill from the top, I would fill it to the level it would drip out the input or output shaft.  Basically, fill it to whatever level it starts to leak.   You may have to try various fluids too.  I would be tempted to perhaps use this to start with:  140W SPO-277 LUB010 $22.00 www.restorationstuff.com  all be it you may want to see what the manual recommends as you may need something more thick.

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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 I will make a suggestion that you may not like and that is if you are not use to doing "re-awakening" of cars on a regular basis, you perhaps are taking too many things apart prior to finishing any single project. It tends to be 10 times harder to put something together than take apart and this is the point where many people get in over their heads.  All the old timers that taught me were touch one thing and finish it, then go to the next, and ... - get it first so it will run up and down the drive, then get it to run around the block, then get it to run around the neighborhood, and ...

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54 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

 I will make a suggestion that you may not like and that is if you are not use to doing "re-awakening" of cars on a regular basis, you perhaps are taking too many things apart prior to finishing any single project. It tends to be 10 times harder to put something together than take apart and this is the point where many people get in over their heads.  All the old timers that taught me were touch one thing and finish it, then go to the next, and ... - get it first so it will run up and down the drive, then get it to run around the block, then get it to run around the neighborhood, and ...

 

That's very good advice, though Phil has completely disassembled multiple cars and fully restored them.  So while absolutely spot on advice for 99% of those reading the post... Phil is in that 1%.  I also wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't already put those things back together and/or is waiting on parts/tools/fluids to do so.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Luv2Wrench said:

 

That's very good advice, though Phil has completely disassembled multiple cars and fully restored them.  So while absolutely spot on advice for 99% of those reading the post... Phil is in that 1%.  I also wouldn't be surprised if he hasn't already put those things back together and/or is waiting on parts/tools/fluids to do so.

 

 

I am too use to seeing things all apart in a garage with good intentions and life and ... getting in the road - I can literally take you to a good 100 garages around here.

 

One of those restorers that was way ahead of his time, Ned Herman of Vintage Garage, in Cincinnati, OH (mainly a RR and Bentley shop, though plenty of other things went through the doors) use to when at all possible restore the car as he took it apart - it was an interesting approach and I have never been that fortunate to have a project like such.  One of his former lead mechanical fellows is the one who helps me with most of my projects, one of his former machinists helps me with "how do we fix that" problems, and his former painter helps me too.   

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I will give you my two cents on the trans lube. Use the 600W steam oil the model T suppliers sell. It is the right viscosity to help your car shift easily. Most modern oils are not.

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56 minutes ago, AHa said:

I will give you my two cents on the trans lube. Use the 600W steam oil the model T suppliers sell. It is the right viscosity to help your car shift easily. Most modern oils are not.

 Not to say it is right or wrong for an Overland, but may be a homework project.   The last time I used 600 weight model T (in a Stoddard Dayton) fluid,  we had to stop the car every time we needed to shift and then restart - let's just say it was not in the car long.  There was a drops per minute formula in the owner's manual and I sent that to Mobil and an engineer sent me a case of something or another that matched the formula and it was "dreamy."   As a sidenote, it was the unused quarts of 600 from when I tried to run such in the Franklin and had the same issue (my feeling being a T and a Stoddard Dayton were same nature of the beast - apparently not). 

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Thanks for those insights. A friend who drives an Overland Model 80 finds the 600 lube works well in the transmission. You sort of have to use the same oil as in the differential, as the two units are connected. Speaking of taking things apart, I have the radiator off and at the shop now being checked out. I also have the Stromberg KO-1 carburetor apart. I think I found the problem with that, and I'll have a separate posting about it. Finally, I pulled the rear wheels and sent the brake shoes to a nearby shop for re-lining. I'd really like to figure a way to keep oil from migrating out the axle tubes and onto the brakes.

 

Phil

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17 hours ago, MochetVelo said:

 I'd really like to figure a way to keep oil from migrating out the axle tubes and onto the brakes.

 

Phil

worthy project all be it you may have to do some machine work on axle or be creative with a seal.   I will say that anything we have had pre-WWII we are particularly careful to keep the car level.

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Given that they did not have o'rings in 1915 (at least of today's design) - how were they sealing this to being wit.  A lot of early cars have reverse threaded splines that "feed" oil back in and then drains for such via excess. 

 

Also, are you braking at the axle are are you braking at the drive shaft - if the axle is just an emergency brake they may not have cared too much when new.

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As I mentioned, I think, the Stromberg KO-1 carburetor dribbles after shut-off. I assumed it was a float valve, but disassembly found the real culprit: the low-idle tube, which runs up through the float chamber, had rotted off its base, thus releasing the contents of the bowl (and gas tank) to the ground. Frankly, I don't understand the exact purpose of this tube, but the result of its demise was apparent. 

I was lucky to find a spare carburetor on eBay. Though it looked pretty sad, the interior is quite nice, including the idle tube. With this spare, I think I can make a good,non-leaking carb. The first photo shows my spare carb, wet with solvent cleaner. The intact idle tube is visible on the left in the middle of the float bowl. The second photo shows the broken tube (note jagged bottom end).

 

Phil

 

 

 

 

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Here's a view of the broken generator shaft. I thought the previous owner said "welded" the shaft, but he actually JB Welded it. Of course, that repair failed. Not only that, it appears to have had two bolts drilled through it. I think I can get it welded, however. The shaft and armature lift right out. Note heavy wear on sprocket wheel. I will convert it to a v-belt.

 

Phil

 

 

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Removed the valves which were pretty well-coated with carbon. The exhaust valves have some rust pitting, so I think I'll find a place to grind them. The seats don;t look too bad. I'm hoping just to lap them.

 

Phil

 

 

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On 3/18/2019 at 7:39 PM, MochetVelo said:

Here's a view of the broken generator shaft. I thought the previous owner said "welded" the shaft, but he actually JB Welded it. Of course, that repair failed. Not only that, it appears to have had two bolts drilled through it. I think I can get it welded, however. The shaft and armature lift right out. Note heavy wear on sprocket wheel. I will convert it to a v-belt.

 

Phil

 

 

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What does the shaft/part look like?  Do you have a parts drawing?  I'd be happy to make the part for you if it fits within my capabilities. 

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Thanks for the offer, Jeff. The repair suggested by my Model 83 friend in the U.K. is to weld a stub onto the old shaft. The mating pieces are ground down like dull screwdriver tips and then welded ( I think he used arc). The armature windings don't come off the shaft, so it's a pretty chunky assembly (weighs maybe 10 pounds). My thought was to bring it to a local machine shop that also welds, and get the repaired shaft turned and milled to take a v-belt pulley.

 

Phil

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