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1920's Lake Maroon Paint Help


ryan95

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Hello everyone, this is my first ever forum post, so go easy on me if i do something incorrect. I am looking for help from anyone who knows anything about "lake" maroon paints from the 1920's. I am restoring my neighbor's 1923 Moon touring car. Research has led me to a paint color that could be ordered on the car called "Lake Maroon." There are no known color chips, formulas, or Moons remaining with this original color known to exist. The project car was entirely stripped in 1980 to be restored by a former owner and no traces of any paint remain. What I have heard is that Moon used Dupont paints in that time period. I have read that they were still brush painting cars in varnish in 1923, and found the color was mentioned in literature at least from 1922-24. A restorer gave me his theory that Moon likely used a standard color that Dupont carried, and called it what they wanted. Do any of you have any input on what lake maroon might have been, or know of anyone who has color chips of early twenties Dupont automotive finishes?

 

Even non-Dupont paints are helpful in gaining insight to what it might have looked like. Buick used various maroons, but had one in '24 they called "Carmine Lake". Second, Wills Saint Claire had a maroon that they called "Princess Mary Lake," which they used from 22-23. Third, Dodge and Chrysler used a color in 29 and 30 that they called "Light Fast Maroon," which I include because Studebaker used "Orriford Lake Maroon" in 1932, which shares the same Ditzler paint code, IM718. Studebaker also used a color from 23-25, I think, called "Princess Louise Lake." Information on these or any other leads would be appreciated.

 

I will also post some non-dupont color chips of any that seem to have a possible relation to Moon's version "lake maroon." The last three are Ditzler chips, that I found on ebay. Click the links of those three to see them.

 

Please share anything you might know, or anyone who might be more help. TCP Global does not have the information that I am searching for, and most other databases do not go back to the early twenties. Thank you!

 

Edited by ryan95 (see edit history)
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Thank you 1950panhead! I will rephrase that a little better. I am looking for information on pre-1925 Moons. In 1924 Moon changed their paint to spray on Duco lacquers. Before 1924 they brush painted their bodies in varnish. Oddly, lake maroon is mentioned up to 1924, but one theory I heard was that they may have had extra paint to use up. Maybe they did continue using it, I don't know, but 1924 is the newest reference I have of it.

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The paint on the Moon may have been one of the Murphy colors that may of the manufacturers used. The name that Moon used could be a renamed Murphy color.

Go to  autocolorlibrary.com  click on Vintage vehicles then the Murphy  colors. You will find maroon chips, these colors are scanned in and can be a bit off. If you find a similar color(s) they can send samples ( or did a one time).  I have had the same problem with some of the early cars I have worked on with no paint recoreds.

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I plan on having a few of theirs made into samples. At 80 bucks a sample, I am trying to minimize how many I have to order. Sonny Sanchez there is very helpful to me though. Dupont is what I heard was original when Moon was still varnish painting, but anything is possible, that is one person's account, not written have yet. More than likely one of the Murphy colors is close enough to original. I am just in a quest for authenticity. Paint is hard to redo once it's done.

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Is there not one speck of anything left anywhere, even if you were to peel back some of the sheet metal from the wood in a tight spot or some such?  Below is an example of a milligram sized sample magnified 140X.  People with the right tools were able to determine the chemical and pigment composition of the blue layer to verify it was available in the era (and exclude the ones above it) and make an educated guess as to the original color even after the car had been well-stripped and painted red in a prior life.  It's not a cheap process, but if you're militant about it and have no other options, it can be done.

 

  

Paint cross section #1.JPG

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W_Higgins, An old guy stripped and put primer on the entire car before he passed away around 1980. There are no traces left other than some incorrect bright red paint that was brushed over some off the parts. I know it is not original because they got it on some aftermarket wiring that someone did.

 

John, I just discovered Walt and he is checking around for me.

 

29 Franklin, those books would be greatly helpful, especially if they contain anything from the early twenties. I am searching for someone who has access to something like that. Is it possible for me to contact this person you know of?

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13 minutes ago, ryan95 said:

W_Higgins, An old guy stripped and put primer on the entire car before he passed away around 1980. There are no traces left other than some incorrect bright red paint that was brushed over some off the parts. I know it is not original because they got it on some aftermarket wiring that someone did.

 

What you describe is very much the case with the sample above.  Everything was previously "stripped" to bare metal and wood and repainted red when the original color was blue (the bottom layers), but oftentimes nooks and crannies still have trace remains of the original finish hidden underneath.  The sample chip above would be the size of the tip on a ballpoint pen.  Just wanted to clarify.  If you can find a sample from a book you would be money ahead vs. going the route I have outlined.    

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I will gladly give it another shot, but I looked pretty good. If it wasn't stripped and primered, it is rusted off. The unoriginal red paint is mostly on the wood parts such as the firewall and seat frame. It is over top of the black paint that those parts originally were. All that I have found so far is the paint that isn't original to the car. The reddish color of the sheet metal is the old primer on it.

KIMG0566.JPG

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Edited by ryan95 (see edit history)
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I don't doubt you.  You have to look hard and think about the parts that would be hard to pick clean or hard for a sandblaster to access.  Even then, it's a shot in the dark because you can't know what's in that chip until it's cleaned up and put under magnification.  Like I said, it's a process you'd have to hire out and you'd be money ahead if someone can dig up a book for your application, I just wanted to illustrate that not all hope is lost even in cases like yours.

 

 

 

Edited by W_Higgins (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, ryan95 said:

W_Higgins, An old guy stripped and put primer on the entire car before he passed away around 1980. There are no traces left other than some incorrect bright red paint that was brushed over some off the parts. I know it is not original because they got it on some aftermarket wiring that someone did.

 

John, I just discovered Walt and he is checking around for me.

 

29 Franklin, those books would be greatly helpful, especially if they contain anything from the early twenties. I am searching for someone who has access to something like that. Is it possible for me to contact this person you know of?

Call Fred at 856 784 4044. See if he can help you 

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(from Wikipedia) A lake pigment is a pigment made by precipitating a dye with an inert binder, or "mordant", usually a metallic salt. Unlike vermilion, ultramarine, and other pigments made from ground minerals, lake pigments are organic.[1] Manufacturers and suppliers to artists and industry frequently omit the lake designation in the name. Many lake pigments are fugitivebecause the dyes involved are not lightfast. Red lakes were particularly important in Renaissance and Baroque paintings; they were often used as translucent glazes to portray the colors of rich fabrics and draperies.

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Somewhere in the back of my mind is some vague information about the "lake process" used in the teens.  It seems to me that the appearance of the paint was somewhat translucent and gave the paint some depth although not quite like a clear coat.  I seem to remember that the colors (Usually a red or maroon) were easily washed out by the sun.  Clearcoats did not really come into use until they developed  uv additives.  I suspect that the use of the "lake name" on colors may have been more of an advertising ploy than a description of the process by the twenties.  

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Just a curious thought or question, I guess... 

 

If there is absolutely NO evidence anywhere on the car, and if there is absolutely NO record of precisely what shade of maroon it was, and if there is absolutely NO one who knows what it was for certain... How much effort might it be worth to try and find out? 

 

Don't get me wrong, I DO understand the value of correct restoration. But considering how massive a job it is to actually restore a basket-case car all the way to the point of completion, I would PERSONALLY not want to allow any minute detail slow the process down...especially if no one anywhere will know or care about the exact, precise shade. 

 

I admire you and this project, and hope it will go well for you. And since you have already begun looking for this correct shade, I do hope you find it. I just wouldn't lose much sleep, or delay the project very long if it proves too elusive. 

 

Best wishes on your project! 

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Wow, there is some great information here. Your comments about Baroque and Renaissance paintings got me doing some more digging. I found a website that gives the history of lake paints, as used by artists. Here is the article, http://blogs.getty.edu/iris/the-bug-that-had-the-world-seeing-red/. According to the article, it took 70,000 dried insects to produce a pound of red dye. This was used for producing red textile dyes and paints, which were understandably expensive and for the wealthy. According to Wikipedia, "lake" refers to the word "lac," which just describes the resin nature of the paint.

 

I also found another resource from the ideas that you all gave me, a book called Protective and Decorative Coatings, published in 1943.  There is an entire chapter devoted to maroon paint including the history of lake pigments, and how it was eventually discovered how to make them synthetically in 1856. Check out the first two pages of the chapter in particular. Here is the link to the chapter, https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uc1.b3482303;view=1up;seq=215.

 

Here is my latest theory on these lake paints. Let me know what you all think. The original red lake paints of a few hundred years ago were recognized as the best source of maroon, so all maroon was referred to as lake maroon, even when they became synthetic. People knew what lake colors looked like, so the synthetic versions that looked the same were called the same even though they weren't technically lakes by chemical makeup. Lake colors had a royal feel to them due to their expensive history, so the lake name carried over into synthetics, "an advertising ploy," as Nickelroadster puts it is would be accurate.

 

You all have helped me discover what a lake paint actually is. Next I need help digging up what shade maroon Moon might have used to create their version "lake maroon." This brings us back to the color chip and original car paint search.

 

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Lump, I will not let my search hold back the restoration. You are right that it would be unreasonable to do so. I probably will never find an exact shade, but close would be nice. I just want to do the car justice for whatever shade of maroon is picked as the best candidate. We have probably two years before paint. I am doing the digging now to keep the restoration moving along.

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That's why I will try to limit it to no more than 5. 3 would be even better. Eventually I will probably start with 3 samples, see what looks best, and if there are no winners order samples one at a time.

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I have tried to do what I can , trying to get 100 year old color books to lay flat on a scanner without wrecking the binding is just difficult. Each of the two Murphy color books I have has 3 pages of red/maroon colors in them and range from bright red to a maroon so dark it almost looks black and both books were in sensitive storage since new so the colors are not faded or bleached out. Also the strips of color shown are only 1/2 inch by 2 1/2 inch. If/when you get a color and take it to the paint supplier to match, it is best if the color is matched by eye not machine. Hard to find someone that color sensitive to do so. Looking at samples in natural or artificial light will also affect what you see and thus can match. Fluorescent lights are terrible to try to match colors under! I taught art for nearly 40 years and can make that statement as fact and in confidence. Fluorescent lights " wash out" colors . I agree with those that state if you "come close" to a match be happy with that.

When I was trying to match the two shades of blue on my Derham bodied 1931 Franklin when I painted it in 1974 I found the exact ( yes exact) same colors on a color sample chart for Mercedes Benz that was currently a new car at that year. Look to non metallic European car colors and the charts available as well for a modern color you can order.

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A challenge to scanning and posting colors online is that everyone's monitor may show them differently. What I might see on my screen, may be entirely different when I email it to you and you look at it on your screen. In selling automotive carpet, we have to constantly warn our customers not to rely on the colors they see on our website, but rather to allow us to send them free samples. 

 

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From old accounts of custom built cars before synthetic paints came out in the mid 1920s, crimson lake was a popular finish on expensive cars. The finish had to be built up coat after coat, rubbed down between coats and finally varnished. No wax was used, the chauffeur was supposed to wash by hand with plain water and a chamois. After a few years the car could be taken back to the coachbuilder, rubbed down and given a fresh coat of varnish.

 

If the lake type paint was translucent then building up several coats would give a depth of finish and shine that could not be duplicated with opaque paint.

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I think it is unlikely that it was translucent. The only reference to that I have found is for the paints that were used hundreds of years ago, made from ground insects. In the 1800's, chemists because figuring out how to make that color synthetically and I doubt it was still translucent. They were more concerned with the color.I Paint manufacturers weren't making paints out of bugs anymore, and it would have looked entirely different. The paint in 1923 would be a varnish like the other paints of that year, manufactured the same way as the blue s and greens and others. I wouldn't mind being proven wrong, but if 1920's lake paint were translucent like the paint of renaissance painters, someone would have recorded that somewhere, since it would be unlike any other paints of the early 1920's.

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Rusty_OToole, I stand corrected. I have uncovered some early 1900's carriage painting books and articles along with some very early automobile painting books that describe how to produce lake paints and maroons. Synthetic maroons were available by this time, but are advised to be avoided since they are inferior to genuine carmine. Carmine pigment is mentioned repeatedly in these different manuals as translucent, and especially translucent in comparison to the other color pigments of the time period. I am still learning about varnish painting of automobiles and did not understand how different they were from the flat, lacquer paints that replaced them in the late twenties. The process for the varnishes appears to be first, apply a base color, or ground color as it is usually called. This would be solid. Second, depending on the color, apply coats of glazing, which are varnish with some color mixed in. these would be translucent. Third, coats of clear rubbing varnish would be added, let dry and eventually rubbed to make the color really shine. One source says to apply maroon lake glazing over deep Tuscan red ground. The main problem with these paints are durability and fading. These books mention that even though it is one of the best looking colors, genuine carmine fades. I would really like to figure out how to reproduce this color in a way that looks like the original varnish in transparency, but is durable and will hold its color for many years. Does anyone have an idea how to produce a transparent effect with paint?

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That is called candy apple. In the fifties custom painters figured out how to tint clear lacquer with colored toners. The semi transparent paint would be applied over silver, gold or bronze base and built up to the required depth of color then finished off with clear. The result was a very dazzling type of finish that reflected the metallic base through the paint. Metallic paints were similar but applied in one go. The metallic powder would settle to the bottom and the paint had to be transparent enough for it to reflect through the paint.

 

I am sure you could recreate a version of the 100 year old finish using modern paint. Similar to candy or base clear but in a more subdued form.

 

1953 Buick Ruby Maroon was a popular color on customs in the early fifties because it had that glow you refer to. It may have gotten the same effect using more modern paints.

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You mention the problem of fading of the early coach finish. This may be why the cars had to go back to the coachbuilder every few years to be rubbed down and refinished. They would not take it all the way down to bare metal, just sand the surface give it a couple of coats of paint then revarnish. This may have been as much to restore the color as the shine.

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I vaguely recall one former client of mine selling old school "natural" Nitrocellulose Lacquer paint. I asked about that one time, and he gave me a long explanation about the old original lacquer paints, which he said were made from the "Lac" bug. For a long time many restorers would pay premium prices to buy old-school paints, like nitrocellulose lacquer. But other friends of mine who were highly skilled car painters told me that modern paint formulas were vastly superior, and he couldn't imagine using Nitrocellulose again, even if it was cheaper. 

 

I'm not a car painter myself, so I don't claim to have specific knowledge about such things. But I do find the subject fascinating. 

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Aaaaw, the universal question "what color is Maroon?" How does it differ from dark burgundy, etc. Last year an old gent I knew (who was 100 years old and has since passed away God bless him), gave me 1/2 dozen 50-70 year old paint chip books, Sherwin-Wiliams/Kem, Pittsburg/Ditzler, C-I-L, etc. They are products used mainly on the big 4 cars (GM, Ford, Chry, AMC) (and some foreign models) from the late 40's thru the early 70's. After reading this topic I took a few minutes to look at their "Maroon" offerings. Wow, dozens of different names  including many variations called just "Maroon", most of which look similar at a passing glance, but when you set the samples side by side in natural sunlight, there are differences in darkness and hue. C-I-L's offerings included AMC colors like Vintage Maroon (1964), and Deep Maroon (1971). Chrysler products incl Maroon,  Ford has plain Maroon (1973) as well as Royal Maroon, Vintage Burgundy, GM offered Empire Maroon (1969) Cordovan Maroon,  Regent Maroon and Madiera Maroon, Datsun offered Maroon (dark red), FIAT offered Maroon RED, MB offered Maroon, Renault offered Red (Maroon) Triumph offered Damson Maroon, Ford of England offered Imperial Maroon,  Toyota offered Spanish Maroon, Vauxhall offered Martian Maroon,. Ditzler carried Honduras Maroon (quite red), and S-W Opex offered in 1948 GM Mikado Maroon and Commercial Maroon, and in 1949 Wiltshire Maroon, while Ford in 1948 had Midland Maroon and Chrysler offered Crown Maroon and Air Cruiser Maroon. I'm sure if you go to a local paint supplier or old time painter's place, they would have books carrying many of these chips and you could narrow down 2 or 3 options. I will say the chips I looked at had a wide variety of "reddish" to them, some very dark red/brown (almost black at a quick glance), some much lighter red. Back in the 20's I understand manufacturers stayed away from Red generally due to it's tendency to fade quickly, so in keeping with that fact, a deeper/darker maroon is most likely what your car would have worn.  Good Luck, wish you were closer, I'd just give you these books, they are not of much value to me.

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Rusty's comments on Candy Apple were spot on - below are color charts for Candy Apple - on the left it is over a gold bse and on the right it is overa silver base. The same company manufactured Star Pearl (pearlescent) paints and Metalflake. Chip sets for all 3 types shown but jpegs do not show the incredible sheen or depth of these finishes.  Chip set would probably be 1964 or 1965 if memory serves.

 

 

IMG_0003.jpg

IMG_0004.jpg

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To update my progress, The paint before 1924 may not have been Dupont brand. The Moon historian that i was talking to assumed that it was, since he didn't know that the paint formula changed when Moon began spray painting cars instead of brushing them. So it may or may not have been. Currently, I do not know if the actual paint manufacturer matters. After reading books and articles on how to varnish circa 1900 carriages, it looks like mixing paint colors from common base colors was typical. One book tells how to make 59 different colors from the list of essential colors that the author recommends.

image.png.9039172fa857bfec5e3e3a780aeae06c.png

 

I have contacted a few reputable brass era car restoration shops that I found online to get advice on giving modern paint the deep look that varnish would. So far, they have recommended using urethane paints, those being what they use on their restorations. One shop said that they mix 25 percent clear coat with single stage urethane. I plan on getting more opinions from other restorers and also seeing if I can track down some antique car judges to see what they look for, or would call incorrect.

 

One idea that i have had in my head since Rusty's comment was to spray candy maroon over a maroon base coat. I know very little about candy, but it appears that the common process is to use a silver or gold metallic base coat, then the candy coat, then a clear coat, a three stage system. It appears that the candy part of candy paint is basically clear coat with translucent dye mixed in. I am wondering if substituting the shiny metallic base for a non-metallic maroon would achieve this look. I am not saying that it has never been done, but I can not find any information on anyone who has tried it. It would definitely be an unorthodox way of using candy paint I imagine. If it looks promising, I will include it in the methods that we will sample before making a decision. Please chime in on your thoughts and knowledge of this.

 

Gunsmoke, Those books sound very interesting. I don't plan on doing paint research very often, or otherwise I might be interested in figuring out how to get those. I am sure that there is some paint library who would gladly take them and make them accessible for everyone. Have you checked into contacting someone at paintref.com?

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I usually don't get excited over being wrong, but I spent some time tonight looking very closely over the car and found what I believe to be original paint! W_Higgins, you were right. Thank you for making me want to give it another look. What I noticed tonight is that there seems to be three or four variations of reddish coatings on the car. The first and least important, a very bright red, which is sloppily brush painted on most of the wood over the original black. Second, the red primer that is on a lot of the sheet metal of the car. Oddly it is mostly on the driver's side. Third, the exciting one, I rubbed and spit shined a few areas that I suspected might have something original on them. There was one door jamb and also a spot on the right rear quarter panel that was not as affected from the stripper. The pictures are all of this paint. It looks to be brush painted from the lack of over spray and how it lays. It is glossy and almost looks to have some depth in person. It is also looks how I assume 96 year old maroon paint would look like after it fades. Does anyone in this forum know how to test the composition of this paint? The original should be a varnish, and not lacquer, enamel, or urethane. Is this something that I can test for myself? Does anyone know of a method, chemically, microscopically, or sent out to someone? Thanks in advance. I know this seems overkill for an originally mid-priced car, but it is a quest that I enjoy and I believe the final result will be well worth it.

 

758143044_OriginalpaintonBobsMoon1.JPG.7d9ec386c972b6ee34ee9612d34d86f0.JPG754066465_OriginalpaintonBobsMoon2.JPG.99bc480a4d395857e09ef3c87e48d545.JPG1721442072_OriginalpaintonBobsMoon3.JPG.6e401c399bbbcda4c6a4ff69b7ef8bb8.JPG

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Glad to see you might have found something useful.  Remember too that since finishes at this time were so prone to failure early on, it was not unusual for a car to get repainted within a couple of years, so what you're looking at may not be the original presentation surface, but it may very well be underneath.  That's why you'd need testing like I showed earlier.  With that the layering would tell the story, and yes, there are ways to test to the composition of those layers to tell you what they are, what pigments were used, and make a good stab at determining the shade of color it was originally based on those pigments.  I'll work up some information to send you about who I think can help with that.  Good job, that's an excellent find!

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