PhilAndrews

'51 Chieftain - Transmission fixed, troubleshooting running

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The tilt of those machined surfaces (and the height) where the two pieces bolt together should set things in such a way that all the ports line up to the holes in the block (in the up/down direction).

 

Any slop sideways can help line up the intake ports flush with the exhaust ports where they contact the block. Sometimes bolting it to a block with the bolts not tight can help you line things up.

 

Once you have all that, if the surfaces are out of plane where they contact the block, you might have to machine the whole assembly flat where it contacts the block. The quick easy way to fix that it to run it over a surface grinder, but you don't see those much in auto machine shops anymore.

 

 

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Yeah, I loosened the two sections and bolted the center two bolts down and worked outwards alternating sides as I went.

The mating faces come together at the outside edge (closest the fender) and have a modest gap at the back.

It was too hot and my shoulder was making protest so I stopped, but I am going to split it off again, clamp the exhaust by the inner two, see if I can get the intake to line up better- within the expectations of the gaskets- if not I will bolt them together, lined up as well as I can get them and see about getting the engine side faces flush. Last thing I want to do is get a little over-zealous and have the thing crack after a few heat/cool cycles.

 

Phil

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Thanks for the ride. Sounds great.

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20191013_150257.thumb.jpg.30a12f563e8d0d1db20f013fb9d6e218.jpg

Pulled the car out of the garage and cleaned up the floor. No oil leaks! (All the stains are legacy).

 

20191013_142347.thumb.jpg.d9aa5155de9b0fa20b00ed1bcf4df850.jpg

Rinsed the dirt off the car and topped the gearbox up as per manual instructions as it was a little low.

 

Gear changes are better now. Everything's still bedding in and settling down but it's better. Brakes have all seized up from being sat so that's on the to-do list also. Only the front brakes are exerting any effort right now.

 

Phil

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Ugh, I think I found the cause of the rough running.

 

Does anybody have the service sheet for a Delco-Remy 1110818 1A8 distributor?

 

Phil

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Whats wrong with the distributor?

 

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1 hour ago, Bloo said:

Whats wrong with the distributor?

 

 

20191014_171809.thumb.jpg.e856430d37c7ce7b1a95d44da737e738.jpg

 

Somebody butchered the plate. I had a go at straightening it out. It's significantly less wobbly than it was. 

 

Phil

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4 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

 

20191014_171809.thumb.jpg.e856430d37c7ce7b1a95d44da737e738.jpg

 

Somebody butchered the plate. I had a go at straightening it out. It's significantly less wobbly than it was. 

 

Phil

i have an extra nos dual point conversion kit, breaker plate with two new points, you would just move the condenser to the outside of the distributor housing. here's pictures of the conversion in my 55 pontiac 287 distributor - same size housing as yours.

PICT0135.JPG

PICT0134.JPG

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Do you find any benefit from a twin points setup? The I-8 is hardly a high revving fireball.

 

Phil

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The misfire is really apparent in this video, once I get up to real light throttle in top gear.

 

 

I ran out of time yesterday to troubleshoot after taking the distributor apart- is a strange misfire that I cannot put my finger on. I am going to move on to the carburetor next.

 

Phil

 

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On 10/13/2019 at 9:13 PM, PhilAndrews said:

Rinsed the dirt off the car

 

It's always nice to see your car from a distance rather than a foot or two away for months on end. I find myself parking in a parking lot as far away as possible....not to protect it from getting scratched but to take it in for the walk back. 

Sharp lookin'!

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4 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

Do you find any benefit from a twin points setup? The I-8 is hardly a high revving fireball.

 

Phil

most people don't understand the benefits of dual points, because the 1st point does the opening and the 2nd point does the closing, a better spark is made from the coil, and with the dual points, the point gap setting will last longer. it has nothing to do with how high or not so high an engine can reach in rpms.

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54 minutes ago, pontiac1953 said:

most people don't understand the benefits of dual points, because the 1st point does the opening and the 2nd point does the closing, a better spark is made from the coil, and with the dual points, the point gap setting will last longer. it has nothing to do with how high or not so high an engine can reach in rpms.

 

I've never had the system nor had the reason to look into it (all my CB equipped vehicles over the years have just been single points). Than you for clarifying, every day is a school day.

 

I want to investigate the fueling first because I've not done so yet but it's a strange misfire.

 

 

Edit: thinking of it, that allows for a very variable dwell...

 

 

Phil

 

Edited by PhilAndrews (see edit history)

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I adjusted the throttle and gearbox linkage- smooth, gentle gear changes at light throttle are possible.

 

I just need to work on getting the free play out of the connecting rods because they're worn and a number are missing their springs.

 

Phil

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1 hour ago, PhilAndrews said:

I adjusted the throttle and gearbox linkage- smooth, gentle gear changes at light throttle are possible.

 

I just need to work on getting the free play out of the connecting rods because they're worn and a number are missing their springs.

 

Phil

what connecting rods and springs are you referring to ?

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20191016_195445.thumb.jpg.1020aaa96fa21b7453c00d6efb3df852.jpg

Throttle linkage. 

From left to right, R pin, washer, spring, throttle crossbar, rod to carburetor.

 

The spring was missing so the connection was very sloppy. Now it is held in line in normal operation but can still squeeze sideways if things jam up.

 

Phil

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Really bad bogging down and misfire at light to medium throttle.

 

Feathering the throttle generates good running and good gear changes. Flat to the floor provides decent get-up-and-go once in top but the 1-2 change is not happy.

I think it's all yet out of adjustment, but I do need to sort the engine running problems first.

 

--Phil

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Some suggestions:

 

1) Do a compression check. All spark plugs removed, throttle open. Pay attention to the second puff, and also what it tops out at. Don't get too hung up on the actual numbers, you're looking for one that is WAY different than the rest.

 

2) Measure your spark plug wires with an ohmmeter. One of those cheap/free little red Harbor freight digitals will do fine if you don't have a VOM or DMM. I wouldn't even remove them from the cap unless you find something wrong. Measure from the terminal under the cap out to the spark plug end. It is kind of fiddly because you will have to scrape around on the terminals with your probes at both the terminal under the cap, and also at the spark plug end, to get a good connection for the test. You are again looking for something radically different. For instance, if the wire is copper or metallic, the resistance will be really low, it could even be as low as a couple of ohms, or maybe a few hundred if they are spiral core wires. If they are resistor wires (probably), they will have maybe 2k-5k ohms (or more on cars with longer wires than yours). The resistance is spread over the length of the wire, so the longer ones should be higher. A shorter wire with a higher resistance is EXTREMELY suspect. If you find one with way too much resistance, replace it, and replace the rotor in the distributor too.

 

3) Inspect your distributor cap under a bright light, looking for anything that looks like a carbon track (or crack) either between terminals, or down to the edge where it contacts the distributor housing. Look on the outside of the cap as well. Look at the the carbon button that contacts the rotor. Make sure its there. It needs to touch. If it is spring loaded, make sure it moves. If it is the sort of cap that does not have a spring under the carbon button, then the rotor will have a flat springy part at the center to contact it. Just make sure the two are going to touch, and you are not going to have a big gap up there when it is assembled.

 

4) Disconnect the line going to your wiper system. Plug the end that goes to the intake manifold. I am going to guess you have a vacuum booster pump, but either way, plug the line going to the manifold and make sure it seals. A leak in the pump diaphragm, the wiper motor itself, or the hoses can cause a huge miss.

 

5) Try different spark plugs. A cracked insulator can cause all sorts of havoc, and the plug will look just fine.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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10 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Measure your spark plug wires with an ohmmeter.

Just to throw in my 2 cents. Even though it may not be the same vehicle or year I just wanted to share. 

I have a '94 Class B camper van that started to mimic a transmission problem. It would shake in overdrive or when acceleration was needed. It also kinda ran crappy at idle but with all these problems, still got me around. I had changed everything but the plug wires so I did that couple weeks ago. Amazing! It starts without hesitation, has great acceleration and the transmission runs flawless. I would have never believed a $65 difference in performance.

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20 minutes ago, Bloo said:

Some suggestions:

 

1) Do a compression check. All spark plugs removed, throttle open. Pay attention to the second puff, and also what it tops out at. Don't get too hung up on the actual numbers, you're looking for one that is WAY different than the rest.

I do need to get a compression gauge. Cranking over on the starter WOT it's pretty even though.

 

20 minutes ago, Bloo said:

2) Measure your spark plug wires with an ohmmeter. One of those cheap/free little red Harbor freight digitals will do fine if you don't have a VOM or DMM. I wouldn't even remove them from the cap unless you find something wrong. Measure from the terminal under the cap out to the spark plug end. It is kind of fiddly because you will have to scrape around on the terminals with your probes at both the terminal under the cap, and also at the spark plug end, to get a good connection for the test. You are again looking for something radically different. For instance, if the wire is copper or metallic, the resistance will be really low, it could even be as low as a couple of ohms, or maybe a few hundred if they are spiral core wires. If they are resistor wires (probably), they will have maybe 2k-5k ohms (or more on cars with longer wires than yours). The resistance is spread over the length of the wire, so the longer ones should be higher. A shorter wire with a higher resistance is EXTREMELY suspect. If you find one with way too much resistance, replace it, and replace the rotor in the distributor too.

I have a decent meter, I'll give that a try. I don't have a megger but my VTVM reads low Ohm range accurately (it's good down to about 1/5 of an Ohm, try that with a cheap DMM)

 

20 minutes ago, Bloo said:

3) Inspect your distributor cap under a bright light, looking for anything that looks like a carbon track (or crack) either between terminals, or down to the edge where it contacts the distributor housing. Look on the outside of the cap as well. Look at the the carbon button that contacts the rotor. Make sure its there. It needs to touch. If it is spring loaded, make sure it moves. If it is the sort of cap that does not have a spring under the carbon button, then the rotor will have a flat springy part at the center to contact it. Just make sure the two are going to touch, and you are not going to have a big gap up there when it is assembled.

Didn't see anything but it's an unknown quantity and I think I'm just gonna shotgun it for a new cap and arm.

 

20 minutes ago, Bloo said:

4) Disconnect the line going to your wiper system. Plug the end that goes to the intake manifold. I am going to guess you have a vacuum booster pump, but either way, plug the line going to the manifold and make sure it seals. A leak in the pump diaphragm, the wiper motor itself, or the hoses can cause a huge miss.

Currently disconnected and plugged with a bolt in the manifold take-off.

 

20 minutes ago, Bloo said:

5) Try different spark plugs. A cracked insulator can cause all sorts of havoc, and the plug will look just fine.

 

Also a genuine possibility, 7 of them are what came with the car.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Summershandy said:

Just to throw in my 2 cents. Even though it may not be the same vehicle or year I just wanted to share. 

I have a '94 Class B camper van that started to mimic a transmission problem. It would shake in overdrive or when acceleration was needed. It also kinda ran crappy at idle but with all these problems, still got me around. I had changed everything but the plug wires so I did that couple weeks ago. Amazing! It starts without hesitation, has great acceleration and the transmission runs flawless. I would have never believed a $65 difference in performance.

Yeah, I do want to change the leads. I'm trying to find a source of decent phenolic right-angle caps. I'll probably buy a length of wire and make my own wires up so they are the correct length. The insulators rubber boots are shot on a few of them, but do not track visibly when run in the dark. Not to say they aren't but that was the best my eyeball could muster.

 

Also there is a certain amount of energy being lost through the cap because my neon plug tester flickers dim and then goes with a bright flash each ignition stroke.

 

I'm hoping that changing the ignition sundries, giving the carb a decent clean out and another tune-up solves it.

 

--Phil

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For what its worth, I am not running boots at all on my 36 at the spark plug end (as original). I do have them on the distributor end, but that is mainly to keep water from getting down inside the towers and making a corroded mess. Of course it is better to seal things up with boots. I have been out driving in the rain and no issues yet, despite reports of it being a problem when the cars were new.

 

Boots or no boots, it doesn't necessarily have to arc over to miss. It there is an open circuit or extremely high resistance somewhere, like an open-circuit plug wire, or a missing carbon button in the cap, the coil will run out of energy before it establishes a spark at the plug.

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20 minutes ago, Bloo said:

For what its worth, I am not running boots at all on my 36 at the spark plug end (as original). I do have them on the distributor end, but that is mainly to keep water from getting down inside the towers and making a corroded mess. Of course it is better to seal things up with boots. I have been out driving in the rain and no issues yet, despite reports of it being a problem when the cars were new.

 

Boots or no boots, it doesn't necessarily have to arc over to miss. It there is an open circuit or extremely high resistance somewhere, like an open-circuit plug wire, or a missing carbon button in the cap, the coil will run out of energy before it establishes a spark at the plug.

The belt it gave me at the plug end suggests otherwise- it had enough energy to go through the rubber and arc through about 1/4" of air before hitting the spark plug terminal and grounding itself by sparking inside the engine...

 

It makes me think that maybe there is too much ability to spark from this coil

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