How important is the GS option?

[Buffalowed Bill]

In my collection I have two Rivieras a 1963 and an all original 1965. There appears to be more then enough first gen Rivieras, that have survived, to satisfy everyone who really wants one ( at least four or five times the expected survival rate of an American production car). For someone willing to wait it seems that a buyer can find about anything he wants color, condition, price and local.

 

Maybe not unsurprisingly the 1965 GS seems to the holy grail  for Riv fans. I hope my observation is not mis-characterizing the car's appeal. Correct me if you don't agree, but this has been my observation nonetheless. So my question is how important is the GS option, when it comes down to choosing a car, when condition, year, originality and color etc. are factored in?

Bill

[bodayguy]

Gotta disagree on it being easy to find a first-gen car. Certainly not unless you are willing to search nationally.

[lrlforfun]

OK Riviera People: First-Gen Rivs for sale grow on trees in many areas.  The problem?  Most are obscenely overpriced. The ones priced at market disappear quickly and that's why one wouldn't see it listed for sale.   Mitch

[PWB]

Prestige, having the best of the best. 

When someone reaches that affordability point it is his or her time to go for it.

 

Bucket list item for many? 

Good condition Rivieras mostly stay with owners and their families a long time.

 

 

 

[Chimera]

A solid condition, 65 Gran Sport is actually not easy to find IMO. I search high and low for my cousin for years and finally found a numbers matching GS Burgundy Mist in Canada. The guy would not budge off $60K...not a single coin. I have a specific color combination GS Riviera I would be interested in and have never seen it for sale.

 

Some might prefer the non-GS. The ride is much more smooth or floaty and the gear ratio makes more sense. Some might think little red badges on the side are childish and unnecessary distraction. Its the human psychology that loves the higher ranking labels and performance "Bigger = better!" Then again if you have a Buick Riviera that has options associated with the GS, but it does not have the GS badging, then maybe it does not matter. Im trying to think what you could not get without GS from factory...maybe quick steering for example.

 

Bottom line though: Hell yeah GS makes a difference! As a collector it helps to keep value up for investment. Just look at the difference in form and function at the non-Gran vs Gran engine compartment. The super cool aluminum valve covers, double snort air cleaner compared to the everyday looking 425 treatment. I actually think Buick underplayed the Super-wildcat engine. They should have had special badging just for that on the vehicles. SUPER WILDCAT GRAN SPORT! They should have offered a Super Wildcat edition in 67 with a giant carb. (under a giant aluminum Star Wars!), 396HP, supered up trans., quick steering, paint colors only available to it, and something else really cool! 

 

I would say, what activates the imagination and excitement...does matter in a vehicle option. 

[1965rivgs]

  What color combo?...maybe I could help make your dreams come true...lol...

  H2 option available on any Riv...GS option was not mandatory but Buick marketed it pretty heavily in conjunction with the GS option.

Tom

[Buffalowed Bill]

Maybe a little to premature, but so far I seem to be hearing that there isn't a Riviera for every legitimate purchaser. If that's correct, then how is it that a gentleman responding to a previous thread indicated that he had looked at 30 cars, over several years, before he found the right one for him? There are numerous cars in my collection that finding 30 cars like them, in my lifetime, would be impossible. In fact I would go so far as to say that none of my 25 collector cars, could I find 30 of, in several years.They're either hard to find, or there are many from which to choose, both can't be true.

Edited February 13, 2019 by Buffalowed Bill (see edit history)

[Chimera]

23 minutes ago, 1965rivgs said:

  What color combo?...maybe I could help make your dreams come true...lol...

  H2 option available on any Riv...GS option was not mandatory but Buick marketed it pretty heavily in conjunction with the GS option.

Tom

Well, you know I am a fan for the Midnight Aqua family!

[Matt Harwood]

The market wants what the market wants. The 1965 GS seems to carry about a 30% premium over the standard Rivs. Low production (about 10% of the total) and the suggestion of more performance (whether there's actually notably more is irrelevant) will drive collectors to want those cars and to pay a premium for them. Same reason the SJ Duesenbergs command a premium over the "standard" Js and Super Eight Packards are more valuable than Standard Eight Packards. Driving experience not notably different, but the difference in price is substantial just because of what it is. I suspect that's not a surprise to any of us here.

 

As to whether these cars are common enough to be growing on trees, I think they are plentiful but with a caveat: truly exceptional cars are not. A lot of Rivs have technically "survived" but a majority of them are still just used cars, maybe even used up cars. Restoring one is astronomically expensive and good, clean, original, low-mileage cars are uncommon, as they are with all makes and models. If you want an exceptional Riv, be prepared to search and be prepared to spend a premium. If you want one in a specific color or with particular options, well, then it'll get that much harder. Again, I doubt this is news to any of the experienced hobbyists here.

 

For example, I sold this one:

 

for about twice as much as this one:

 

Why? The yellow one was a '65 and it was in far better condition. The white car had needs, the yellow car did not. The white car had a lot of miles, the yellow car had very few. Even though the white car had working A/C and the yellow car had no A/C, the yellow '65 was still far more marketable and desirable--I had guys fighting over it @ $40,000. If the yellow car had been a GS, I bet I could have gotten four, maybe even five times as much as the white car.

 

The Riviera has arrived. If you have one, ride the wave and enjoy your car paying you back for using it. If you always wanted one, well, they're not going to get cheaper so buy one now. And if you're like me and always wanted one but figured that you'd be able to pick one up when the mood hit you, well, get used to not owning one. I should have kept that yellow one, but I wanted one with A/C. Now I'm probably priced out of the market unless I want to give up one of my other cars. A tough decision because a good Riv is a very special car.

[RivNut]

The cars must be out there. Just take a look at what's showing up on the ROA's Facebook page.  What I'm trying to figure out is what percent of the Facebook members are ROA members.  

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, Chimera said:

A solid condition, 65 Gran Sport is actually not easy to find IMO. I search high and low for my cousin for years and finally found a numbers matching GS Burgundy Mist in Canada. The guy would not budge off $60K...not a single coin. I have a specific color combination GS Riviera I would be interested in and have never seen it for sale.

 

Some might prefer the non-GS. The ride is much more smooth or floaty and the gear ratio makes more sense. Some might think little red badges on the side are childish and unnecessary distraction. Its the human psychology that loves the higher ranking labels and performance "Bigger = better!" Then again if you have a Buick Riviera that has options associated with the GS, but it does not have the GS badging, then maybe it does not matter. Im trying to think what you could not get without GS from factory...maybe quick steering for example.

 

Bottom line though: Hell yeah GS makes a difference! As a collector it helps to keep value up for investment. Just look at the difference in form and function at the non-Gran vs Gran engine compartment. The super cool aluminum valve covers, double snort air cleaner compared to the everyday looking 425 treatment. I actually think Buick underplayed the Super-wildcat engine. They should have had special badging just for that on the vehicles. SUPER WILDCAT GRAN SPORT! They should have offered a Super Wildcat edition in 67 with a giant carb. (under a giant aluminum Star Wars!), 396HP, supered up trans., quick steering, paint colors only available to it, and something else really cool! 

 

I would say, what activates the imagination and excitement...does matter in a vehicle option. 

It's an enigma.  The really rare non-Gran Sport with the Super Wildcat engine (454 of them were made) brings not much more than a basic 65 Riviera in the same condition. Most people think the Gran Sport is some "Super Car" rather than acknowledging that is was an option, that didn't cost an arm and a leg either.  Fewer dollars for the Gran Sport option than the cost of air conditioning.  $400 for the a/c compared to $297 for the Gran Sport option. 

[jframe]

I don't think they are easy to find at all. At least not in my part of the woods. I have wanted one since I first learned to ride a bicycle. Finally found mine when I was 46. Got lucky and got a great car that only has 68,000 miles on it now. As far as the GS option is concerned, mine is not one, and I really could care less. The Gran Sport is VERY appealing, but trying to find someone around here who can sync up ONE carb, much less two, is a challenge. As far as I am concerned, the 1965 Riviera, either Gran Sport or standard is THE car of the Sixties to own. This car oozes class and style to me, regardless of drivetrain. Mine handles well, due to all new suspension and springs with gas shocks, and I really couldn't ask for more power out of the 401. However, my ultimate dream 65 would be a Midnight Blue model with black interior, simply because my Dad had one new, and it was one of his favorite vehicles.

[Pat Curran]

First generation Riviera's (including the GS) are out there and there are examples for every budget.  Condition will always dictate the price, GS or not.  Yes the GS is worth about 30% more than the standard Riviera with conditions being equal.  If someone wants a perfect original specimen, the search will take longer and the price will be higher.  It all depends on what an individual wants in his or her car.  There are enough driver quality cars on the market at all times.  If you want perfection, you will have to be patient.  The 65 GS will always be the holy grail.

 

As Matt Harwood pointed out above with regard to the Duesenberg, he is absolutely correct.  There are many other examples out there that support this.  A Judge will cost more than a base GTO, an SS454 Monte Carlo will cost more than the base model.  A Grand Prix SJ is more valuable than the J.  The list goes on and on.  Even base models are worth more if they are equipped with the biggest engines offered in their respective years.  Big block Corvettes need no explanation.  Have you witnessed the huge increase in the values of Boss 429 Mustang's over the last several years?  Mach 1's can't hold a candle to them!  At the end of the day, it all comes down to the basic economics of supply and demand.

[Seafoam65]

 As a point of reference, I started looking for a low mileage perfect original interior 65 Riviera in 2003. I knew going in

that this would be difficult at best. I didn't want a restored car, just a babied all it's life low mileage car with never any rust, which meant

it couldn't have been driven in the rain much and no winters at all. It took me ten years to find mine,  so I would say that there is a plentiful

supply of beaters, lots of nice restored GS Rivieras, lots of nice restomod  base engine Rivieras, and very  very few nice babied  low mileage original  base engine cars out there. 

Edited February 13, 2019 by Seafoam65 (see edit history)

[68RIVGS]

I agree 100% with Pat's synopsis;  At the end of the day, it al comes down to supply and demand !

[60FlatTop]

16 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

Driving experience not notably different, but the difference in price is substantial just because of what it is.

In Matt's two pictured cars you can see one is in lesser condition. It doesn't "pop". Swap the picture for an equal '64 and they will get much closer in eye appeal.

 

Objectively the performance difference isn't great. And the buyers, down the line from original just punched the gas and felt it go- as they would expect from most Buicks. If a sales manager threw in an order for a GS in the mid '60's the new car buyer was probably more interested in the color than the option.

 

I rode my bicycle home from the Buick dealership with a brochure in the basket, a couple years short of driving age. At the time I liked the big Classics of the 1930's and the large Buicks and Caddies. My personal preference, at the time, was a new black Electra pillared sedan in the showroom. I still look at my '64 as a "small" Buick. I had '66 and '68 Rivieras before I bought my '64. Those second generation ones had memorably more elbow room.

 

For me the '65 lost some of the original concept. I like my little side scoops, sculptured bumpers, and Europeanish small taillights. The hidden headlights were the hot thing in the '60's but the '80's and '90's popularity of hidden headlights kind of blase. Even Hondas had them. Today an array of four round headlights is something really different.

 

One thing that has helped the survival rate is those door skins that let water run out. The front fenders have a good drainage valley designed into them. So the only real rot issues are from the rear window leaks, fairly easy to fix.

 

In May I will have owned mine for 41 years. They really are keepers. Two four barrels and a suspension option, nice but not necessary for the type of car it is. Besides, mine is sitting in a warm garage next to the other car with a 6 liter, 438 HP, four cam, 48 valve, direct injected engine and a 6 speed transmission that feels like a Dynafow. I'm happy with just one four barrel on the Riviera.

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Buffalowed Bill]

Thank's guys for the input, it kind of verifies my own observations. A special thanks to Matt for actually quantifying the monetary differences, highlighting the current market, and for projecting his take on the Riviera's future market. 

 

I happen to treasure original cars, and try to keep them mostly as I find them, or return them to the way they were when produced. Condition is far more important then options, color or special issues, like the GS, but it's not the only thing that I consider. I hope it doesn't sound smug, but I don't go looking for many cars, the cars find me. When I find the right car, I usually know it. Stumbling on my low mileage original 1965 Riv was an amazing opportunity, that I couldn't pass up. Exchanging it for lesser car, just because it was a GS, would seem to me a backward step.

 

  At 75 ya, I'm not an active buyer and I've never done vary well selling, but who knows what's around the corner. For now I'm just happy with what I have.

Bill

[Chimera]

2 hours ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Thank's guys for the input, it kind of verifies my own observations. A special thanks to Matt for actually quantifying the monetary differences, highlighting the current market, and for projecting his take on the Riviera's future market. 

 

I happen to treasure original cars, and try to keep them mostly as I find them, or return them to the way they were when produced. Condition is far more important then options, color or special issues, like the GS, but it's not the only thing that I consider. I hope it doesn't sound smug, but I don't go looking for many cars, the cars find me. When I find the right car, I usually know it. Stumbling on my low mileage original 1965 Riv was an amazing opportunity, that I couldn't pass up. Exchanging it for lesser car, just because it was a GS, would seem to me a backward step.

 

  At 75 ya, I'm not an active buyer and I've never done vary well selling, but who knows what's around the corner. For now I'm just happy with what I have.

Bill

 

 

Here here, 

 

I agree Bill; condition might be the most dominate factor when it comes to collecting cars and even more specifically, Rivieras. Of course the holy trinity is condition, options (including color combination in that), and rarity. Enough rust can render an otherwise spectacular vehicle, essentially a lost cause. Yet, in the end, this is a hobby of passion and it depends what turns someones cauldron. GS does matter to a fairly significant amount, what about numbers matching? Most want numbers matching and today it matters seemingly more than ever, but I think it has been an overused phrase and weight given because it is quick to say and applies to all vehicles. Instant expert effect. Numbers matching probably should matter a bit less, because it is literally just a number stamped and although it can be a decent indicator for what the vehicle has been through, is does not indicate much with certainly. 

 

Thank you for the discussion, because I think many of us that are obsessed tend to forget that the grass is not always green on the other Riviera. A healthy response is often to appreciate the beauty in the driveway. I love these cars.

 

[jsgun]

For me, the GS is just an interesting package, but nothing I want. My 64 will be a semi-daily driver, i'd only take a dual 4bbl if it was given to me and then i'd sell it to a collector. The power to fuel economy ratio isn't worth it. I like the idea of the suspension package that came with GS's, and i'll eventually do mods to mine to get at or past that level. But the GS premium just isn't worth what you get. The Riv doesn't have an equivalent, but most of the SS cars, Judges, and GTO's used stiffer station wagon spec parts for their handling packages.

 

There's a lot of Rivs in SoCal, and they come with SoCal prices. I feel I got very lucky with mine at $9k, and I know how to deal with its problems. I did see a 65 GS listed on CL that was half restored and half apart for 14K, and I wish I had at least looked at it. 

[RivNut]

You can order the H2 (handling package) replacement springs from Coil Spring Specialties. Remember, the H2 option was a stand alone option just like all other options; it did not come as a standard feature with the Gran Sport option. To get a 65 Riviera with the Gran Sport option with the handling option, you would have to check off the boxes for options A9 AND H2.

[Chimera]

Here is a 65 Granny on eBay.

 

In the title it says "Hurry."

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1965-Riviera-GS/273704383650?hash=item3fba0d74a2:g:T1EAAOSwQKdcZ4Ds:rk:30:pf:0&vxp=mtr

[arnulfo de l.a.]

No dual quads

[Buffalowed Bill]

Am I alone in really disliking the stance of this GS on eBay? 

[Rivdrivn]

40 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Am I alone in really disliking the stance of this GS on eBay? 

There’s a lot to dislike on that one

[60FlatTop]

38 minutes ago, Buffalowed Bill said:

Am I alone in really disliking the stance of this GS on eBay? 

 

The car seems to sit right. The goofy wheels with thin strips of rubber on them take away from the appearance.

[65VerdeGS]

On 2/15/2019 at 7:41 PM, jsgun said:

For me, the GS is just an interesting package, but nothing I want. My 64 will be a semi-daily driver, i'd only take a dual 4bbl if it was given to me and then i'd sell it to a collector. The power to fuel economy ratio isn't worth it. I like the idea of the suspension package that came with GS's, and i'll eventually do mods to mine to get at or past that level. But the GS premium just isn't worth what you get. The Riv doesn't have an equivalent, but most of the SS cars, Judges, and GTO's used stiffer station wagon spec parts for their handling packages.

 

There's a lot of Rivs in SoCal, and they come with SoCal prices. I feel I got very lucky with mine at $9k, and I know how to deal with its problems. I did see a 65 GS listed on CL that was half restored and half apart for 14K, and I wish I had at least looked at it. 

Hi Steve,

 

I see you're also own a chrome bumper Corvette!   That makes at least 3 of us here on this forum.  Anyhow, just for your info, the GS dual quad doesn't exact a significant gas milage penalty over the single 4-barrel version.  Yes, the 425 engine is a bit larger, but the main thing is the 2x4 setup runs on the rear carb UNLESS you step on it and bring the front carb into action.  You can drive gently with a GS and get very similar mileage to that of a single 4-barrel car.  On a dual quad car, the front carb is linked to the rear by a progressive linkage so if you don't have a lead foot and drive sanely, the mileage isn't really much different.   A lot of GS owners converted their dual quad to a single 4-barrel in the mistaken belief that they'd enjoy a large mileage increase.  Not so, as it turns out.

 

Now having said that, these cars aren't exactly miserly on fuel.  The BEST mileage I ever got on my GS was 16mpg, driving on the highway, mostly flat ground, not exceeding 60-65mph, and not doing any kickdown passing.  Average mileage in town is about 12mpg.  How do I know?   I drove my GS daily for 10 years, so I'm very familiar with how much mileage it gets.  Now that my GS has been  'retired' from active duty, the mileage I gets is not so important.  So, when I feel the need for that torque rush I play with the loud pedal and get a big grin on my face!

😀

 

[RivNut]

The same driver over the same course in the same conditions will not get the same mileage from a Gran Sport than he will from a similarly equipped non-Gran Sport.  The Gran Sport comes with a 3.42 rear gear and the base Riviera was probably equipped with a 3.07 rear gear.  At 70 mph on 28.3" tires (225.75R15) the Grand Sport engine turns 2,918 revolutions every minute it's running.  The non-Gran Sport turns only 2,620 revolutions per minute.  300  more rpms for every minute your driving at the posted speed limit on the highway.    On your way to the next ROA meet if you drive 6 hours @ 70  miles per hour, that's an extra 108,000 rpms per day. Those extra rpm's use extra gas.

Edited February 23, 2019 by RivNut
more (see edit history)

[pyntre]

STEP AWAY FROM THE COMPUTER .... 

 

[RivNut]

[pyntre]

 

[jsgun]

On 2/21/2019 at 10:05 PM, 65VerdeGS said:

Hi Steve,

 

I see you're also own a chrome bumper Corvette!   That makes at least 3 of us here on this forum. ...

😀

 

I wish! I have a 92, the first year of the LT1. I bought it as a daily driver, got an excellent 55k mile car for 5K. With is "modern" fuel injection and computer, I only get 14 mpg around town, and i'm not sure why. I go easy on the pedal, but they seem to only get 18 mpg at best.

[65VerdeGS]

On 2/23/2019 at 10:45 PM, jsgun said:

I wish! I have a 92, the first year of the LT1. I bought it as a daily driver, got an excellent 55k mile car for 5K. With is "modern" fuel injection and computer, I only get 14 mpg around town, and i'm not sure why. I go easy on the pedal, but they seem to only get 18 mpg at best.

 

Hi Steve,

 

My aging eyes thought your signature said you had a '72 Corvette!  Guess I should have read closer, eh?  You have a Corvette, which is good.  Fun cars; I love them all!  

 

Cheers,

 

 

[65VerdeGS]

On 2/22/2019 at 4:39 PM, RivNut said:

The same driver over the same course in the same conditions will not get the same mileage from a Gran Sport than he will from a similarly equipped non-Gran Sport.  The Gran Sport comes with a 3.42 rear gear and the base Riviera was probably equipped with a 3.07 rear gear.  At 70 mph on 28.3" tires (225.75R15) the Grand Sport engine turns 2,918 revolutions every minute it's running.  The non-Gran Sport turns only 2,620 revolutions per minute.  300  more rpms for every minute your driving at the posted speed limit on the highway.    On your way to the next ROA meet if you drive 6 hours @ 70  miles per hour, that's an extra 108,000 rpms per day. Those extra rpm's use extra gas.

 

Hi Ed,

 

Nice math.  I concede.  A Riv with a 3.07 or 3.23 will get better mileage that a GS with its 3.42 rear, but probably not by a HUGE amount.  Taking the ratios alone:

 

A 3.07 rear is 11.4% higher geared than a 3.42

 

A 3.23 rear is 5.6% higher geared than a 3.42

 

So, a GS would consume (theoretically) somewhere in the range of 5-12% more fuel on cruise than the higher geared Rivieras.  Not what I'd consider a huge difference, but a measurable difference nonetheless.

[RivNut]

1 hour ago, 65VerdeGS said:

 

Hi Steve,

 

My aging eyes thought your signature said you had a '72 Corvette!  Guess I should have read closer, eh?  You have a Corvette, which is good.  Fun cars; I love them all!  

 

Cheers,

 

 

The 94 - 96 Buick Roadmaster Estate wagons were equipped with the same LT1 engine as the 'Vette except for the aluminum heads.  My 94 RMW gets between 22 and 24 mpg on the highway depending on whether on on the federal highway headed to my sister's house at 65 mph or running down the Interstate at 75 (so I'm not impeding other traffic.) I get around 18 mpg in the city.  What's the difference  between the mileage you're getting (got) with your 'Vette and what I get with 150K on the clock in my wagon? 

[jsgun]

On 2/25/2019 at 9:20 PM, RivNut said:

The 94 - 96 Buick Roadmaster Estate wagons were equipped with the same LT1 engine as the 'Vette except for the aluminum heads.  My 94 RMW gets between 22 and 24 mpg on the highway depending on whether on on the federal highway headed to my sister's house at 65 mph or running down the Interstate at 75 (so I'm not impeding other traffic.) I get around 18 mpg in the city.  What's the difference  between the mileage you're getting (got) with your 'Vette and what I get with 150K on the clock in my wagon? 

 

I looked up the vette, it's 15 city 23 freeway so I guess i'm not doing that bad. I think the vette has higher flow injectors and fuel pump, and a more aggressive cam. It's factory 300hp. Mine has 2.59 gears in the rear, which seems like a cruel joke. Hey, lets build a performance car, and cripple it with airplane gearing. I guess that was an attempt to get better mpg.

[Buffalowed Bill]

I'm a little older then most here, so I drove 50's and 60's cars as regular transportation, during the 60's. Today we seem to be dialed into a particular fuel mileage mindset. It's based on a set of standards that has evolved during an era where fuel economy has been an engineering, and real world focus. I can say with a great deal of certainty that fuel economy fifty or sixty years ago, was just not viewed the same way it is today.

 

Most 50's and 60's cars got less then 14 MPG around town and between 16 and 18 MPG on the road. The Buick was not an outlier in this era. They may have been on the low side of the contemporary standards, but that didn't seem to dissuade  people from choosing luxury.  

[60FlatTop]

I have never been able to willingly give up what the 10-12 MPG car of the 1950's and 1960's gave in return. And I can also say that I fill my car much more often at $3.00 per gallon than I did at $0.30 per gallon.

 

I remember in 1973 when Chevrolet retrieved the Opel Kadett from Argentina to badge as a Chevette. The comfort, alone, was just too much to give up. I like fuel injection and overdrive more for the longevity they give than for the mileage.

 

Fill ups for $80 to $100 were making people gasp for breath at the break tables at work. I fill up and set the trip odometer, then fill when it gets around 200 miles. Maybe $35.00 at the peak prices. I used that same amount or more, but never suffered any angst over it.

 

If the price of gas gets too high I will watch Craigslist and buy a Honda or Toyota to flip and make $1,000 or so by selling someone a good gas mileage car. The profit can buy me gas.

 

Bernie

[arnulfo de l.a.]

I like the way you think Bernie!

[60FlatTop]

Yeah, I would cut a cord of wood for the exercise, sell it, and use the money to buy natural gas. Cynical Economics 101.