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27 Packard, Oh, to get it started.


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OK. I've cleaned out the lower crankcase as best I can using paper towels. Pretty clean now. Still looks good and turns over by hand fine.

I took off the water jacket and it is very rusty in there, wet and rusty. I paper toweled that out too. I can only do so much that way. How bad is this?

On the under side of the crankcase, on the surface to which the oil pan attaches, at the rear end, there are two cork disks about 1" in diameter. They plug up a hole that open up into the flywheel compartment. They easily push out. One is in great shape, they other is just OK. What are they for?

Jerry

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Hi Jerry ! Looks like you are doing a proper, methodical pre-startup sequence. This will save you time, money, and grief down the line. The joy you will have along the slow roads in your area will not be clouded by worrying whether you will get home. 

 

As to the "how bad" aspect, the water passages, as the "basement", that is, the crankcase, demand further treatment. There is significant flow restriction, most likely at the rear of the engine. But, like the basement, it is better than some, worse than others. It should be properly cleaned. You are wise to do these inspections. While you are dealing with cooling issues, you must also pay attention to the radiator. Many people find it advisable to just replace the radiator. I had to do that with my '27 Cad, the radiator in my '24 has needed zero attention whatsoever in my 30 years of ownership. But unlike the "new one" the '24 was never owned by anyone who did not thoroughly understand it. You must pull it, and take it to an old time shop who has proper experience and knowledge. You will need to use a coolant filter when you are finally on the road. None of this is difficult or particularly expensive, unless you do need a new radiator. Even that is not a show stopper.

 

Also, you MUST check the bearings while the pan is off. The absolute minimum is one main, and two rod bearings. I do not know which main cap to pull first on a seven main inline Packard six. Maybe the rear. You will have to inspect for excess wear, corrosion, and clearance by measuring or plastigage. A little pitting or very light scuffing may not be anything to worry about. Any questionable findings whatsoever will mean pulling all caps for further evaluation. Again, this is prudent preventative evaluation, not expensive, and will give you peace of mind. Not to mention the familiarity you will gain with your rewarding toy. I enjoy this diagnostic process very much.

 

I have to run downtown now, but along with the other guys here (most of whom are more experienced and expert than I am), we will be looking over your shoulder on the forum. Have you hooked up with any other old car guys in your area.?     -    Carl 

 

 

Edited by C Carl
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Thank you Carl,

The fellow who cleaned out the gas tank also works on radiators. He may have ideas on the rust in the block.

So, I pull the cap. Then what?  My manual (Section M59; Connecting Rod Bearings-Take Up) says, "Remove one cap at a time and dress down on surface plate. Replace connecting rod cap to crankshaft, using blue or lampblack to locate high spots and draw up tight. Turn flywheel......Remove bearing, examine for high spots and scrape down..... to 0.001" clearance."  I have no idea what the bearing looks like. Will pieces fall out when I remove the cap? What do the italicized words mean? If it is loose, scraping will make it looser?????

There are knowledgeable folks around here; I can see them every Sunday morning in the market parking lot. There is also a very good restorer who indulges me. I don't want to bug any of them too much.

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A frequent way of doing the initial clean in the cooling chambers is to water blast it. Get all that muck out. Scrape. Scape some more. Pay attention at the very rear. Remove any core plugs and have a good scratch around in there. Once you think you have it clean, fill with Evaporust to eat away the rust. Oxalic acid works too, but takes much longer. These are chelating agents for rust (iron Fe 2+ is it?). You need clear flow between all cylinders top to bottom and around the valve chamber. Included in your scratchings you might find wire from the casting process and sand from the same place.

 

This will inevitably leave flakes of rust etc. in there. Put a filter on the coolant return hose (to the radiator). A pantyhose or stocking foot works well.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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The scrape down process is not something you can do easily. Basically if the bearing clearance is more than factory, then the mechanic would take the cap off, and scrape it on sandpaper or a mill file to reduce its size, then refit. This process would take up the excess gap in the bearing race. Not something for amateurs. As was suggested, use plastiguage to determine clearance, but you are a long ways away from that. I would clean out the water jacket as good as you can. The water does not go all the way around the cylinders. The back side is the valve gallery. This is an open cooling system, so flow is important to all the areas especially at the rear of the block and the head because there is no pressure to insure complete coverage. This is the reason the water temp gauge is located at the back of the head so you get a good reading at the far end of the system. Check the water jacket cover for rust out, new ones are available for around $ 350. The flow in the cover is important and any holes will cause the flow to reduce front to back. I would be more concerned about bearings if after start up, you do not have adequate oil pressure. 30 lbs at 30 mph is the standard, 10 lbs, maybe less at idle is OK, you just don't want to let these engines idle for long periods. The rods are rifle bored and it is a long way up the rod to the wrist pin, so idling is not recommended as oil may not get up there.   

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X2 to Spinneyhill's suggestion on the evaporust and  stocking foot to filter and

trap the crud that  Evaporust breaks loose 

Evaporust ( Grey Plastic gallon can with yellow label ) 

approx $20 - $ 22 / gal @ Tractor Supply 

also great to set on the work bench to clean rusty tools, bolts , etc 

 

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Given the looks of the block behind the water jacket, as suggested I too would recommend a complete boil out of the radiator. However it is quite a job to completely remove the radiator on these cars. One suggestion might be to disconnect the radiator, block off the bottom hose and flush it with Rydlyme. Rydlyme is used in boiler cleaning of copper and brass steam and heating boilers and will not harm yellow metal. Just pour it in and let it set for couple of hours and it will descale the inside of the radiator. Flush out completely with fresh water. You can also save it for reuse, just strain out the gunk and put it back in the gallon container. There are other flushing products out there at auto parts stores so you might try that before removing the radiator. I think you are getting near the end of your pre start chores. After re-installing the pan and adding oil,  I would be looking to turn the engine over on the starter with the spark plugs removed and do a basic compression test. Although Packard did not have compression readings, my research leads me to believe that 87 lbs is about max for this engine. That test will give you a lot of information about this engine. It is possible to get some oil pressure on the starter, just make sure you have a fully charged battery with good cables, preferably new.  Unless this system was converted to 12v, all 6volt systems require over size cables to get all the voltage through the system so think" heavy truck" when replacing any 6v cables and make sure the  "positive " ground is tight to the frame.  You can also get some excellent advise from the Packard " PAC" website, many experts there specific to your car.  

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Sorry to hear that the radiator is difficult to r&r. Easy on the '27 Cad. Hopefully you will luck out, and not need a new radiator. IF YOU DO RUN ON THE OLD RADIATOR, YOU MUST HAVE A MODERN MECHANICAL TEMP GAGE IN ADDITION TO ANY, (MOTOMETER, ETC), TEMPERATURE MONITORING SYSTEM EXTANT. And now that I have your attention due to the emphasis of capitalization, DO NOT RE-INSTALL THE PAN AND ADD OIL UNTIL YOU DO THE PROPER BEARING INSPECTION AND MEASUREMENT. This is not difficult. Again, you may luck out. I did with my old Cadillacs. But you do not want to have your engine come apart while having to run 101 at a brief 45-50 mph, or pulling some of those long grades you have in your region. My '27 climbed the 101 grade from, what is the name of that beach ? You know, where the highway turns inland Northbound from Santa Barbara ? Gaviota ? Anyway, I pulled that long steep grade, fully loaded, in top gear. I do have the "stump puller" gears in my relics. Kind of glad. I am seldom in a hurry. If I had the "long legs" I would have had to shift down. Overdrive would be a welcome addition, but again, I know my bearings will hold up to my needs. This may not be the case with bearings laid up on ancient oil for 40 years. Simple galvanic erosion could have weakened the bearings : or not. DO NOT TRUST TO LUCK HERE !!!!

 

And no worries about "bugging" your good forum friends "too much". AACA considers this type of assistance the exact purpose of of the applicable forum categories. I have seen the experts walk newbies through step by step work a number of times. There is nothing you will do without a professional level expert here having "been there, done that". They participate because they are kind, generous people who love to help others. But you don't want to have any of them say or think "told you so" because you skipped an essential step.!  -  Carl

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Ref. the radiator,  mine was blocked but not from scale. It was brown-black silt and finer sized particles, rust no doubt.  Clean that out before putting in acids that eat calcium carbonate, which will mostly be around the water-air interface line anyway.

 

I took mine out and back flushed it with water and 100 psi air pulses. A fair bit came out but it still wasn't right. I should have persevered, but...... The radiator shop man put it face down, wet it all over, then filled it with hot water. It stayed wet where it was blocked - a triangle from bottom corners up towards the middle. It needed rodding, probably, and that is what he did. I could have persevered longer with the water and air sparging and removed more myself, perhaps. You need plenty of water and air for this!

 

I made my tool to get air into the water from a garden hose "Y" fitting. Ideally, you need high air flow and my compressor didn't supply enough. With the radiator upside down, a pulse of air would squirt water 2 or 3 m out of the top tank inlet pipe.

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I am eternally grateful for everyone's kind help.

I called the guy who works on radiators and he said, "NO, I am trying to retire!" He did suggest I clean it out as best as possible (following the help here), go with it and keep a watchful eye on the yet to be installed temp gauge.

I'll first deal with the block. I had a few minutes this morning and thought I would poke around. Should not have worn a good shirt. The pushrods all move as the engine is cranked (hand). There are holes adjacent to the pushrods (about 1/8") and seem to be clear. The valve cover has a thick cork gasket (now trash). The rocker lever cover is next. I'll finish swabbing, then plan on the water blasting.

To watch the valves move, do I need to remove the head? (I'll go look to see if I can see them thru the spark plug holes.)

I think it is time to remove the hood. I don't see an obvious way to do that.

Carl, yes that is Gaviota. You have established my goal: drive that section of highway without white-knuckling it.

 

BTW, the previous owner did put on an electric fuel pump, but didn't finish the job and the gas line is lying on the exhaust pipe. So, new gas line work is in order. Are the fittings the same as flared plumbing fittings?

I like the idea of manually filling up the vacuum tank. That, however, is way down the road.

Jerry

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I must disagree on the oil filter. Bypass filters are very effective, they filter out finer particles of dirt and sludge than a full flow filter. They do filter all the oil, just not all at once. It takes 15 minutest to 30 minutes for all the oil to go through the filter.

 

Like a pool filter that only takes a small amount of water at a time, but will filter a murky pool sparkling clean in a day or 2.

 

If it was mine I would not neglect the oil filter.

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Of course, I will look as to why there is no filter. I'll need to find where the supply tube comes from or would have come from. I think the bracket on the oil filler throat is to hold one end of the oil filter. There are no marks indicating there ever was a filter.

 

BTW, I can see the valves thru the spark plug hole, if I contort myself just right.

 

Thanks Rusty, Jerry

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Be aware that an electric fuel pump will deliver too much pressure for the carburetor if it is a vacuum tank car. In general, a pressure reducer needs to be installed to bring it back to about 1 psi or less, the pressure of about 2' (vacuum to carb) of fuel on the float valve in the carburetor. Otherwise, the carburetor will flood and it will drown in petrol. They worked perfectly well on the vacuum tank for many years and it should again.

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Another note about the fuel pressure regulator.

Please use a decent one, not a super cheap, poorly made one from your local chain auto parts store like this one.

fpr2_1.3474.jpg

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Here is a discussion item and I am about to say some things that get people all fired up, but after they put 100K miles on a variety of CCCA cars over 30 years then .....:  I disagree with pulling bearings caps to measure on something of this age - sometimes on original engines you just best be happy or you best be prepared to fully rebuild (aka sometimes messing with things makes marginal turn to bad really quick).  Sometimes I do and sometimes I do not check - just depends.     There is of course the unknown, but doubtful this particular packard car was dropped off the road for bad bearings or piston pins (perhaps yes, but ....).  You will be able to tell via sound and oil pressure.  Also, keep in mind when really hot (and running like 40 or 50 weight) you may not have much oil pressure - it is not pressure as much as it is delivery (you need delivery).  Finally, given your not knowing what to look for it perhaps just leave alone.

 

As to oil filter - there are plenty of cars that did not have them in the time period (and that is fine).  the reason why it is missing is because they were hard to get at certain periods of time and still a challenge today matched to being quite expensive.

 

I would do first oil change within say an hour or so of driving.  Then i would change again say after 50 miles, then another 50.  Then every 3 years or 1000 miles whichever comes first. 

 

Spend some time wire toothbrushing or.  your water passage.

 

Radiator probably needs some help too.

 

Have to go back on the thread - still not sure why electric pump is needed (for priming after long periods of storage yes, but not driving).

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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On 6/27/2019 at 1:06 AM, zepher said:

Another note about the fuel pressure regulator.

Please use a decent one, not a super cheap, poorly made one from your local chain auto parts store like this one.

fpr2_1.3474.jpg

I have had several of these go bad over time - they sort of just one day leak from everywhere. 

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Once you find gunked up oil in the engine, the next suspects are the rear axle and transmission. 

 

Time to also start working the clutch and make sure not stuck.

 

U-joints will need a careful review too.

Sidenote:  A lot of odd style grease fittings out there - a lot of cars I unscrewed them and had a modern fitting to screw in - then greased and then put old fitting back in.

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Yes on running it in the garage first, then driveway. Baby steps. Especially since I live up a steep dirt road. Brakes work?

Marvel Mystery Oil should be an additive or used straight??

Visible water passageways are cleaning up better than I thought. Still, more to do. Plan on checking out radiator.

Engine moves very smoothly. Keeping an open mind. The manual I have is for a year after mine. It shows an oil filter.

Don't plan on using electric fuel pump. I may try to fill up vacuum tank manually first.

Yes as to changing oil after an hour (in which case I may not be too worried about oil quality). Probably same for coolant.

Thank you JM.

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Marvel Mystery Oil is an additive and I think there is a formula on the bottle of how to add to your gas and how to add to your oil, but if not like 1/3 of a quart can/bottle/jar in oil and 1/3 quart in gas (about 3- 5 rattle can lids to start).

 

The more you add the more it will probably smoke out exhaust, but in laid up cars a little smoking is fine. 

 

 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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An electric pump to prime is fine (done it on every car i have had a vacuum tank on) - that being said though, they can be really dangerous on cars with vacuum tanks as the vacuum tank is vented and usually the vent aims at something like the exhaust manifold or ... matched to carbs having needle and seats not designed for more than 1lb to 1.5 lb pressure of gravity. 

 

You can actually use the vacuum tank as a "gas can" more or less while testing on car - it will hold maybe 3 minutes of gas (RR would run about 7 minutes and it had an over-sized vacuum tank with a half gallon or so reserve).

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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You are going to stir up a lot of rust chips in cooling system - you may want to consider such as a Gano Filter for the top radiator hose (Summit racing has and ... - do a search). 

 

Again, perhaps an Evapo Rust start to a thread - I heard it from Edinmass I believe who likes the product. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Here is a discussion item and I am about to say some things that get people all fired up, but after they put 100K miles on a variety of CCCA cars over 30 years then .....:  I disagree with pulling bearings caps to measure on something of this age - sometimes on original engines you just best be happy or you best be prepared to fully rebuild (aka sometimes messing with things makes marginal turn to bad really quick).  Sometimes I do and sometimes I do not check - just depends.     There is of course the unknown, but doubtful this particular packard car was dropped off the road for bad bearings or piston pins (perhaps yes, but ....).  You will be able to tell via sound and oil pressure.  Also, keep in mind when really hot (and running like 40 or 50 weight) you may not have much oil pressure - it is not pressure as much as it is delivery (you need delivery).  Finally, given your not knowing what to look for it perhaps just leave alone.

 

 

With TOTAL respect for John, as he anticipated, I disagree with this. Within the literal construction of this proposition lies the logical defeat of his premise. However, since I have to unload 2-3 tons of machinery and materials right now, with more to move later, my counter argument will have to wait. You will not be starting your engine for well into next month, not even by Argentine Independence day. This is not a time sensitive matter. So, 'round here at the ranch : first things first. Here's hoping for no injuries, and no damage to heavy precision tools.   

                                                             I'll be back in a day or 3.    -    Carl 

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I am not sure why one would add another oil to a perfectly good engine oil. It will change the viscosity. Oils already contain a lot of additives. What is in this mystery oil that is not in 5W-40 oil, other than a lot of Stoddart Solvent (white spirits)?

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)
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Like Spinneyhill I question the use of additional additives in motor oil.What are you trying to accomplish by adding MMO or Risalone to your oil? Refiners put a lot more than just crude into those bottles. Snake oil, all of them in my opinion. You are welcome to your opinion of course.  Zeke

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Relieved to report no injuries, and no damaged anything. I have just been able to slowly hobble to my bed and lie down for a few minutes. Somewhat sore, but tomorrow will be the critical test. If I am too beat to do anything more than lie in bed, I will tend to some thumb tapping. Too pooped to post now.   -    Carl 

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On 6/30/2019 at 3:36 PM, Spinneyhill said:

I am not sure why one would add another oil to a perfectly good engine oil. It will change the viscosity. Oils already contain a lot of additives. What is in this mystery oil that is not in 5W-40 oil, other than a lot of Stoddart Solvent (white spirits)?

Marvel mystery oil is for ungumming valves and probably helps too with stuck rings - you add it to crusty original/unrestored engines that have not been run in years (basically it is what you would use in a valve oil lubricator).  I would be the first person to not use such, but after eons of old timers yelling at me I thought perhaps time I listen and so far I have been pleasantly surprised (addit it in about the last 5 cars I have revived).    Once you have run it for a while then I would stop adding it to the oil/change the oil.  Not to be rude or anything like that, but I like to get things running that have been laid up for year and then I like to run them on AACA and CCCA tours for a while - basically really drive them (and we rarely if ever trailer a car to and from) and these are the kind of things I found  useful in reviving them. 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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Sorry I was away for a couple of days, and saw you mentioned removing the rocker covers. Do not do this, what you are looking at  is the roller rocker system cover and they will not go back in with the valves installed. The valve springs will push the lifter ( push rod )  down and the rocker mechanism will be in the down position and impossible to push the four valve trains ( 8 valves each )   back up at the same time to get it back in. The only exception might be from under the car, but reaching in through the cam shaft to lift the push rods out of the way would be very difficult at best. The rollers are in two sections of 8 vales each, hence two covers. This car has a roller bearing rocker lifter system that pushes the push rod up to move the valves, servicing can only be done when a complete tear down of the valve train is done. You will have to wait and see if you have excessive noise from the lifters after start. Given the overall condition of this car, I would very much doubt you have any lifter issues. If you say the valves all move, then that is a good indication of other things being in good shape as well.

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Sorry Jerry, this is a 433 car ? Then a 6 cylinder, not an eight ? so my suggestion is invalid.  I would suggest you get on the PAC forum and talk to someone who knows this car well, and can tell you from specific experience what you are in to. Sorry for the confusion.

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1 hour ago, Jerry with a Packard said:

901 Thanks. I thought I replied Sunday, but I must not have hit the reply button. My car is a 426., a six. PAC is the Packard Club.org? This forum seems much more active.

I'll await more guidance before I remove the rocker cover.

Can you lay under the open pan while someone handcranks and make sure everything is turning freely regarding valves ?

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If you can look in while someone else cranks and see and/or feel everything is free then I would start putting it back together.    You may want to lay some paper and pans under car and give a really nice spray of penetrating oil to everything = just to clean "wash out" any loose sediment dirt from parts in lower end. 

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