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'51 Chieftain - On The Road


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13 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

Manifold isn't sealing worth a hoot so need to slacken that off and redo.

 

Can't remember if I asked if you checked the manifold. Mine was leaking and I had to get it machined. It seals perfectly now. 

Great job Phil!

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8 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

The exhaust in the center is the worst- that's where it's leaking from, primarily.

 

I need to find a place that is willing and able to skim it down a touch. There aren't many good, old-school machine shops around here.

 

Phil

i've heard of some using two sets of intake/exhaust gaskets to get a better seal. but i agree about getting the manifold set milled to make sure it's perfectly straight and true.

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I'm going to take some measurements and eyeball how it sits. It's very particular also about how it's tightened down also, must start from the center and work outward.

 

A few people have suggested the hard work method of spray gluing a sheet of abrasive to a sheet of glass and using that to face the surfaces.

 

Phil

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I had hoped and tried Permatex Ultra Copper to seal up my original leaks with little success. I took mine to a reputable shop but they still said they had a hard time fumbling around with it. They ended up breaking the choke tube off but that was an easy fix. I was still skeptical when I reinstalled it but they obviously made it better. Worse part was the price but what was I to do? 

I think I've seen somebody using a belt sander too on the manifold but that can't be very uniform. Would be easier but you could really screw things up!

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Phil.. did you have intake and exhaust manifolds apart..?   I would let the 4 bolts (2 long,2short) slightly loose, then torque manifold to block. Then tighten these 4 bolts. May save you some trouble machining. Just your time.  John

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John, I did not. It usually sits better than it did this time. How does it locate the two sections? Simply by the bolts clamping the two together?

 

If so that may help as it appears to be the exhaust manifold is slightly out of line to the intake. It may have a warp too looking at the pattern of soot it left behind when I took it off to put the engine back in the car.

 

I'll take a look if it wants to split when I get back home (currently in Texas for a wedding, been seeing all the shiny cars and bikes heading to Mississippi the opposite way all day- Cruisin' The Coast starts tomorrow).

 

Phil

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.As you know, it onnly takes a few .0001 inch to leak. The 4 bolts could possibly have left it shift a little through handling, on /off the bench. It is 60 + years old and things get brittle. I had mine apart when i repaired the heat riser. The new gasket between the intake/exhaust manifolds will compress slightly.thats why i left them loose.. if you have new gaskets all around, i would sequence torque all 14 bolts/studs together. (Intake/exhaust studs to block and manifold to manifold bolts) hope th8s helps.  Nice job on the trans... John

 

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That's the problem, right there. John, you were correct.

 

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All 4 bolts sheared, despite application of heat. I can get a grip on 3 but one will probably need to be drilled out.

 

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For now though, they're going to soak a while in PB Blaster. 

 

Pain that the bolts sheared (didn't really expect anything less to be honest) but glad I split the manifolds because the join between the two has been leaking for a while, there's soot all over the underside of the intake manifold.

 

I'll hopefully get the bolts out, new ones in and everything sitting down nice and flat and sealed and quiet.

 

Phil

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2 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

*head shears off*

 

Exact reason I didn't attempt it when I had my leakage. I had already broken a flange bolt removing the exhaust then went ahead breaking off the "ear" of the manifold flange itself trying to remove the rest of it with shitty taps. Ended up costing me in repairs on top of the machining. Sometimes when it ain't broke.....

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I may speak to my neighbor. He has a decent welding machine, should be able to weld a couple nuts on the remnants, give them a couple wallops when red hot and see if they'll come loose that way first.

 

There's more of the 4th stud left than I initially thought, there's gasket material I can remove (carefully, it's probably asbestos) to allow better access.

 

It looks like there's maybe an inch of threads actually into the metal so there's still a chance of getting these out. Much heat required!

 

Phil

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Phil,
I feel your pain. I was so surprised when none of my studs broke off taking the manifolds off the block. Very solid. But I had to shell out like $85 just to get the manifold-to-manifold bolts removed. If all else fails, I have an extra intake you can just have. Great job on everything by the way, I’ve been following along. 

Edited by cevensky (see edit history)
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24 minutes ago, john hess said:

That sucks !!  But you found a second leak also. With what i saw you do with the trans, this will be a piece of cake for you phil..                   john

 

Well, hopefully. Where there's a will there's a way, I guess!

 

Manifold bolts/studs are always a crapshoot, normally with the game rigged against you...

 

Phil

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VideoCapture_20191007-224819.thumb.jpg.2892fcd1f837668f4f3ac2e8666638fb.jpg

There was fire.

 

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There were drill bits.

 

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Finally there were threaded holes.

 

The intake manifold was moderately easy. I've already had to drill the exhaust oversize to 3/8 and am beginning to tap a thread (got about 3/4" deep done tonight but it's hard metal and slow going and I've still got another one to go yet.

 

Phil

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On 10/6/2019 at 10:37 PM, cevensky said:

Phil,
I feel your pain. I was so surprised when none of my studs broke off taking the manifolds off the block. Very solid. But I had to shell out like $85 just to get the manifold-to-manifold bolts removed. If all else fails, I have an extra intake you can just have. Great job on everything by the way, I’ve been following along. 

 

Do you have a split set, just the exhaust? If this all goes pear-shaped I may be looking for one...

 

--Phil

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Opposite corner of the state to me! I'm in the south-east, about 60 miles south of New Orleans.

 

I'll see how this goes. If it clamps together adequately we should be ok; if not I may be giving you a holler.

 

 

Thanks

 

 

--Phil

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Ah perfect! I get the chance to leave Shreveport for the south every now and then. Good to know there's an experienced hydramatic rebuilder in-state 😂 (only partially a joke!), I've seen some of your other work rebuilding the radio and all that and I'm real impressed. I'll be needing help in the future

There's no good reason your manifolds shouldn't seat together with a new gasket between them. I'll be running the same experiment when my 8 is out of the shop in a month or two. 

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Manifold now bolts together- with no gaskets, bolting the manifolds to the engine makes them seal correctly to the engine but the two halves don't come together flat or correctly. 

Hopefully should be able to get it as close as possible, I'm going to then try sand the faces flat if it won't sit.

 

Phil

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The tilt of those machined surfaces (and the height) where the two pieces bolt together should set things in such a way that all the ports line up to the holes in the block (in the up/down direction).

 

Any slop sideways can help line up the intake ports flush with the exhaust ports where they contact the block. Sometimes bolting it to a block with the bolts not tight can help you line things up.

 

Once you have all that, if the surfaces are out of plane where they contact the block, you might have to machine the whole assembly flat where it contacts the block. The quick easy way to fix that it to run it over a surface grinder, but you don't see those much in auto machine shops anymore.

 

 

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Yeah, I loosened the two sections and bolted the center two bolts down and worked outwards alternating sides as I went.

The mating faces come together at the outside edge (closest the fender) and have a modest gap at the back.

It was too hot and my shoulder was making protest so I stopped, but I am going to split it off again, clamp the exhaust by the inner two, see if I can get the intake to line up better- within the expectations of the gaskets- if not I will bolt them together, lined up as well as I can get them and see about getting the engine side faces flush. Last thing I want to do is get a little over-zealous and have the thing crack after a few heat/cool cycles.

 

Phil

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20191013_150257.thumb.jpg.30a12f563e8d0d1db20f013fb9d6e218.jpg

Pulled the car out of the garage and cleaned up the floor. No oil leaks! (All the stains are legacy).

 

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Rinsed the dirt off the car and topped the gearbox up as per manual instructions as it was a little low.

 

Gear changes are better now. Everything's still bedding in and settling down but it's better. Brakes have all seized up from being sat so that's on the to-do list also. Only the front brakes are exerting any effort right now.

 

Phil

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4 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

 

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Somebody butchered the plate. I had a go at straightening it out. It's significantly less wobbly than it was. 

 

Phil

i have an extra nos dual point conversion kit, breaker plate with two new points, you would just move the condenser to the outside of the distributor housing. here's pictures of the conversion in my 55 pontiac 287 distributor - same size housing as yours.

PICT0135.JPG

PICT0134.JPG

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The misfire is really apparent in this video, once I get up to real light throttle in top gear.

 

 

I ran out of time yesterday to troubleshoot after taking the distributor apart- is a strange misfire that I cannot put my finger on. I am going to move on to the carburetor next.

 

Phil

 

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On 10/13/2019 at 9:13 PM, PhilAndrews said:

Rinsed the dirt off the car

 

It's always nice to see your car from a distance rather than a foot or two away for months on end. I find myself parking in a parking lot as far away as possible....not to protect it from getting scratched but to take it in for the walk back. 

Sharp lookin'!

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4 hours ago, PhilAndrews said:

Do you find any benefit from a twin points setup? The I-8 is hardly a high revving fireball.

 

Phil

most people don't understand the benefits of dual points, because the 1st point does the opening and the 2nd point does the closing, a better spark is made from the coil, and with the dual points, the point gap setting will last longer. it has nothing to do with how high or not so high an engine can reach in rpms.

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54 minutes ago, pontiac1953 said:

most people don't understand the benefits of dual points, because the 1st point does the opening and the 2nd point does the closing, a better spark is made from the coil, and with the dual points, the point gap setting will last longer. it has nothing to do with how high or not so high an engine can reach in rpms.

 

I've never had the system nor had the reason to look into it (all my CB equipped vehicles over the years have just been single points). Than you for clarifying, every day is a school day.

 

I want to investigate the fueling first because I've not done so yet but it's a strange misfire.

 

 

Edit: thinking of it, that allows for a very variable dwell...

 

 

Phil

 

Edited by PhilAndrews (see edit history)
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  • PhilAndrews changed the title to '51 Chieftain - Valve job
  • PhilAndrews changed the title to '51 Chieftain - On The Road

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