PhilAndrews Posted October 23, 2020 Author Share Posted October 23, 2020 Last night I dismantled the valve block, and I'm glad I did. A fair bit of band dust had collected in the bores and the valves weren't smooth to operate. I had avoided rubbing the valves down last time, but there were a few burrs and nicks on the valves that were causing them to get hung up, so those were very carefully removed with high grit paper. I reassembled it all and now it's ready to go back in. The truth will be in the way it drives. Phil 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 24, 2020 Author Share Posted October 24, 2020 Gearbox is back together, heat shield is on. Just need to fill back up with transmission fluid and I can get it started up and go test. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 Filled the gearbox up and went for a drive. It mostly behaves very well as in the video but occasionally it doesn't. One thing it did, which was a lightbulb moment was to engage the parking pawl going into reverse. That should only happen when there's no oil pressure so next port of call is the pressure regulator to check it's not sticking. Phil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GARY F Posted October 25, 2020 Share Posted October 25, 2020 Good to see it going again. Nice work. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 25, 2020 Author Share Posted October 25, 2020 I pulled the regulator out and it's good, the gears tend to get hung up after being in neutral or reverse. I'm going to completely strip it down and flush it all though again. I'll get to the bottom of it, there a couple valves I didn't pull (stupid). Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 Took a photo tonight after a shakedown run. Turn signal relay has quit. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 26, 2020 Author Share Posted October 26, 2020 Rewired the car to accept the more modern 2-pin blinker relay. I like this because that type is cheap and easy to source. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 28, 2020 Author Share Posted October 28, 2020 Today, ahead of the bad weather I decided to take the car to work. Also got the correct thermal type turn signal flasher relay from Napa. Now it's all boarded up inside the garage. Weather eye on the horizon again. Phil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 29, 2020 Author Share Posted October 29, 2020 Garage took a beating, lost a good portion of the roof. Everybody is safe, I'm running on generator. House is ok, car is ok. Just got a couple thousand I need to sink into repairs. Great. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted October 29, 2020 Share Posted October 29, 2020 Sorry to hear that but glad to hear at same time... If it makes any sense..!! You guys sure took a beating this simmer..... Glad you are ok... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 30, 2020 Author Share Posted October 30, 2020 One hole patched up, another set of loose sheets secured. Workshop roof next, but that needs new materials. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted October 31, 2020 Author Share Posted October 31, 2020 Cleared most of the issues from this half of the roof. Got the main doors repaired well enough to open and close again. More work tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 Got the last of the broken roof off, beginning to make repairs. Washed the car to cheer myself up a little. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john hess Posted November 1, 2020 Share Posted November 1, 2020 Looks like the mural was safe also... Stay positive... Things can be repaired and replaced. Just glad you and family are ok.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 1, 2020 Author Share Posted November 1, 2020 55 minutes ago, john hess said: Looks like the mural was safe also... Stay positive... Things can be repaired and replaced. Just glad you and family are ok.. Yeah, both Chieftains survived. The house and everybody in it is good, which is the main concern. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 2, 2020 Author Share Posted November 2, 2020 A little trip to town to clear my head and get provisions. It's running better now though the gearbox is still getting hung up. Once I've finished with the house I'll get back on the car and pull the valve block out again. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 5, 2020 Author Share Posted November 5, 2020 Finished framing and boxing the roof yesterday. Got the first metal sheet on. Hopefully I'll get the rest after work today. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 Roof is all done, I've moved things back into the workshop and I can begin work on the car again. That was an interlude I could have done without. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 9, 2020 Author Share Posted November 9, 2020 Went to my favorite little drive in and grabbed a chocolate malt. Phil 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted November 9, 2020 Share Posted November 9, 2020 On 10/14/2020 at 2:43 PM, Summershandy said: Hey Phil! This just came up on a buy and sell just 3 hours from me. They're asking $2,000 USD. That's about what these project cars go for around here. Saw it and thought of you.....no info on the engine condition. Mark This is a Canadian Pontiac. It's barely a cousin to the Chieftain. It's a Chev body with a Pontiac dash and grille, and a 6 cyl Pontiac engine. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 13, 2020 Author Share Posted November 13, 2020 Got a pair of the correct model horns for it now. Just need to clean them up and make a bracket so they fit. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 14, 2020 Author Share Posted November 14, 2020 Making a start on getting the horns looking all pretty again. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 One horn done. Gearbox is being a pain again. I've isolated the behavior- 2 patterns with a common denominator so I ordered a gauge that'll read the oil pressure at the test point on the gearbox so I can run through the diagnostics in the manual and try determine cause. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bloo Posted November 17, 2020 Share Posted November 17, 2020 On 10/23/2020 at 6:04 AM, PhilAndrews said: I had avoided rubbing the valves down last time, but there were a few burrs and nicks on the valves that were causing them to get hung up, so those were very carefully removed with high grit paper. Don't do that! I wish I had seen this earlier. The sharp edges on automatic transmission spool valves are essential to their operation. If you took the edge off, even a little, you most likely need another valve body. Spool valves do need to be clean, and need be able to fall out of the bore under their own weight. I may not be obvious looking at them, but in operation they are balanced, in other words a stiff spring would be completely balanced by hydraulic pressure on the other side of the valve. The pressure imbalance needed for one to move under operating conditions is tiny. Don't fall into the trap of thinking since there is a big spring in there it takes a bunch of pressure to move the valves in normal operation. It doesn't. One tiny speck of dust in an automatic can wreak unbelievable havoc. Most of the crud from linings winds up in the pan and stays there but not all of it. The sharp edges and extremely close clearances of the spool valves allow them to push tiny particles out of the way, rather than getting one caught under the edge. Don't use sandpaper or wire wheels or anything like that. Assemble it in a CLEAN area on a CLEAN bench. If you have to do it in your garage, shut all the doors, shut off all the fans and wet down the floors. NO SHOP RAGS. The lint will cause the valves to stick. Clean each part in clean solvent, or brake clean, blow dry with compressed air, dunk in clean transmission fluid, then put in. If the manual specifies torque for the bolts holding the valve body together or to the transmission (probably) then follow the specs. Uneven or wrong tightness can cause the bores to distort enough for the valves to stick even if they are fine on the bench. Good luck, and let us know how it turns out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) What I took off is on the leading edge, leaving as much of the 90 degree of the valve intact as remains. It looks like it's possibly been dropped. I haven't put any abrasives on the machine faces. I wasn't clear enough but thank you for the warning, not a lot of people know and ruin the valve and bore. All the fixings are torqued to spec. I'll probably end up needing another valve block and valves, this one is.. worn. Phil Edited November 17, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 17, 2020 Author Share Posted November 17, 2020 (edited) Further to that, yes. The valves do slide out under their own weight on both sides. I matched the governor plungers to the best bore as suggested in the book; the 1-2 bore has a couple of high points as evidenced by the witness marks. They are helical so part of the casting rather than being scored. I'm surprised the damage isn't worse, considering how much in the way of metal particles were inside the system. The failure is 1st gear holds for much higher road speed than it should per throttle position after the gearbox is put into either N or R; it will then change violently into 3rd and then be reluctant to engage 4th. If you slow down before it engages 4th, it'll change back down 3-2-1 and then replay the high speed (15mph or thereabouts) 1-3 gear thump over and over. The speed at which it changes 1-3 is critical, and throttle position has no bearing on it. Snapping the throttle shut will not make it change up, only road speed. Once it's engaged 4th, so long as the shifter remains in Dr, it'll cycle through the gears smoothly at the speed you'd expect from the throttle position. 4-3 kickdown operates correctly and does not impact gear changes after it's been used. No gears slip. It'll happily squat the back end down and leave 2 pale tire tracks up the street if you stamp on the gas from a standstill, through 1st and 2nd. Occasionally R will engage the parking pawl if you aren't at a complete halt, rather than the cone only engaging, then the pawl coming in once the gearbox has become stationary. By general habit I try not to change the position of the shifter until the car is fully at a rest, was just taught that way. Some of the symptoms feel like a sticking gear selection valve, but some hark of low line pressure. I'm not 100% sure the compensator valve isn't getting stuck. Gauge should be here by close of work tomorrow, I'll have to get an extension piece to fit it. I will run the road tests as outlined in the book and see if it's regulating within spec. Front pump is NOS. Rear pump is original to the engine but wasn't in bad shape. Regulator is existing to the gearbox, TV valve shuttle and pressure relief plunger move smoothly in the pump bore. Phil Edited November 17, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 18, 2020 Author Share Posted November 18, 2020 Need to get some fittings for that, but that should be easy enough to read on the move. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 Test tonight per the book. Regulates steadily at 60psi. In gear, pressure rises to about 100psi at full throttle. Off throttle in 4th slowing down, stable 60psi. Reverse, a brief dip to 45psi then up to a wobbly 130-150psi as the reverse high pressure comes in and the valve shuttles to regulate. I got it to misbehave one time, and the pressure was stable at 60psi, modulated with throttle position. I can pump it up to 60psi easily on the starter too, so it's making good low speed pressure. Forgot to do rear pump pressure test, I'll do that when it's light tomorrow. So, that does narrow it down to the 1-2 valve sticking. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 19, 2020 Author Share Posted November 19, 2020 From the book: The piston has a slight burr on the edge. I've got some jeweler's loupes coming in the mail so I can better see what I'm doing. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 Had a look at the valves today. They're pretty worn. The valve body is too. Found a couple high points causing trouble. Works better now but I'll probably pull it again and rework it. Didn't want to go hog-wild and cause more trouble than I was fixing. Really it needs one that's got fewer miles on. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldtech Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 You are doing quite a job here. It's too bad they don't have a real filter on these, the screen is so -so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 (edited) 4 hours ago, Oldtech said: You are doing quite a job here. It's too bad they don't have a real filter on these, the screen is so -so. Yeah, the brick-catcher is not much use other than stopping the biggest chunks from being drawn in. Phil Edited November 22, 2020 by PhilAndrews (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 22, 2020 Author Share Posted November 22, 2020 Went for a drive today to the grocery store to see how it would behave. For the most part, very well. It got hung up one time after sitting in traffic waiting to make a left. I think I can improve on that, the bore for the 1-2 valve is not as clean as it should be in terms of surface. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornkurt Posted November 22, 2020 Share Posted November 22, 2020 Anybody else with this problem, I have a 1953 Dual-range Hydramatic from 60,000 mile car. Fluid looks and smells good. $350 & actual shipping. Kurt 641-648-9086 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 1 hour ago, Kornkurt said: Anybody else with this problem, I have a 1953 Dual-range Hydramatic from 60,000 mile car. Fluid looks and smells good. $350 & actual shipping. Kurt 641-648-9086 Please correct me if I'm wrong but the main change on the dual-range was just the control hydraulics, right? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kornkurt Posted November 23, 2020 Share Posted November 23, 2020 Dual Range came out in 1952 and had 4 speeds. The nice part is engine braking in 3rd gear for hills and mountains. I don't know what changes were done to make it Dual Range. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 6 minutes ago, Kornkurt said: Dual Range came out in 1952 and had 4 speeds. The nice part is engine braking in 3rd gear for hills and mountains. I don't know what changes were done to make it Dual Range. I have a feeling that was the primary change made- the standard Hydramatic, if so fitted, is physically able to do things like 3rd gear hold. It's nice that they decided to develop it a little and reply to customer requests. For in the flat around here, the regular Hydramatic works well, I could see where 3rd gear hold would be useful. 2nd gear is too much of a jump down for holding speeds where there's any kind of traffic behind you. Phil 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 23, 2020 Author Share Posted November 23, 2020 You can see what it does in this video. Out of the driveway it got hung up, bottom of the street it worked well. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 25, 2020 Author Share Posted November 25, 2020 Second coat of paint on the horn lid. That's now drying and once it's set, I'll flat it back and see if it needs another coat. Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilAndrews Posted November 28, 2020 Author Share Posted November 28, 2020 Finished the paint on the horns. Just managed to get that bracket off, the nuts were rusty and one needed to be heated up red hot to undo. I'm going to make up a nice bracket to hold them in place. Phil 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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