oldcarnut

1922 Super 6 Hudson 4-Passenger Speedster

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All original with 12K miles. 

The 20s were great years for the Super 6. Engines had counter balance crankshafts, pressure oiling, aluminum pistons, hard nickel valves, fully balanced engines. 

 

Speedsters would do 100MPH with there light all steel Biddle and smart body's.

 

This two owner car just came out of a 50 plus year retirement. The car runs, drives, clutches, shifts, brakes like a 12K mile car. The hood and fenders are Japan. Body is brush painted Bruster Varnish. Leather is good. Carpet and front floor mat are excellent. Top is unbelievable. This car is fun to drive with lots of power. Recent complete professional service. If you like Original and want the car that everyone wants to look at, and a Great Car for Nickel age Touring, please consider this. $44,900 OBO

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Yes, I have the  side curtains . front seat is solid, but not as nice as the rear. seat bottoms look almost new. Doors panels are beautiful. car runs on it's original vacuum tank.

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Jim.Tires are 34/4, rear axel is 2.75 to 1. on the Speedsters. engines turn 3000RPM. Ralph Mulford drove a stock Super 6 102.5 MPH over a measured mile. A new stock car record. A stock chassis won its class at Pikes Peak, and held it for 8 years. stock car racing goes on and on for the Super6.

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These cars always had a good reputation for performance. But I never dreamed they'd be geared like that, and thus run that fast. Makes you wonder where they envisioned driving it back in that era of mostly dirt roads.  

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Hudsons like this one were popular with bootleggers. They didn't draw a lot of attention but were extremely fast. Zeke

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On 2/18/2019 at 12:13 PM, oldcarnut said:

Jim.Tires are 34/4, rear axel is 2.75 to 1. on the Speedsters. engines turn 3000RPM. Ralph Mulford drove a stock Super 6 102.5 MPH over a measured mile. A new stock car record. A stock chassis won its class at Pikes Peak, and held it for 8 years. stock car racing goes on and on for the Super6.

 

Not that I want to challenge the seller, but 2.75 rear end is a little hard to believe.  With that low of a ratio power should be next to nothing, especially in a four passenger Touring. The Pierce 66 had a similar ratio but had an engine the size of the Titanic, nearly three times bigger.  This Hudson engine at 3-1/2x5 is big but not that big.  Same size as the Packard Six in 1928.

 

3.75 sounds about right for a fast car from around 1920.

 

I would like to see a reference for that 2.75 figure.  I'm poking around but haven't found anything yet.  "classiccardatabase.com" says 4.75:1.  A 1921 "Automotive Industries" magazine with specifications for all cars lists Hudson Super six as 4.90 !

 

4.75 or 4.90 sounds way too slow,  but with a very smooth counterbalanced engine they may have acquired their fast speed through very high rpm's.   Perhaps the Speedster is geared taller.     I hope someone can provide that confirmation.

 

 

Edited by scott12180 (see edit history)

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For comparison, the 1924 Cadillac, with an 83 hp V8, offered three rear end ratios: 4.91:1, or 4.5:1, or the high speed 4:15 to 1. I have driven my car with the low gearing and now the middle. I have wondered about the stated ratio for the Hudson, because it would require reverse and first to be VERY low geared — just to drive slowly — and then what would second look like? These cars need to be geared down from third to second going up hills. If the Hudson gearing made second as fast as my third, then the car would be underpowered in second, and the driver would have to shift to first to go uphill. But first would be very slow! A four-speed transmission would solve this, I suppose.

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Thanks, Mike, for drawing me into this discussion with the 1924 Cadillac "hook". As you well know, I have great affection and admiration for 1924 Cadillacs.

 

Also, thanks  to the data Marty has found, we can see that the standard ratio for the speedster is 4.81. The trans is 3 speed. With the 2.75s in road service, the driver would be a master at lightning fast double clutched downshifts. No real problem doing that. The problem would be in starting from standstill on a grade. But obviously these tall gears were specifically supplied for speed trials. Headwinds, in addition to grade requirements, would exercise the lower gears. It should be noted that torque peak, ( which defines ability to pull grades), would most likely have been in the high 'teens of rpm.

 

What is it said about extraordinary claims ? Something about requiring extraordinary evidence ? So after scratching my head, I sharpened up my pencil, and dusted off my arithmetic skills.

 

                                    Said 2.75 speedster at 60 mph : about 1600 rpm.

                                      "       "            "           at 90 mph :     "      2400 rpm. Which means that 

                                      "      "              "          at around 100 mph that engine would be twisting around 2700 revs. This assumes my multiplication, division, addition, extrapolation and interpolation pass peer review. It should be noted at this point, that peak horsepower, (which defines ultimate velocity capability), would most likely be in the high 2000s, or perhaps 3000 rpm or so. In order to help with the extraordinary proof, we do need to know what the rpm at h.p. peak is. If we find out that is around 2700 rpm, (the design to achieve 100mph would have necessitated horsepower peak coinciding with target speed), then we need to know something about the aerodynamic characteristics  of the speedster. Anyone have a picture ? In a stocker, all drag elements, headlights, fenders, runningboards, windshield, top, etc. would have to be removed. Obviously if a speed of 100 was the target,the 2.75s must have also been fitted.  Removing as much weight as possible, and fitting a rigid tonneau cover would be recommended. Anyone have a picture ? 

 

Without getting into a long paragraph or three regarding aerodynamics and the, (and frankly my), misunderstanding thereof, even into the '50s and'60s, I will just say : Think about Ferdinand Porsche's mistaken intuition regarding the VW. Despite its round curves, it has a drag coefficient almost as bad as a Model A Ford. Gabriel Voisin through his aviation expertise, must have been at the forefront of automotive aerodynamics in the '20s. After all, he recognized the need for aerodynamic stability (ideally center of gravity ahead of center of pressure), as automobile speed capability was increasing. Even Voisin's drag coefficients are high, due to the hard angles and large flat, or single curved surfaces of his unusual coachwork. Maserati erroneously placed the air intake on the Le Mans 450S in a LOW pressure area of the hood. Should have hit around 220 down the Mulsanne straight. I don't think they could get out of the 180s, starving for air where it should have been force fed ! 

 

It will be aerodynamic considerations which will govern the ability of a 70 h.p. 288 cu. in. flathead 6 to move vehicle at 100 mph. And whatever the drag, power requirement goes up as the CUBE of the speed. Those last few mph come hard earned indeed.

 

The world's first inherently balanced V8 powers MIke's '24 Cadillac. Rather well balanced from the factory it is, with a properly counterweighted crankshaft, and a significantly lightened flywheel, and greatly improved everything over its ancestors. With the 4.15s, these cars, when new, or well  maintained could very fast cruise at 60 mph. There was just a bit more top speed available, as 60 was at around 2500 rpm. That was just in between torque peak at around 2000, and power peak at 3000, or just a hair more. My '24 and'27 Cads have the stump puller 4.9s. 60 occurs at around 3000 rpm. I have briefly hit 50 mph which I didn't enjoy one bit in the '24. I have been forced by traffic density and lighting conditions on an Interstate bridge, and also a tunnel, to run the '27 at 60 for several white knuckle miles. Though at power peak, it was not floored. These cars are really "unsafe at any speed". Their 4 wheel brakes, particularly those on the '24, were better than most of the mechanicals of the times. But still, they, and the handling limitations of 1920s cars make these cars most happy going slowly along 25-35 mph byways. I could be bribed to try to drive a 1922, 2 wheel braked, fully prepared Hudson 100 mph. But now in poor health in my mid 70s I just don't have much to lose. The amount would have to be significant, and I would rather drive my monster V12 SL 600 157 again. And you would have to pay me to do that too.

 

Hudson power peak, anybody ? More evidence or documentation ? AACA library ? There are almost certainly pictures of this feat. AACA library ?                             -   Carl 

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Marty. Yes I screwed up and forgot the 1/2 behind the 4 to make it 4 1/2. I have been very carful on my description of this car as I want the new owner to have the pleasure releasing it. The final drive ratio is 2.75 to 1, my be closer to 3 to 1. I measured it on my back.  ALL YOU EXPERTS,DONT KNOW THE FACTS. I gave a hint with Mulford. I have all the letters etc. unbelievable what a 4 speed with overdrive does. I am sorry that I put this great original, historic car on this site to be criticized, and my integrity put in question. I will remove it asap. Stu Laidlaw

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27 minutes ago, oldcarnut said:

Marty. Yes I screwed up and forgot the 1/2 behind the 4 to make it 4 1/2. I have been very carful on my description of this car as I want the new owner to have the pleasure releasing it. The final drive ratio is 2.75 to 1, my be closer to 3 to 1. I measured it on my back.  ALL YOU EXPERTS,DONT KNOW THE FACTS. I gave a hint with Mulford. I have all the letters etc. unbelievable what a 4 speed with overdrive does. I am sorry that I put this great original, historic car on this site to be criticized, and my integrity put in question. I will remove it asap. Stu Laidlaw

 

I too, tire of all the sock puppets and keyboard experts that feel compelled to chime in on every post.

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I don't see any reason to remove it.  Discussions like these educate us all and establish the facts which can then be used to later help others.

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Precisely. This is a discussion forum where everyone helps us all in many ways. Stu, I hope you take my contribution as affirmation. It is fascinating to see that h.p. peak would occur at 100 mph if the numbers coincide. That is the way the attempt would have to be engineered. The gearset would have been made in EXACTLY the specific ratio, and corroboration by using data and mathematics is enlightening. There will always be a number of forum participants who are fascinated by even the most obscure, or minute detail concerning any topic. Speed records are not as obscure as many topics fully ventilated here. We all love talking performance. A good idea is to regard this wonderful and acclaimed forum as a group of friends hanging out in the shop talking car. Or maybe taking a Dr. Pepper break from the grease pit, the old guys with a plug tucked in their lip and spitting in the sawdust. Remember that way back in the '40s when you and dad waited while the car was being lubed at the pit down the block and 'round the corner ? I do. That was at the corner of 57th and Cottage' in Chicago. In the winter, for warmth, they would have a pretty good fire going in the big trash barrel. That is where I would hang out.

 

Stu, please regard all this discussion as great interest in a speed record most of us never heard of. I, along with many here, old, young, and in between, am particularly fond of the "Nickel era" cars. There are VERY few as cool and well preserved as your Hudson. By the way, what is the meaning of hood and fenders "Japan" ?

 

Please do not delete. GREAT car, fine discussion. I hope an AACA member buys your Hudson. I wish I could.     -   Carl 

 

P.S. Are you saying that the 2 record cars had 4 speed overdrive transmissions, or does yours also ? And does your car also have a 2.75, or 3:1 gearset ?

Edited by C Carl
Add P.S. (see edit history)
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Stu, I don't have a dog in this fight.  So please take these words as meant.

 

  Questioning a post is normal. Did the poster make a typo?  WE don't know.  Is the one doubting,questioning wrong in the assumption? Perhaps.  For me, I enjoy the challenge of proving something with facts. And I have proven myself wrong a FEW times. 

 

  Agree with C. C.

 

  Great car, btw.

 

  Ben

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3 hours ago, oldcarnut said:

Marty. Yes I screwed up and forgot the 1/2 behind the 4 to make it 4 1/2. I have been very carful on my description of this car as I want the new owner to have the pleasure releasing it. The final drive ratio is 2.75 to 1, my be closer to 3 to 1. I measured it on my back.  ALL YOU EXPERTS,DONT KNOW THE FACTS. I gave a hint with Mulford. I have all the letters etc. unbelievable what a 4 speed with overdrive does. I am sorry that I put this great original, historic car on this site to be criticized, and my integrity put in question. I will remove it asap. Stu Laidlaw

 

Please don't remove it. The car is beautiful, and I very much enjoyed seeing it. I did wonder whether you meant your car had 2.75, or just that some special version back in the day did. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

Many of us with prewar cars wish we had a little higher gearing than was usually provided back then, and I enjoy the gear ratio discussions. Even though I was not in the middle of this one, I am sorry you saw it as a slight. Thank you again for posting, and I hope you continue to do so in the future.

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1 hour ago, Dave Fields said:

A Paige of similar vintage with 66-70 up exceeded 100 mph. But the record car was a 2 seater speedster called Daytona, and to get to that speed the headlights and fenders were removed

Dave, as I've mentioned elsewhere, the Paige 6-66 owner's manual claims a 4.55 axle for all body styles, and my 1922 6-66 Larchmont II 4-passenger phaeton is screaming at 40 mph.  The record-setting Paige (and I have a photo of it in front of the San Francisco delaership) just HAD to have 2.75 or so final drive gears which would be ineffective at best for everyday driving.  So just perhaps the Paige and Hudson "record-setting" cars were modified in their gearing.  I'm confident in asserting that 100 mph speeds, or anything close, could not be achieved with factory gears no matter how much sheet metal and lamp units they stripped off.

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I made an earlier post on this thread and thought that would be all I had to say. However I can't let it go. I have a 1923 Hudson Speedster (four passenger touring). I have been on Glidden tours as well as VMCCA nickel tours with my car and  I can vouch for the power and reliability of these Hudsons. Without undue modesty I am here to tell you that these old Hudsons will run away and hide from anything else. Buicks, Cadillacs even (shudder) Packards!  Seventy six horse power, counter balanced crankshaft,cork clutch running in oil, what a machine!  If I didn't already own one, i would buy this car and tour it for all it was worth. All the quibbling about gearing is just nonsense.

Sorry to blow on and on. I'll get down off my soapbox now.(Has anyone seen my cane?)  Zeke

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Was a 4 passenger touring also called the speedster?  

 

absolutely! have an early 20's title to prove it.

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On 2/25/2019 at 7:17 AM, oldcarnut said:

Marty. Yes I screwed up and forgot the 1/2 behind the 4 to make it 4 1/2. I have been very carful on my description of this car as I want the new owner to have the pleasure releasing it. The final drive ratio is 2.75 to 1, my be closer to 3 to 1. I measured it on my back.  ALL YOU EXPERTS,DONT KNOW THE FACTS. I gave a hint with Mulford. I have all the letters etc. unbelievable what a 4 speed with overdrive does. I am sorry that I put this great original, historic car on this site to be criticized, and my integrity put in question. I will remove it asap. Stu Laidlaw

 

Stu,

 

First, my compliments on a fine car - wish I had room for it beside my 1915 Hudson 6-40 and Packard 7-Passenger Dual Windshield Touring.

My prior note was not intended as a criticism - just a reference with regard to tire size, and a link to one of the specification resources. I certainly didn't mean to offend you with the reference option - a usually reliable one which helps many on several forum sites (forae?).

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Just a word about the Classic Car Database that Marty referenced.

I have looked up each of my cars in this database and have found errors in every listing.

It's a good place to start, but not infallible.

 

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