tg1973

Lycoming CE 4 cyclinder engine help

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Hi guys,

 

I've just brought a 1923 Gardner which has a Lycoming CE engine in it that has an oil leak and was wondering if anybody knows anything about these engines

 

Thanks for any help.

Terry.

IMG_20181204_161147.jpg

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Terry 

Did you know that a Gardner Web site exists that is managed by Bob Gardner

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3 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

What is your definition of an oil leak ?

Yes. Front? Rear? Middle?

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IMHO if a 1923 car is not leaking oil you better make sure it has oil in it.

                                 LOL Bob

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Hi Guys,

 

Thanks for all the help, the oil leak I thought was coming from the rear of the engine to be more arcuate from the hole in the flywheel cover and I was thinking it was coming from the sump pan crank oil seal, but I have been told that this engine does not have an end crank seal and will leak if the oil pan is too full. 

 

This car and engine is all new to me but I am learning and its great fun to drive.

 

Cheers Terry

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The reason why I ask is that most early (at least pre-1929 or so, though some manufactures "got it" earlier and some "got it" later) cars are going to leak - if you want to park it on a pristine white floor or oriental rug you are going to be sadly disappointing with results after spending countless amounts of money to have it continue leaking.  I have multiple printer pans under all the cars and pretty much they I would say they all have "a lot of oil" in them. Just make sure to pull the pan and clean prior to starting - in case car is a fire breathing monster.

 

As to the early "seals" most crankshaft "seals" I have seen use sort of a reverse thread and a drain (basically as oil escapes it "threads' its way back into the engine, but when you stop the car they generally puddle - if you are only loosing a tablespoon or two upon "turning off" then my suggestion is that you find another way to be beat yourself senseless. 

 

Also, you could run the car for a half hour or so and then turn it off and photograph your oil puddle and see what opinion is (all be it a lot of people in AACA are not use to earlier cars).

 

And always park the car as level as possible 'ALWAYS" - seal technology in axles and rest of car are also probably pretty primitive too. 

 

Also, car is probably designed for a 50 weight engine oil (40 at minimum) and anything less is just not going to work.

 

Usually I have to be pretty careful where I park - not in front of someones front door.

 

Sidenote:  A lot of updraft carburetors also puddle gas when you stop the car - it looses draft and whatever raw gas is in manifold ends up pouring out carb drain.

 

As an additional side note:  you may want to consider a set of windwings (they would clamp onto the windshield post) - they will make 20's car driving much more pleasurable. 

 

Pretty car !

 

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This is what you are looking for windwing wise, but not sure current options on ebay are best choices.

Search vintage car parts - key word "wind wings"

382727160717

192804866298

 

For reference: Here is a Packard with a decent set of windwings on it.

1924-Packard-Single-Eight-7-passenger/153349434164 

153349434164 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)

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Hi John,

 

Thanks for your help I shall monitor the oil 😉, we do have windows for the front sides but they are in the storage trunk with the side curtains, it also has a screen to go across the back of the front seats to help inclose the rear passenger area. 

I'll try to find some pictures.

 

Thanks Terry

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This has nothing to do with your oil leak; just a heads-up---

If you should take your engine down look at the oil pump carefully---the CT, a sister engine, often (always?) uses a potmetal type pump that is often cracked and expanded in place, coming out in pieces (workarounds/other pumps've been fitted by other owners)...

The series seems to run CE, CF, CH, CT and C4, C4W, CUWM; I believe a CF owner (Auburn) advised his pump was cast iron. It's possible the potmetal pump may've been limited to the /some CTs..

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Go to the Gardiner web site and look  under technical information. You should find tune up information there. I posted an inquiry about the Gardner cars on the AACA general forum about a 1924 Gardner tour delux I found in NH. The biggest problem with these cars are the oil pump which is made of pot metal and is pushed into the engine block. It is a pressed fit and will break, so do not mess with it if it is in good shape. 

I found a service manual for a Auburn 4-44  that gave much needed information to tune up and service this car. Bob Gardner put it on the website. Apparently, the  lycoming engines were used in high end cars.

Parts are another issue, so time will tell. Do not hesistate to contact Bob or my self. Paul

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pgb123---sorry to hear the CEs also have the dodgy oil pump---do you know if the Gardner CFs have the potmetal pump???

w

What've the Gardner owners done about it???

The oldihc site should still have some info re' their new-pump work, and a Fageol tractor with a CT was redone with another pump in Vancouver, WA. I know I've got notes somewhere, but...

If there's a specific pump used for replacement I''ll make a note (and an effort to get this info together)......

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Bud let me know if you find that information on the oil pump.  I down loaded it years ago from oldihc and lost it when my PC crashed.  I contacted oldhc and they no longer had it in their files.  Gardners were made for 12 years and the oil pump on the CE engine is the biggest failure point I know of. 
Also thanks for sending Terry to my web site, I was excited to hear about a Radio Special in England.

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Well, I looked in the places the info should be, but, of course, zero...but then, again , was rescued bu Google...

Brought up a couple CT discussions, one saying David Parfitt, who posts on smokstak, was rebuilding a Fageol tractor with the CT in the UK and had been in touch with the NZ/AU people who'd fab'd a new pump for their IH truck/s...I believe David posts under his own name , so you should be able to email him thru smokstak...

Jim Tremble in Vancouver, WA, was involved in rebuilding a similar Fageol; someone else did a new pump, apparently independent of the NZ/AU guys...Jim couldn't recall who the man was, but might know who has thr tractor, who, in turn, might recall the mechanic...Jim also posts under his own name on smokstak..

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No luck in my few IH notes...

But do believe speedtruckbill, who lives in US and posts on oldihc and smokstak? and/or slospeed, oldihc poster in Melbourne, were either involved in the original oldihc pump work or commented at the time, so if still available could have info.

Really annoying that this's come up several times and I can't lay my hand on anything definite...

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Hi Bud

 

Yes Speedtruck Bill, Al/Jackiedog29 (RIP) and myself were the ones on the Oldihc site that produced the oil pump conversion for the Lycoming engine. With the passing of Al only 6 adaptors were made and one of them did go into the Fegol Tractor.

Mine has been running now since the restoration was completed in 2012 and done around 1500 miles since. Starts up and pumps at a steady 40psi.

 

Terry has been in contact with me and I have passed on the information I have.

IMG_1732.jpg

Oil pump screen.jpg

Oil pump.jpg

DSC04010.jpg

SAM_1442.jpg

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The rear main bearing on these engines do have the spiral return and drain tube. you can see the tube just to the right of the oil pump in above pictures.

 

Terrys engine is missing the drain tube which wont be helping. His oil pump is in good condition so I didn't go into all the details with him about the conversion.

 

I do run a couple of sites for the pre1940 international trucks and am still active on the oldihc site.

 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/316122235181405/

 

https://vihtr.com/

 

http://oldihc.org/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=5&sid=6e207e150866ce6ffe19e071b42a2e47

 

DSC03970.JPG

Edited by Slospeed (see edit history)

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slospeed: "...one of the adapters went into the Fageol tractor..."...

Which one?? Davids in the UK or Jim T's in Vancouver??

I've assumed Jims in Vancouver was a  different workaround...

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