Jerry with a Packard

27 Packard, Oh, to get it started.

Recommended Posts

I've dropped the oil pan. There certainly is a thick residue in the bottom of the oil pan. That will be easy to clean out. Messy, but easy. The photos show the exposed underside of the engine. I can scrape gunk from many exposed pieces. As far I as I can tell so far, the cylinders look OK. No rust or scoring. Suggestions? Do I just scrub away with the parts as exposed? There is a screen cylinder in the housing of the oil pump which is removed. It is very clean.IMG_2175.thumb.JPG.829071c4d5863d1b2befcb3b905db8cd.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Jerry, you also need to pull the side cover off that is over the valve springs. If you have a mess in the oil pan, it will also be behind this cover. After scraping out all you can, aerosol carb cleaner will aid the final cleanup. Make sure the drain holes from this area to the pan are open. Also be sure to clean the oil pump pickup screen. Great looking car.

 

 

Edited by Mike36 (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Mike. Do you consider what you see to be promising? I guess the engine hasn't been run in ~40 years at least. Looks to me like the oil pan gasket is original. If I buy one from Olsen's Gaskets, it comes in pieces, as it is too large to ship safely in one piece. Is that a problem? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

What I see in the picture is normal for these old engines as they were run with non detergent oil. Put the pan back on with a couple of bolts just finger tight before cleaning out valve spring area. Then the mess is in the pan instead of on your floor. I have a ‘39 Dodge flathead that I did this to. After clean out, I used Shell Rotella 15-40 Diesel oil. The old Dodge likes this and the detergent oil will keep it clean. My engine has the bypass oil filter to help with this. After clean out it takes longer for the oil to look dirty. You may want to ask the Packard guys on here about running detergent oil in yours after clean out. I don’t know about your filter situation. My Dodge pan gasket came in 4 pieces. The long pieces on each side I used Permatex and glued them to the pan. I want them stuck there, not on the block. The block side of the gaskets got a thin film of grease to help them seal. I can now remove the pan, if needed, and not damage the gasket. I do not know about your Packard, but my Dodge has a flat cork seal in a channel at each end of the pan. These are thicker than the side gaskets and stick up above the side gaskets when installed. This is to allow them to crush when the pan is installed, thereby providing a tighter seal. I put grease on both sides of this seal to allow it to flow into position. 

Edited by Mike36 (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great help and guidance Mike. Thanks. The gasket at the rear and the front makes a sharp 90 degree turn downward. So, I'll have to be careful at the intersection of the planes.

The filter is the next issue. I know what it looks like (from pictures of engines and the manual I have), but it is not there! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

All good suggestions so far. I use Rotella 15/40 in my 32 and have no issues. As suggested clean out what you can from the valve gallery and make sure those drains are clear. As for the pan gasket, use Permetex or Form a Gasket on both surfaces, I think this car uses a slinger return line like mine from the rear main bearing and if the pan is not tight it will leak around that return line hole as it comes through the pan flange. It is not under pressure, only gravity feed but still the pan needs to seal around the hole. I did not see that you turned the engine yet ? I made up a crank tool by using a 1" black pipe and connectors and drilled and ground out the space for the pin that holds the pulley. See photo attached. Overall length is 14" . Just use a big crescent wrench to turn it.  As for the oil filter, you can disconnect it for now and by-pass back to the pan. A by-pass filter does not do much anyway, it may cycle about 10% of the oil, so just change the oil regularly, you are not likely to drive it many miles to need a filter.  

Crank tool.jpg

Crank tool2.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Cool and thanks. I did fashion a crank, also from a 1" pipe, But I use a pipe wrench. Your solution is more refined.  Engine turns over smoothly by hand. Thanks for the experienced info re the filter by-pass. I will do that for starters.

I've just learned the difference between detergent and non-detergent oils. Will the detergent oil clean up the gunk that I don't clean out by hand?

Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Detergent oil will help some, but don't expect a squeaky clean block, mostly clean bearing surfaces that you cannot see. Just change the oil and clean the screen on the oil pick up every few hundred miles at first. If you see a lot of gunk, then maybe go further, but it will take some time. Also getting the oil hot while running can do wonders. On a engine that has set for so long, I would be curious about the valves sticking. MIne was in a museum for 15 years and most of the valves were stuck. The only way to know is have someone turn the crank and watch the valves go up and down. Once you determine that they move all or part of the travel then maybe turn it on the starter. Did you remove the starter and try it on a bench ? Remember this is 6volt positive ground.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, thanks. I will do all of those things. When I was buying the car, the owner did go under the car and did something to momentarily engage the starter, so it works. I didn't ask him to go further, for better or worse. I wanted to go through the steps I am going through now to be careful with the engine.

Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"Non-detergent" oil is old technology oil. It just has no additives, so it gets very thin as engine temperature reaches running temperature. It also turns to sludge fairly quickly as it oxidises and sludge (which is very viscous) doesn't lubricate very well, not to mention being very hard to pump. You also see the result of using it for a long time: it deposits around the engine all the combustion products it picks up on the cylinder walls. Locations include inside the oil ways in the crankshaft and block and all over the timing gear. If you are very lucky, those oil ways are still able to pass enough oil to adequately lubricate the bearings etc.

 

Modern "detergent" oil has additives to control viscosity with temperature and antioxidants to slow sludge formation. It also has additives to help it suspend all those combustion products (mainly carbon) so they come out at oil change time rather than being left in the engine. It does NOT contain "detergent" to clean the engine; there is no magic ingredient to dissolve and remove the muck already in there. If you are lucky and there is sufficient flow in the oil ways, some of the sediment in there may be picked up if the flow is fast enough - simple sediment transport. Turbulent oil may pick up some of the sediment deposited in the engine.

 

So if you run this engine after your clean-out but without a dismantle and check, don't run it too fast for the first little while, at least 1000 miles. Give it a chance to clean some of the muck out of the oil ways. Some dirt will still remain, so always treat this engine as "delicate" with suspect oiling, until it is fully cleaned after a dismantle.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

More great info. Thanks.

"....very lucky...."    Do you recommend I take it apart completely?

I can probably clean everything I can see. The oil passageways can be blown out? If I can access them. The manual (1928) I have shows a "Test Tank for Lubricating System". Should I try to make one of those?

Jerry

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You will probably be surprised what you get out of the oil ways. If you use air, it will need very good flow. Perhaps a washout with something would be better. The test tank sounds interesting: can you tell us more about it please?

 

You will very probably get more life out of it if the oil ways are cleaned before you run it. Many don't do that and then blame "detergent" oil for the problem when the problem is the muck already blocking the oilways.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have the "Packard Standard Service Manual', revised August 1927 ($5.00). Of course, it is a copy. The photos didn't copy well. It shows (section M514) the tank which looks like a gallon sized paint can with a valve and hose attached. Also a gauge? Section M72 describes the procedure: disconnect the oil manifold from the oil pump*, fill tank 2/3 with oil out of motor, pump up to 30 psi. Dash gauge should register to near 30 psi. Crank motor by hand. "Flow of oil from the connecting rod and main bearings should be in DROPS before reaching floor. (Equivalent to 20 to 60 drops per minute.) Note: this test is used in making motor inspection indicating loose bearings and in refitting main and connecting rod bearings. ....also be used for checking bearing work after an overhaul."

*Meaning the oil pan is removed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Elsewhere (M710) they suggest the oil pressure should be checked before the oil pan is reattached, using a hose dipped into a can of oil as the oil source. Boy, that must be messy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sounds like a fair test, but messy as you say. It will certainly indicate if your have clear oil ways - not to mention the bearing clearances.

 

But use new oil.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

OK. I've cleaned out the lower crankcase as best I can using paper towels. Pretty clean now. Still looks good and turns over by hand fine.

I took off the water jacket and it is very rusty in there, wet and rusty. I paper toweled that out too. I can only do so much that way. How bad is this?

On the under side of the crankcase, on the surface to which the oil pan attaches, at the rear end, there are two cork disks about 1" in diameter. They plug up a hole that open up into the flywheel compartment. They easily push out. One is in great shape, they other is just OK. What are they for?

Jerry

IMG_0306.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Hi Jerry ! Looks like you are doing a proper, methodical pre-startup sequence. This will save you time, money, and grief down the line. The joy you will have along the slow roads in your area will not be clouded by worrying whether you will get home. 

 

As to the "how bad" aspect, the water passages, as the "basement", that is, the crankcase, demand further treatment. There is significant flow restriction, most likely at the rear of the engine. But, like the basement, it is better than some, worse than others. It should be properly cleaned. You are wise to do these inspections. While you are dealing with cooling issues, you must also pay attention to the radiator. Many people find it advisable to just replace the radiator. I had to do that with my '27 Cad, the radiator in my '24 has needed zero attention whatsoever in my 30 years of ownership. But unlike the "new one" the '24 was never owned by anyone who did not thoroughly understand it. You must pull it, and take it to an old time shop who has proper experience and knowledge. You will need to use a coolant filter when you are finally on the road. None of this is difficult or particularly expensive, unless you do need a new radiator. Even that is not a show stopper.

 

Also, you MUST check the bearings while the pan is off. The absolute minimum is one main, and two rod bearings. I do not know which main cap to pull first on a seven main inline Packard six. Maybe the rear. You will have to inspect for excess wear, corrosion, and clearance by measuring or plastigage. A little pitting or very light scuffing may not be anything to worry about. Any questionable findings whatsoever will mean pulling all caps for further evaluation. Again, this is prudent preventative evaluation, not expensive, and will give you peace of mind. Not to mention the familiarity you will gain with your rewarding toy. I enjoy this diagnostic process very much.

 

I have to run downtown now, but along with the other guys here (most of whom are more experienced and expert than I am), we will be looking over your shoulder on the forum. Have you hooked up with any other old car guys in your area.?     -    Carl 

 

 

Edited by C Carl
Spelling and clarification (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you Carl,

The fellow who cleaned out the gas tank also works on radiators. He may have ideas on the rust in the block.

So, I pull the cap. Then what?  My manual (Section M59; Connecting Rod Bearings-Take Up) says, "Remove one cap at a time and dress down on surface plate. Replace connecting rod cap to crankshaft, using blue or lampblack to locate high spots and draw up tight. Turn flywheel......Remove bearing, examine for high spots and scrape down..... to 0.001" clearance."  I have no idea what the bearing looks like. Will pieces fall out when I remove the cap? What do the italicized words mean? If it is loose, scraping will make it looser?????

There are knowledgeable folks around here; I can see them every Sunday morning in the market parking lot. There is also a very good restorer who indulges me. I don't want to bug any of them too much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

A frequent way of doing the initial clean in the cooling chambers is to water blast it. Get all that muck out. Scrape. Scape some more. Pay attention at the very rear. Remove any core plugs and have a good scratch around in there. Once you think you have it clean, fill with Evaporust to eat away the rust. Oxalic acid works too, but takes much longer. These are chelating agents for rust (iron Fe 2+ is it?). You need clear flow between all cylinders top to bottom and around the valve chamber. Included in your scratchings you might find wire from the casting process and sand from the same place.

 

This will inevitably leave flakes of rust etc. in there. Put a filter on the coolant return hose (to the radiator). A pantyhose or stocking foot works well.

Edited by Spinneyhill (see edit history)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The scrape down process is not something you can do easily. Basically if the bearing clearance is more than factory, then the mechanic would take the cap off, and scrape it on sandpaper or a mill file to reduce its size, then refit. This process would take up the excess gap in the bearing race. Not something for amateurs. As was suggested, use plastiguage to determine clearance, but you are a long ways away from that. I would clean out the water jacket as good as you can. The water does not go all the way around the cylinders. The back side is the valve gallery. This is an open cooling system, so flow is important to all the areas especially at the rear of the block and the head because there is no pressure to insure complete coverage. This is the reason the water temp gauge is located at the back of the head so you get a good reading at the far end of the system. Check the water jacket cover for rust out, new ones are available for around $ 350. The flow in the cover is important and any holes will cause the flow to reduce front to back. I would be more concerned about bearings if after start up, you do not have adequate oil pressure. 30 lbs at 30 mph is the standard, 10 lbs, maybe less at idle is OK, you just don't want to let these engines idle for long periods. The rods are rifle bored and it is a long way up the rod to the wrist pin, so idling is not recommended as oil may not get up there.   

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

X2 to Spinneyhill's suggestion on the evaporust and  stocking foot to filter and

trap the crud that  Evaporust breaks loose 

Evaporust ( Grey Plastic gallon can with yellow label ) 

approx $20 - $ 22 / gal @ Tractor Supply 

also great to set on the work bench to clean rusty tools, bolts , etc 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Given the looks of the block behind the water jacket, as suggested I too would recommend a complete boil out of the radiator. However it is quite a job to completely remove the radiator on these cars. One suggestion might be to disconnect the radiator, block off the bottom hose and flush it with Rydlyme. Rydlyme is used in boiler cleaning of copper and brass steam and heating boilers and will not harm yellow metal. Just pour it in and let it set for couple of hours and it will descale the inside of the radiator. Flush out completely with fresh water. You can also save it for reuse, just strain out the gunk and put it back in the gallon container. There are other flushing products out there at auto parts stores so you might try that before removing the radiator. I think you are getting near the end of your pre start chores. After re-installing the pan and adding oil,  I would be looking to turn the engine over on the starter with the spark plugs removed and do a basic compression test. Although Packard did not have compression readings, my research leads me to believe that 87 lbs is about max for this engine. That test will give you a lot of information about this engine. It is possible to get some oil pressure on the starter, just make sure you have a fully charged battery with good cables, preferably new.  Unless this system was converted to 12v, all 6volt systems require over size cables to get all the voltage through the system so think" heavy truck" when replacing any 6v cables and make sure the  "positive " ground is tight to the frame.  You can also get some excellent advise from the Packard " PAC" website, many experts there specific to your car.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sorry to hear that the radiator is difficult to r&r. Easy on the '27 Cad. Hopefully you will luck out, and not need a new radiator. IF YOU DO RUN ON THE OLD RADIATOR, YOU MUST HAVE A MODERN MECHANICAL TEMP GAGE IN ADDITION TO ANY, (MOTOMETER, ETC), TEMPERATURE MONITORING SYSTEM EXTANT. And now that I have your attention due to the emphasis of capitalization, DO NOT RE-INSTALL THE PAN AND ADD OIL UNTIL YOU DO THE PROPER BEARING INSPECTION AND MEASUREMENT. This is not difficult. Again, you may luck out. I did with my old Cadillacs. But you do not want to have your engine come apart while having to run 101 at a brief 45-50 mph, or pulling some of those long grades you have in your region. My '27 climbed the 101 grade from, what is the name of that beach ? You know, where the highway turns inland Northbound from Santa Barbara ? Gaviota ? Anyway, I pulled that long steep grade, fully loaded, in top gear. I do have the "stump puller" gears in my relics. Kind of glad. I am seldom in a hurry. If I had the "long legs" I would have had to shift down. Overdrive would be a welcome addition, but again, I know my bearings will hold up to my needs. This may not be the case with bearings laid up on ancient oil for 40 years. Simple galvanic erosion could have weakened the bearings : or not. DO NOT TRUST TO LUCK HERE !!!!

 

And no worries about "bugging" your good forum friends "too much". AACA considers this type of assistance the exact purpose of of the applicable forum categories. I have seen the experts walk newbies through step by step work a number of times. There is nothing you will do without a professional level expert here having "been there, done that". They participate because they are kind, generous people who love to help others. But you don't want to have any of them say or think "told you so" because you skipped an essential step.!  -  Carl

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ref. the radiator,  mine was blocked but not from scale. It was brown-black silt and finer sized particles, rust no doubt.  Clean that out before putting in acids that eat calcium carbonate, which will mostly be around the water-air interface line anyway.

 

I took mine out and back flushed it with water and 100 psi air pulses. A fair bit came out but it still wasn't right. I should have persevered, but...... The radiator shop man put it face down, wet it all over, then filled it with hot water. It stayed wet where it was blocked - a triangle from bottom corners up towards the middle. It needed rodding, probably, and that is what he did. I could have persevered longer with the water and air sparging and removed more myself, perhaps. You need plenty of water and air for this!

 

I made my tool to get air into the water from a garden hose "Y" fitting. Ideally, you need high air flow and my compressor didn't supply enough. With the radiator upside down, a pulse of air would squirt water 2 or 3 m out of the top tank inlet pipe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am eternally grateful for everyone's kind help.

I called the guy who works on radiators and he said, "NO, I am trying to retire!" He did suggest I clean it out as best as possible (following the help here), go with it and keep a watchful eye on the yet to be installed temp gauge.

I'll first deal with the block. I had a few minutes this morning and thought I would poke around. Should not have worn a good shirt. The pushrods all move as the engine is cranked (hand). There are holes adjacent to the pushrods (about 1/8") and seem to be clear. The valve cover has a thick cork gasket (now trash). The rocker lever cover is next. I'll finish swabbing, then plan on the water blasting.

To watch the valves move, do I need to remove the head? (I'll go look to see if I can see them thru the spark plug holes.)

I think it is time to remove the hood. I don't see an obvious way to do that.

Carl, yes that is Gaviota. You have established my goal: drive that section of highway without white-knuckling it.

 

BTW, the previous owner did put on an electric fuel pump, but didn't finish the job and the gas line is lying on the exhaust pipe. So, new gas line work is in order. Are the fittings the same as flared plumbing fittings?

I like the idea of manually filling up the vacuum tank. That, however, is way down the road.

Jerry

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...