Barn Find!

[GeneR]

Hi, I have made a barn find and do not want to say too much about it publicly, please forgive me.  I need advice so I can move before it is gone.  Please message me or call me at 202-674-1445.  Thanks!

[auburnseeker]

So did you find a Pierce arrow and a stutz or just one or the other? 

[Matt Harwood]

Yes, Amerikanski, please send many dollars for barn find. Much nice cars! Too good to tell about here. Call with credit card numbers and I will tell all!

[marc1122]

Oh yes! Unearthed in an old east coast estate that has been forgotten about for decades! But can’t give any pictures or information.

is there not a way to keep these deadbeats off this site???

[edinmass]

I spoke to him and offered information on both cars. He is legit. He sent me photos, but as a I don’t have permission to share them, I won’t. I gave him numbers of current market buyers on the cars, not sure what he will do.  I have no interest in either car. The “Stutz” is a Blackhawk Sedan. Barn find condition, the Pierce is strictly parts. Just my opinion, but the guy is familiar with old machines and can make his way from what I gave him for information. No, I didn’t offer or want a location on either car, they are near the  coast on the eastern seaboard. He should be fine figuring things out from here. Ed

[alsancle]

37 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 The “Stutz” is a Blackhawk Sedan. 

 

See, I knew that from the very first post.  

[GeneR]

Matt/Mark, I was worried I'd be perceived this way, but I am trying to keep quiet until I decide whether to buy one or both.  Ed said it all.  Both cars are there, I accidentally posted on both threads, only intended to post to Stutz.  Friend's estate, if I don't buy I'll try to help his wife sell.

[marc1122]

I apologize if I branded you mistakenly. But I have run across so many scams in my search for cars and parts it makes a fellow somewhat jaded when a posting like yours appears. I am sure you understand where I am coming from. Best of luck with your pursuit.

[ksparks]

good luck...value varies of course of if it a 6 or 8, customer body, condition, open, closed etc...i hope you get it.

[edinmass]

He ended up buying the Blackhawk. I sent him an application for the Stutz club. His plan is to clean it up and drive it as is.

[GeneR]

Ok, paperwork is all done, so I will post a few poor photos (light not great in barn).  I’ll post more when I get tired that hold air and get it moved to my place. 

 

VIN L6-1-DW-51C

motor 16527

 

deadbeat no more!!

[GeneR]

Tires....I’m tired too...

[GeneR]

and..deadbeat a joke, I like it!!  

[ksparks]

good job...that is a real barn find

[alsancle]

Nice.  Be sure to join the Stutz club.  Hopefully you can get it running.   First cosmetic task is to get rid of that red paint.

[GeneR]

I don't like the red, but its not just slapped on either. It was well done and appears to be done before the data plate was riveted on.  So, if it was done during some engine overhaul long ago, as far as i am concerned it is part of the history of the car.

 

I could be wrong.

[GeneR]

Maybe we'll find out that red was the signature of a particular overhaul shop or replacement engine provider...

[Hupp36]

Take the  drain  plug in the pan out. This  will  give  you an  idea  how  much  crap is  in the  oil. As  a personal  thing , I  always drop the  pan  and  check  all the  engine bearings clearances and  clean  all the  sediment that  may  be in the  pan. LOOK for  any  metal such  as  broken cotter  keys  as  this  would  be  an  indication that  maybe  there is  a loose  nut  somewhere and  not  behind  the  steering  wheel.  Ha  Ha

[GeneR]

Yea, I’ve already been advised to drop the pan, pull the head. I’ll also pull the differential cover, clean/inspect and put in correct oil. Of course gas tank is shiny but full of gunk, rebuild carb...

 

its gonna be a long time before I even think of running it.  Today I am cleaning around it and making a path to the door.  Get it on blocks to remove wheels and get some usablectires/tubes on it. 

 

Im still trying to figure out exactly what I have here...

[GeneR]

couple more photos from today. Mostly cleaning up around the car making a path out of the barn. Taking stock of what is there and what missing.  Have to order new tubes, couldn’t get but one tire to hold air....

[trimacar]

I wouldn't be shocked if the red was original color for the engine.  Stutz liked making their engines "pop", so to speak, and often dressed them up to be flashy....

 

It was an interesting comparison at a recent gathering in Gettysburg, when both Stutz and Marmon clubs had displays of cars.  Stutz very flashy, including engines, and Marmon very sedate, with few exceptions.

 

Nice find, you'd have to be nuts to not like a Stutz.....

[alsancle]

I have never seen a red Stutz engine so I'm  not so sure about that.  Maybe Jason can comment.   I'll admit that on the list of things to do,  I wouldn't make painting the engine a priority.  Stutz is a great marque and even the Blackhawk is considered a full CCCA Classic.   That means it is welcome at all Classic Car Club of America events and would be great to see.

 

That engine with the OHC is about as cool a six banger as you will see in a prewar car.

[John_Mereness]

I agree with dropping the pan (Olsen's may have a gasket and that could save you a little time https://www.olsonsgaskets.com/).   I have been using Classic Car Club Motor Oil - our CCCA region brews it via D/A. lubricants www.classiccarmotoroil.com/   (sidenote:  It is 40 weight and you may eventually find you have to run the car with 50 weight).    I probably would not check the rod clearance unless upon running it you hear something you do not like or you have low oil pressure.   I also saw someone said pull the head - I would avoid that too for as long as possible.   

 

I would pull the valve cover and make sure that is "clean" and make sure you have no stuck valves.  By the way, best to turn it over for a while with the hand crank verses the starter (I suspect there is a tool box under the front seat or somewhere in front compartment).   Most of the original stuff i have revived I just leave the hand crank in it and turn over for a few minutes every night for a good long while before I ever try to start. 

 

Hopefully engine is not stuck - if it is you can usually get it free (just have to figure out where problem exactly is), but use the hand crank and a lot of care (a local fellow pulled one of his finds around the yard with his lawn tractor and then called crying as ... - lets just say he created a HUGE problem for himself).  For stuck stuff I use an ATF and lacquer thinner combo. 

 

You should also change the transmission fluid and the rear axle fluid.

 

You probably will have to get into the water pump, but I would get it running first (make sure not stuck though).  After getting it running, then I would get into boiling out radiator, replacing hoses, belts, and...)

 

Grease the car (also the shocks probably need oiled too, as well as U joints and ....).

 

I use Penrite Steering Box Lube via www.restorationstuff.com/ 

 

Use a rubberized cork gasket in the vacuum tank - I see a lot of people use paper and paper just does not work.

 

In the tube, flap  and tire department - get whatever suits you (blackwalls, whitewalls, double whitewalls, whatever brand you like and...). Keep in mind the size tire on it could be wrong - for years people used whatever they could find.  When installing I usually put Johnson's baby Power in a garbage bag and drop in tube and flap and give bag a good shake.  I also talc the tire casings - never had a problem in well over 100K miles of AACA and CCCA touring. And, I know you want a survivor car, but replace all 5 tires (I have had a few cars that people never did the 5 and then a few more years goes by and you cannot get X brand any longer and have to replace all or you go to sell and the next buyer dings you on your price - which basically they are just in doing). 

 

Use super care with the carburator - often they have die cast parts.

 

And, I would run it off a gas can to start.

 

Kind of do not mind the red engine

 

MAKE SURE YOU LOOK IN EVERY CORNER OF THE GARAGE FOR PARTS - ASK IF THEY HAVE ANY MANUALS FOR IT, ASK FOR THE KEYS, AND ... I have found tools for cars I have bought in the drawer in the kitchen, sitting on the workbench in basement, and ....

 

[GeneR]

Keep all of the advice coming!  I am mostly an antique airplane guy (as was my deceased friend) and I have several airplane projects in the works at the same time.... but I have always LOVED the old cars and could not pass on this one.  It is going to be a while before I can spend much on it.  I need to get it rolling right now to get it home, I am wrestling with the whole buy 5 tire thing mentioned above, so I totally get it.  Right now, three "roller" tires will get me home.  I am enjoying just playing with it now and learning a LOT in the process. I love picking through the parts, I am finding Pierce parts in the back seat, and parts from differing Stutz cars as well (EdinMa is going to be sorry he gave me his number!)  The hand crank was in a sewn pouch next to the rear seat, for some reason.  I pulled lightly, but no budge..I am not going to force it.  I'll put some oil in cylinders and let it sit for a while.  It will be a long time before I even think about starting it, I will not do any damage to it beforehand.

 

I am trying to identify the Pierce parts and gather them to help my friend's wife sell it for a reasonable price, I'm having fun with the Stutz (it has a 1929 Setchell Carlson "Karadio" in it with a remote head, the most bizarre thing I have ever seen!)  I look forward to sharing progress, asking for advice, and begging/trading for parts.

 

Thanks Everyone!

Gene

[John_Mereness]

As to stuck +rings, valves, lifters(which I believe you do not have), some cars with die cast distributor housings, and water pumps are usually the guilty parties - take the valve cover off and start oiling, as well as down the spark plug holes (again, I am a big fan of Automatic Transmission Fluid and I have added to that such as PB Blaster and also lacquer thinner).  If rings and they do not break free with the hand crank (and do not "stand" on the crank), then you can often put the car in gear and every time you walk by it give it a little shove (Leo Gephart when in Dayton, OH use to have a row of cars with stuck engines and that is what his mechanic taught me - fellow helped me on a couple dozen cars over years too). 

 

Also, if you just want "roller" tires, look for a used set on ebay (I will tell you though an aged "hard" tire is a .... to work with though

Edited February 25, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

I looked up the wood wheel rim change on a 1931 Cadillac - rotate value stem to top and then pull lower rim loose - then rotate value stem to bottom and work valve stem area loose.  To install - put valve stem at 8 o'clock working valve stem area first and then rotate valve stem to top and work rest of wheel.

 

If a split rim there is probably a rim spreading tool required to mount and dismount (ie not a fun project).

Edited February 25, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Also, I think your car has a 19" wheel on it, but do not know if a 6.00, 6.50, or 7.00

 

If a 6:50 I have run these tires on Franklin (I found them very nice and 15 years and 6K miles in they still had the molding tits still on tread and scored 99.5 in CCCA - all be I have heard tale of some people complaining that various lots wear faster than other batched over time).  My understanding is that these have not been made in a number of years now and Lucas is selling their old stock and that they also will never be made again (ie GET 5)  https://www.lucasclassictires.com/650-19-LUCAS-Blackwall-301p.htm

 

Also, this Franklin owner listed a set of 6 unused 6:50 x 19 whitewalls on AACA (they came in a 1930 Packard lot he recently bought) - sidenote the tires were in production from early 1970's under "Custom Classic" brand and whitewalls have not been made in 10 plus years now https://forums.aaca.org/topic/322564-650-x-19-white-wall-tires/

Edited February 25, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Also, the other advice I will give is that if the interior door panel upholstery stands a chance of being used then you should make sure the bezels are free on the window cranks and door handles - otherwise the bezels have a tenancy to spin with the handle and tear the upholstery.

 

Also, be super super careful with the cluster in the center of the steering wheel (a lot of fragile die cast metal and bakelite). 

 

The cluster for the instruments is also super fragile - a fair number of people needed this fellow, though I am sure other people have made over time:  http://www.vintageandclassicreproductions.com/Stutz.htm

Edited February 25, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[edinmass]

The good news is the left rear tire is only flat on the bottom. Just get some NOS air and all should be fine........

 

Checking for some used tires for you back home today..........I'll let you know asap.........Ed

[GeneR]

“not a fun job” is right!  Flat on one side and hard as a rock is NOT coming off. Tried cutting with sawsall, not touching rim of course, but not off yet. 

 

Ordrred tubes but might have made a mistake....brass or rubber stems??  I’ve had rubber stems be too fat for hole in rim on antique airplane rims.  Ones on car are brass, centered, straight... Quick, anyone know which is correct so I can change order??  (I ordered rubber without thinking)

[Hupp36]

Brass would  be  more  correct.

[GeneR]

1 hour ago, GeneR said:

 

After advice and talking with Coker staying with rubber just for “roller” tires 

[John_Mereness]

On 2/25/2019 at 8:56 AM, GeneR said:

After advice and talking with Coker staying with rubber just for “roller” tires 

You may need a "longer" stem via a wooden wheel (or may have to add a stem extension - may take some experimentation.

[Hupp36]

Getting  your  tubes  from  Coker tire, If  you  gave  them  what car  you  were  working on they  would  give  you  the  correct stem length you  needed.

[GeneR]

Actually, no, Coker had never heard of a wooden wheel where the stem doesn’t go through a wooden rim...  Not a problem, I could use either, I just went for the cheaper rubber stems for “roller” wheels

 

 

[Hupp36]

Must  have  been  a new  sales  person. My  1924 Hupp Model R  sedan  has  the  same  type  as  yours. I  bought  5  new  tires and  tubes about  10  years  ago. Almost  forgot 4 tires  and  tubes  for  my  1929 Hupp Model A  with  wood  wheels  that have the  same  type  as  yours.

[John_Mereness]

That does look like a split rim - there is a special spreading contraption ratcheting type - tool for these rims to get them on and off of the main part of the wheel.  Again, "not a fun task" - just be patient and try your best. My Dad helped his best friend do them on both his Stearns Knight's and swore he would never do another set in his life - my guess is he is holding fast to this plan too.

 

By the way:  Really nice looking wood wheels - I like the pinstripe and good condition too.

 

Sidenote: I see the Stutz has Wards Riverside tires on it (there is some interesting history) - I think Sears sold a  few select sizes up to the  early 1980's and a few select sizes are available still via such as Coker for Model A's and T's, but most likely these are "older than the hills."

[Hupp36]

The  car in the  background  is  a 1923  Willys  Knight. A  guy  in  Fl  just  had to  have this  car  so   I  sold  it   to him.   I  still  have  Toooo many  more.

[AHa]

I'm surprised someone has not already suggested it but I would look at the odometer. I'm assuming it has one. Low mileage suggests the motor is still in good shape. Higher mileage means it might have some problems etc. The odometer should tell you a lot about the condition of the innards.

[GeneR]

Assuming the last digit is a mile and not 10th, 58,890