Hubert_25-25

1925 & Earlier Buick Water Pump Rebuilding Procedure

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Just put a bolt through the impeller with an nylock nut on the other side.  Simple and if you ever want to remove it for any reason, simple.

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Be glad you do not live in Colorado for the price.  Look down about 5 posts.

 

 

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I thought we were working on stuff in the nickel plated and not the gold plated era.  

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The special water pump seals are now in place and working well.  I put about 10 miles on the car until other issues set me to the shoulder of the road, but that is another posting.  I saw a few drips on the water pump shortly after initially starting the car.  When I backed off the brass nut, the inlet seals started to come out of the pump.  I wanted to make something that would

a) hold the seals from coming out

b) that I could remove at a later date if the seal started to leak

c) I could throw packing in the nuts as a back up plan to keep on driving.

I first made this spacer out of PVC because it was easy to make and install and remove.  You can see the lip seals behind the PVC. 

Then I realized that it might not be able to take the heat long term.  I went to look for CPVC, but could not find sch 10 (thinner wall).   So I cut these out of copper pipe.  The split in the ring determines the ring diameter.  I put a rubber O ring in for good measure and to keep it aligned.  They are a little finicky to install, but I can remove them if needed without pulling the pump apart.  

Photo 1 shows the bronze bushing, the 2 lip seals, and the little bit of ledge that is left over after cutting back the bronze bushing for the lip seals.

Photo 2 shows the PVC spacer.

Photo 3 shows the copper spacer and the rubber O ring.  Both have a single cut to allow removal.  The copper spacer does not touch the shaft.  

 

After all that I have gone thru on my water pump, I feel that I need to completely go thru my procedure on water pump rebuilding as a lot has changed to get me to this point.  I will repost it once I get some time.  

Hugh  

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All right all,

I have to ask — there’s a LOT of wonderful information online about ‘rebuilding’ one of these water pumps (and beautiful photos of these things already taken apart with no mention of certain critical things such as the fan drive pulley) — but how in the hay do you simply repack the packing nuts?

On my 1918 E-35 I first tried to loosen the nuts and repack on the shaft but there simply is no room. It doesn’t exist.

Is it necessary to remove the shaft to repack these nuts? If so, do you have to remove the timing gear cover. If so, how do you remove that diabolical fan driving pulley?

Just thought I’d ask since as you can tell I already removed the bolts and probably went too far already. On second thoughts I tried to put them back on while I studied up on this.... After an hour of not getting it to line back up enough to get more than any 2 back on I put the tools away and called it a day. I can’t afford to get frustrated around this particular machine. I’ve learned this after removing its radiator from its (near-exact fit) shell.

That bill should be coming any day now....and I’m not ready to talk about it🙂

Thanks!

Ben P.

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Ben:

 Yes things look more crowded on your earlier 4 cylinder than on either of my 6s. where the packing nut is concerned.

DSCF7218.thumb.JPG.2e268be14076bddb0b5648053efc5cec.JPG 

Plenty of room to unscrew the nuts to add packing on both my 1925s

.DSCF7363.thumb.JPG.e36334898d9df5ea0fea34b3900d5b56.JPG  With bearings and couplings pulled back prior to removal.

 My advice since you have gone this far is to remove the entire pump and have a new stainless shaft and new bushings made.

 See the thread Mark Kikta has about his 1922 water pump. This is what your pumps shaft probably looks like...

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These shaft surfaces should be perfectly smooth.

 

 To get your front cover off.

 You must remove the pulley nut first and use a gear puller to remove the pulley. I had done this already on my 1925 Standard WHILE THE RADIATOR WAS STILL IN PLACE. I was able to use forked wedges to get behind the pulley to drive it off uniformly. I did this to replace the original leaking felt seal with a modern lip seal. It works great . No leaks. 1053452653_frontpulleysealinstalled20362.thumb.jpg.e0a9f990a2f9129b1a0e96e26ee049e8.jpg   Photo is from another forum posters car.

Except 6 months later the head developed an oil leak so I jumped into a full rebuild.

 I am about at the same point with my 1925 Master. (The timing gear needs replaced.) I will have to disconnect my exhaust down pipe, loosen the engine mount to the frame bolts. Then, when I disconnect the front engine mount bolts on the crank stub I can raise the engine a bit to clear the frame .

 Best Of Luck!

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75 miles on the Buick and I took it for a long drive (10 miles) to see how it would do with a little speed and distance.  It would do 50 mph, but preferred 45 mph.  I had driven it at 45 mph for a few miles a couple of days earlier and it seemed to run well.  On the return trip I saw some spots on the windshield (my hood is not on yet).  Then I looked down across the windshield and I could see antifreeze streaming out of the rear water pump packing nut.  We pulled over.  The bright finish from the packing nut was gone, and the paint discolored at the outlet threads.  I tightened the nut a few turns. but that only slowed the leak to a smaller leak but would not stop it.  We towed it home.  I had spun the rear water pump bushing and the heat just melted the rear water pump seals.  All that was left were the springs from the 2 rear lip seals.  Upon disassembly, the front bushing was also spun as it came right out of the housing and was stuck to the shaft.   The front seals had not gone yet.  So, back to working on the water pump again.  I guess the tolerances were too tight for the heat generated so next time I make the tolerances a little more sloppy - not sure what the tolerances should be other than I can make them less tight.   There was just a little drag on the pump when you spun it.  I am also wondering about the choice of bushing material.  McMaster Carr sells several bearing materials.  The original was some bronze (not oilite).  These are SAE 660 leaded bronze.  The note also says "they are sometimes called 932 bronze bushings".  They also say "lubrication required" The oilite bearing is SAE 841 bronze.  Under lubrication it says "SAE 30 wt".  I will post my notes on getting these bearings off the shaft as well, as it was not easy.  

Hugh 
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Still working on how I really want to do my water pump - again.  I could go back and just increase the tolerances on the bronze pump seal bushings after reinstallation, and hope for the best.  I did purchase a different 3/4" reamer with an adjustable pilot guide which would greatly improve the chances of keeping the line boring correct on a bushed water pump.   The spacing is too far apart for just a standard adjustable reamer. They say this style is supposed to be used when doing king pins as well. 

The Ford model A folks have a lot to teach us about why so many of their cars are still on the road.  It's not just that they built so darn many, but they have been upgrading parts over the years as well to make them more reliable.  Crazy difference in their world to get these 1/2" thick catalogs of parts for model A and model T cars - most every part available, and from multiple vendors.   
  I then read this forum on model A leakless pump seals, and a couple of things struck me.  It seems almost all of them use inexpensive neoprene lip seals, and there is also a real variety of bearing designs used. 

 

https://www.fordbarn.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18945&showall=1

 

Another thing that I find strange about my Buick water pump bushings is that there are no grease connections.  I honestly think that the grease would wash away rather quickly anyway, but many other cars of this era have these.   By the way,  At max engine RPM (2800) the water pump spins at 4200 rpm.  The fan spins at 5600 rpm.    

So I plan to only reinstall the bushings to use them for maintaining the end play on the impeller.  I am also looking into doing a lip seal conversion and using ball bearings.  The following shows the layout that I am working on.  My pump has a packing nut on each side, and all this fits in the packing nuts.  

Hugh

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Dave,

   Thanks for the above note.  I am taking another stab at the bronze bushing again as using a ball bearing design is providing it's own challenges.  Some major changes that I will eventually incorporate into the revised rebuilding procedure.  The biggest being setting the Inside diameter for the bronze bushing.  I found this tolerances table of fits provided by South Bend.  I also decided to go with the oilite bearing from McMaster Carr rather than the solid bronze.  The oilite bearing is slightly shorter than stock, but only needed a light touch on the face to provide a little more end play, and an undercut behind the flange.  Both modifications could be done without the use of a lathe.  The bushing was .002 oversized as shipped and it pulled right into the housing.  This made the space for my lip seals a little longer, but that was an easy fix to extend the seal holder.  The difference that I am banking on is that I am also using a long piloted reamer.  This allows me to get the reaming operation straight.  I think I did a decent job of this last time, but not as uniform as the long pilot provides.  The other item is that I opened the bearing clearance to +.002 of the shaft size.  On the previous build, I reamed it until the shaft would rotate, but there was possibly a little drag on the bushings.  No wonder the bushings seized when they got a little warmer.  Given that the shaft is 3/4", +.002 for the bushing is noticable that I have allowed some room for thermal expansion.  You can see the shaft move side to side in the bushing slightly, and I could not see that before.  My micrometer can also barely catch the end of the bushing now to take the ID measurement, but there is just enough.     Hugh 

         

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Since it’s on topic, I see Bob’s has water pump rebuild kits, anyone know if their rebuild kit has a stainless shaft?  I’ll give them a call Monday but just curious if anyone knows in the meantime?

 

i have an extra water pump that I am going to rebuild but don’t mind doing it myself if their kit is worth it.....

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