Greetings, and a value estimation..

[kgreen]

Airfare, lodging, ammo, new gun case that wouldn't freak out TSA, licence one bottle of 12 year old MaCallan for AFTER the day's hunt and the box of wild rice for $1.38!

Edited January 23, 2019 by kgreen (see edit history)

[ron hausmann]

Licespray,

     You are getting some really great and sage feedback!

     I feel I need to add my two cents worth, insofar as I undertook several "lost cause" cars which also were orphan makes like you current candidate-car. Here are some personal observations that I volunteer to you;

 

1. ENJOYMENT -You can heartily enjoy a few years of restoration (wood carving, painting and sanding, parts scrounging, etc. FAR more than driving the finished product. I have finally realized that for me at least, I enjoy restoring Kissel Kars more than driving or showing them when done. That's a very hard thing for some of us to admit but others above have intimated this also. It's true!.

2. EXOTIC MAKE RESTORATION - Your candidate car is a rare one. For these weirdo-makes with impossible-to-find parts, you'll have to adlib. But with perseverance you will find clubs with parts, or machinists who enjoy old cars, or "stuff that will work". And you are apparently handy. One nice thing about these rare cars is that you can usually adlib and make improper parts work perfectly, and nobody will ever know. (I use modern pistons, pins, valves, and rods in my Kissels - they run better but never can be detected!)

3. COST - DaveMc in an earlier post here, offered you some great advice on cost which is in my opinion, spot on! You will spend $50,000 - $80,000 to perfectly restore this car. But in todays dollars, you might then be able to sell it for only $30,000 - $40,000. Not a money maker. But then - - - What is the value to you of years of relaxation doing the restoration and then sharing it with your family and friends ? My restorations make years, decades of family memories!

4. DETERMINATION - I never did a Sleeve-valve engine, but when I started doing Kissels, I had never done one either. Restoring these old ones kind of restores one's faith in one's own ability.

Here are before and after pictures of my current challenge, the only existing 1918 Kissel Kar, Model 6-38 Gibraltar Sedanlette. It has a removeable carved wood black top and converts to a 4-passenger roadster. I carved the wood

Thanks for letting me comment. 

RON HAUSMANN P.E.

[DavidMc]

"2. Go for it, but only if the engine can be made to run beforehand.  "

 

Getting it running would not be important in my view because it may  damage the engine.  The cylinders may have rusted, rings seized, oil ways blocked etc.  I would strip the engine completely to clean it and assess condition.  Having got that far I would have do whatever is necessary to rebuild it before attempting to start it.  

.  

On all of my projects I have started on the hardest jobs first, which has always been the body.  once that it all repaired and primed the its on to the mechanicals.  Starting the engine is about the last job.

 

Not much has been said about woodwork, check the door fit, opening and closing, use a screwdriver of see if all the hinge screws are tight in the wood, feel the door pillars and windshield posts,  check the 2 main outer wood sections in the floor, they are first to rot out.  If major woodwork replacement is needed you will need to be able to do that yourself, if you have to out source it I would walk away from the project.

 

Below is one of my projects, it took about 10 years , which helped spread the costs.  I still have it.  At the end I vowed never to take on such a project but have since completed 2 more that were just as far gone.  Its a disease, I hope you catch it!  

 

 

 

[39BuickEight]

If you have the space and patience, grab it cheap and have fun.  A car taken apart requires 4x the space as one put together.  Consider it a crash course in automotive history and learning. You will run into more issues and expenses than you can ever try to predict you will run into, and that can be fun too.  It will be frustrating.  You will run into seemingly simple tasks that are just not simple.  You will need tools you don’t have.  It’s all a process, but if you can buy the car cheap, all you have to lose is it being in the way.

 

 

 

[oldcarfudd]

Here is a consideration I've not yet seen in this discussion.  I seem to remember - possibly incorrectly - that there are parts of the world in which any car has to pass inspection.  It might be that some of these places will not pass a car, even an antique that sees limited use, if it emits visible smoke.  Matt said that Knight engines tend to smoke, even if they're in good condition.  It would be devastating to spend many hours and dollars restoring this car and not be permitted to drive it.  You might look into your local regulations before you decide to buy this car.

[Bhigdog]

2 minutes ago, oldcarfudd said:

Here is a consideration I've not yet seen in this discussion.  I seem to remember - possibly incorrectly - that there are parts of the world in which any car has to pass inspection.  It might be that some of these places will not pass a car, even an antique that sees limited use, if it emits visible smoke.  Matt said that Knight engines tend to smoke, even if they're in good condition.  It would be devastating to spend many hours and dollars restoring this car and not be permitted to drive it.  You might look into your local regulations before you decide to buy this car.

Come to think of it I've been told that Oz is REAL finicky about any bits of asbestos..........Bob

[Licespray]

10 minutes ago, Bhigdog said:

Come to think of it I've been told that Oz is REAL finicky about any bits of asbestos..........Bob

 

Excellent points in the above posts.

 

David - nice! I love the “April 1927...Many years later” captions

The bit about checking screws is a good one.

 

With asbestos that’s more to do with importing a car. Any bit in it and they won’t allow or it’ll be a very costly removal. Over the top in my opinion..

 

Im not sure about smoke, as plenty of cars I see are belching blue.. I believe “club registration” is a bit more lapse than full registration also.

 

 

About getting it running - I meant a full tear down, tanks cleaned and flushed etc when i said that one.

 

Cheers,

You guys have been really helpful.

Troy.

[DavidMc]

The asbestos issue is a PITA but its more about restrictions on importing cars into Australia.  I have never heard of anyone having to prove their car is asbestos free.

In NSW where I live we need to have all cars, including old ones, inspected annually and a car with lots of exhaust smoke would fail in the hands of a strict inspector but the WK and its potential new owner is in Qld where no such inspection is required.    However I have seen Knight engined cars on tour and don't recall them emitting excessive smoke.  I don't think that is a deal breaker for this car.

[DavidMc]

"David - nice! I love the “April 1927...Many years later” captions:

 

It was actually April 1976 , a bit hard to read.  It went on its first drive in late 1985

[viv w]

Agree with David Mc, an engine that has stood for even 10 years, should not be started without taking off the sump for a clean out and internal inspection. You would be amazed at how much dirt, bugs, wasps and hornets get into a motor that stands around. a lot of it goes up breather pipes or just blows in thru the vented oil filler cap.

 I think the car is well worthy of restoration, so check and see if the motor turns, but don't start it, then do the bodywork first and then the mechanical stuff. 

 Seen so many car projects fail, where guys do the easy stuff and get it running in a few months, then the hard graft starts. The body work is the most time consuming and lots of guys lose interest when it doesn't happen quickly.

 Talk to your wife too and see if she is willing to put up with you spending, probably a thousand hours and maybe more in your garage, because that car will take that number of hours and maybe more .

[SC38dls]

You have been given a full spectrum of advice. If it were me after reading all of this I would go with my gut. Questions I would ask myself - Money is not really available for a big expenditure so just what can I afford?  Is the seller a good friend and could this destroy that friendship?  Is he really reliable to help me or just saying that to sell the car?  Are my other friends that say they can help being honest or just saying they can and will help in both providing information and actual work/facilities to do work?  Most importantly will my wife support me in my quest and not resent the time & dollars I spend on this project? Do I have spare (non family time) to work on this? 

If any of these questions are answered in the negative, think twice before taking it on. If positive go for it and most of all have fun. 

A couple more things be honest with the seller and tell him why you are only offering x amount for the car. Be really honest in answering the questions. 

Again have fun, let us know what happens. 

Dave S 

[Licespray]

20 minutes ago, DavidMc said:

"David - nice! I love the “April 1927...Many years later” captions:

 

It was actually April 1976 , a bit hard to read.  It went on its first drive in late 1985

 

Brain fart, my bad! Dunno where he 1927 came from 🤦‍♂️

 

 

13 minutes ago, viv w said:

Agree with David Mc, an engine that has stood for even 10 years, should not be started without taking off the sump for a clean out and internal inspection. You would be amazed at how much dirt, bugs, wasps and hornets get into a motor that stands around. a lot of it goes up breather pipes or just blows in thru the vented oil filler cap.

 I think the car is well worthy of restoration, so check and see if the motor turns, but don't start it, then do the bodywork first and then the mechanical stuff. 

 Seen so many car projects fail, where guys do the easy stuff and get it running in a few months, then the hard graft starts. The body work is the most time consuming and lots of guys lose interest when it doesn't happen quickly.

 Talk to your wife too and see if she is willing to put up with you spending, probably a thousand hours and maybe more in your garage, because that car will take that number of hours and maybe more .

 

Wife works 5-9, I finish at 4, so that’s 4 hours 5 days a week.

Interesting - id have thought the engine to be the hardest part. I’m assuming the metal work is relatively simple for the outside/panels. Get out the dents, sand and paint.

 

The fellow also has a 1921 truck/ute. Unsure of make/model though. It may be another possibility but wouldn’t be as comfy I imagine. But then again I also don’t have ute.

Edited January 24, 2019 by Licespray (see edit history)

[Licespray]

2 minutes ago, SC38DLS said:

You have been given a full spectrum of advice. If it were me after reading all of this I would go with my gut. Questions I would ask myself - Money is not really available for a big expenditure so just what can I afford?  Is the seller a good friend and could this destroy that friendship?  Is he really reliable to help me or just saying that to sell the car?  Are my other friends that say they can help being honest or just saying they can and will help in both providing information and actual work/facilities to do work?  Most importantly will my wife support me in my quest and not resent the time & dollars I spend on this project? Do I have spare (non family time) to work on this? 

If any of these questions are answered in the negative, think twice before taking it on. If positive go for it and most of all have fun. 

A couple more things be honest with the seller and tell him why you are only offering x amount for the car. Be really honest in answering the questions. 

Again have fun, let us know what happens. 

Dave S 

 

 

I sure have been. The initial purchase is the biggest hurdle as that’s more just securing the project. After that it can be done over time with no risk of someone else beating me to it.

 

The seller is more of a fellow I go visit several times a year to talk to. He’s in his 80’s and isnt trying to advertise it for sale - his health isn’t getting better and he’s planning to have an auction at some point so I just asked if he’d be willing to part with the WK before then and he said he would. He hasn’t actually offered to get it running but I’m almost certain he would if asked - it’s his thing, he has to get motors going. Not a mechanic either - he was a farmer.

 

As for the other friends - they’re reliable to do what they offer.

 

Cheers, and thanks for giving me more to think about.

[60FlatTop]

Offer the owner $1,000 for it. He should be thrilled. He wouldn't have left 10 100's laying in the shed like he did that car.

 

Bring it home. DO NOT IMMEDIATELY DISASSEMBLE IT! Just clean it like it was going to a car show, lubricate everything, and get to know the car. Read all the literature you can find about it. I have bought a lot of stuff like that, monkeyed around with it a while, and eventually sold it to move on to another equal mess.

 

It is great for mental health as long as you maintain a moderate obsession with it. There is no rule that says you ever have to finish it. And, any part you restore, strive for it to be in the condition of a well maintained 10 year old car when you finish. That's a good goal for any old car. It has worked for me since 1984.

 

A different Bernie, not the Australian one.

[1912Staver]

2 hours ago, DavidMc said:

"2. Go for it, but only if the engine can be made to run beforehand.  "

 

Getting it running would not be important in my view because it may  damage the engine.  The cylinders may have rusted, rings seized, oil ways blocked etc.  I would strip the engine completely to clean it and assess condition.  Having got that far I would have do whatever is necessary to rebuild it before attempting to start it.  

.  

On all of my projects I have started on the hardest jobs first, which has always been the body.  once that it all repaired and primed the its on to the mechanicals.  Starting the engine is about the last job.

 

Not much has been said about woodwork, check the door fit, opening and closing, use a screwdriver of see if all the hinge screws are tight in the wood, feel the door pillars and windshield posts,  check the 2 main outer wood sections in the floor, they are first to rot out.  If major woodwork replacement is needed you will need to be able to do that yourself, if you have to out source it I would walk away from the project.

 

Below is one of my projects, it took about 10 years , which helped spread the costs.  I still have it.  At the end I vowed never to take on such a project but have since completed 2 more that were just as far gone.  Its a disease, I hope you catch it!  

 

 

 

 

I have said it before when you have showed these pictures in other threads but I will say it again in the context of this thread. Many of us would give up a body part to find your April 1976 starting point. A very rare and desirable 1920's Packard. A GREAT car, and compared to slightly later Packard's not completely off the top of the price charts.  Even if it was the wood or disk wheel version it is a grand car. With the Wire wheels another league altogether. Am I correct in thinking it is a second series 8 of approx. 1925 ?

 

Greg in Canada

Edited January 24, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Greg, 

Thanks for the compliment.  Its a 1922 1st Series 6 cyl Sport.  The Sport body is quite different to the other 5 and 7 passenger Packards of the era which make it look like an eight.  There were only a few hundred made.  The Sport should have disc wheels but virtually all of the early Packards that came to Australia had these 24" Rudge Whitworth wire wheels, as did this one.      

As an aside to all of those in fear of 2 wheel brakes, it has external contacting bands on rear wheels only and they are quite good.     Driven accordingly and with second gear down steep hills the car is fine to drive.    In serious rain it is another story.  

[auburnseeker]

I would think on this car,  the mechanicals (especially the engine) would be the thing I wanted to make sure was in good operating order first before you spent years getting the body right only tot find out the engine is junk, then more years have passed as have chances to get a good engine that you would have possibly paid more for if you knew yours was junk.  I als olike the idea if you go for it to get it home and clean it up.  It will give you time to inventory everything and see what's missing.  This will give you the maximum amount of time to find those parts before you really need them.   Often stuff seems available all the time until you find you need it, then the supply has dried up or that one that has been on ebay for years is gone.  Besides you will always find someone able to do body work,  but the number of guys familiar with those engines is slowly fading.  Last thing you want to do is get it all prettied up,  then find out there is no one left to fix the engine.  Even the friend may not be there (we sure hope not, but one never knows how fast things can deteriorate) when you finally get to the engine. 

[Buffalowed Bill]

Ah! the optimism of youth, there is nothing quite like it. I tried to put myself in your position, which was almost fifty years ago. I remembered my first restoration, people said I couldn't, wouldn't, or shouldn't do it, but I believed that I could, would, should, and I did it. You have time on your side. Your only real limitation is your willingness to undertake, and stick to a project like this one. If you were to ask me whether you can, and should undertake it my answer is, hell yes! Time is on your side, but only you can answer the question of whether you will see it through.

 

I have a friend who years ago told me, "if you have an itch you have to scratch it."  How bad is your itch?

[36 D2 Coupe]

Back in 1978 I took on a 1934 De Soto Airflow Brougham (only 4 known survivors of that one-year-only 2 door coach body style) that had been used extensively for a parts car, including losing its rear quarters. Got the engine rebuilt (sat outside with no head or pan for years) and the mechanicals finished before I had to sell it for unrelated reasons at pennies on the dollar. The buyer finished it and it is now gorgeous. Was I unhappy to sell it? Yes. Was I annoyed that I lost money on it?  No way! The pleasure I got from having it and working on it is worth far more than the money I spent. Add to that the satisfaction of seeing it completely restored and I'm still all smiles.

The 1936 Dodge RS Coupe we're working on has been a long slow process with many delays BUT it's a fun journey as others have said and limited funds makes you resourceful.

Do take advantage of any offer of help you may have from the owner and do it soon. His years of experience and knowledge of engines is hard to duplicate. Looking at your situation as I would have when I was your age, I'd probably jump in. (Caveat - I like oddball things!)

Whatever you do, best of luck and WELCLOME!

[1912Staver]

1 hour ago, DavidMc said:

Greg, 

Thanks for the compliment.  Its a 1922 1st Series 6 cyl Sport.  The Sport body is quite different to the other 5 and 7 passenger Packards of the era which make it look like an eight.  There were only a few hundred made.  The Sport should have disc wheels but virtually all of the early Packards that came to Australia had these 24" Rudge Whitworth wire wheels, as did this one.      

As an aside to all of those in fear of 2 wheel brakes, it has external contacting bands on rear wheels only and they are quite good.     Driven accordingly and with second gear down steep hills the car is fine to drive.    In serious rain it is another story.  

 

Aha, the elusive Sport model. Even in Beverly Rae Kimes monumental Packard book there is scant information. As you say only a few hundred built , no doubt survivors are very rare indeed. Congratulations for bringing one back from the brink !

 

Greg in Canada

Edited January 24, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Are we even sure the car in question has a sleeve valve engine?

[Licespray]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

Are we even sure the car in question has a sleeve valve engine?

 

That’s what the fellow says it has. I’ll assume it still does. He collects engines.

 

If anyone’s interested in a short video of the 16L 4cyl he made shoot me a PM also.

[Matt Harwood]

2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Are we even sure the car in question has a sleeve valve engine?

 

If it doesn't, it should. If it doesn't have it now, I would pass on the car--the engine is the only thing that makes it noteworthy. That's like restoring a 1957 Corvette but keeping the Stovebolt inline-6 that someone installed years ago.

[lump]

18 hours ago, kgreen said:

Airfare, lodging, ammo, new gun case that wouldn't freak out TSA, licence one bottle of 12 year old MaCallan for AFTER the day's hunt and the box of wild rice for $1.38!

I totally get it, Kgreen. Been there, done many similar trips...but mostly for fishing. I have often said that a beautiful walleye fillet on my plate from a trip up north cost as much as any gourmet meal on earth for a party of six, including Dom Perignon (or whatever other mega-expensive booze you can think of). 

[1912Staver]

4 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Are we even sure the car in question has a sleeve valve engine?

 

 

The engine photo at the beginning of the thread definitely looks like a Willys-Knight.

 

Greg

[JACK M]

On ‎1‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 10:18 AM, lump said:

As for "investment" value of the old car hobby...specifically about the cost of buying a project car and restoring it... I like to contrast that with buying a new boat, or even a sports car . A nice quality new ski boat these days can cost a fortune. But what will it be worth just a few years later? Ten or twenty years down the road? Not much, I assure you. And many people who love cool cars have bought new Camaros, Corvettes, Mustangs, etc, and parked them away in the expectation that they will be really valuable someday...only to lose their shirts years later. 

 

Its all about instant gratification.

One can walk into a dealership and have one of these items in the driveway the next day.

All you have to do is make payments.

Getting financing on a project or even a running collectable is doable but who would?

Ill tell you who would, those that need that 'instant gratification'.

I sold boats in my other life and saw it every day, The boat would get used quite a bit the first year, not as much the second season and even less the third.

At this point the loan is at about triple what it could be sold for and its out in the yard under a tree.

[JamesR]

Greetings to the OP. That's a cool old Willys-Knight. Everyone else has pretty much said what needs to be said, covering all the perspectives that a new old car guy should consider. I'd never want to discourage anyone from the worthwhile endeavor of fixing and preserving an interesting old car. Restoring a car of that condition and of that obscure make, however, should be viewed less as a "project" and more of as a "new way of life." Not approaching it from that perspective would almost guarantee a lack of success, in my humble opinion. A project is painting your house or re-sodding your front lawn. Something that takes weeks or months. This car will take many years, if you have a life outside of working on cars. Also consider that the purchase price of a car like that has little to do with it's cost, when all is said and done. But it could be done, IMO. Best wishes.

[Graham Man]

Did you ask him if he has any spare parts?  If he is anything like most of us he will have a spare engine for the car.  Most likely he has been collecting parts for the last 50? years.

 

I look at it like this, it is a $1000 adventure... that is a lot of fun for the money.  In the worst case scenario the engine is not savable, find a nice old 4 cylinder engine and transmission and install it in the car.  

 

Good Luck

Edited January 24, 2019 by Graham Man (see edit history)

[DavidMc]

Licespray, A useful reference if you go ahead  http://clubs.hemmings.com/wocv/

[Terry Wiegand]

I owned a 1928 Willys-Knight Standard Six 2-Door Coach for 32 years.  I bought the car after I got out of the Navy in late 1969.  The car was completely original and I gave $1,000.00 for it and drove it home.  The Sleeve-Valve engine had never had a wrench on it and at a slow idle one could barely hear it run.  The car that I had was the smallest W-K that was made and in my opinion it was one of the prettiest styled bodies that they ever made - excepting the Great Six Plaidside Roadster.  I will have to respectfully disagree about what has been said on here about the engine.  They were very well engineered and the car that I owned did not smoke because the oil rectifier worked like it was designed to.  I think one of their slogans was "No Willys-Knight engine has ever worn out".  I had a lot of fun with that car over the years.  I left the church after our wedding in that car and brought my first daughter home from the hospital after she was born in it.  I sold the car to a fellow in Ohio who did a complete body off the frame restoration on it.  The only thing that was done to the engine was to pull the oil pan and check things out.  Things were as clean as could be and they buttoned it back up and left the engine alone.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it.  The only thing that I ever did to the car was put a new set of tires on it.  I sold the car for $12,500.00 and that puts me way ahead in the old car game.  Trust me when I tell you that that is the ONLY time that will ever happen to me again in this lifetime.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[dibarlaw]

Terry:

 You have told me the events surrounding your WK before. You were a lucky man in finding that car. From what you said it was a well cared for and maintained car. A huge difference from the WK in question.  I did spend quite a bit of time discussing with the owner the Maroon car I posted the photos of from the Old Car Festival. His engine overhaul/rebuild cost was not because of wear of use but because of abuse and neglect.  The WK touring in question has been mostly neglected and appears to have engine components scavenged. Indicating that there may have been engine problems that side lined the car originally. WE both are feeling the monetary pains of rebuilding our much more conventional OHV Buick engines. Your 1916 and my 1925. We still needed to find specialists to  handle those engines. Whatever the final costs for us are the Knight engine will possibly be double to resurrect.

Edited January 25, 2019 by dibarlaw (see edit history)

[Lahti35]

Personally, I'd skip that one... That engine is going to be a tough one to redo unless its in great shape internally.

 

If you like to tinker and restore maybe start with one that you can get parts for. Case in point... I had a non running '24 reo and scoured the bushes for parts but never came up with much of what I needed.

Currently I have a "good running only needs a little work" Model T in the garage I'm rebuilding the engine and other stuff on... its so nice to open a catalog and have parts show up on the doorstep.

 

I got over the "hunt" for rare parts thrill along time ago. While I do like to tinker and rebuild I like to be able to get the parts I need and finish so I can drive around.

 

Best wishes for whatever path you choose.

 

 

Edited January 25, 2019 by Lahti35 (see edit history)

[JACK M]

This looks to be the deal of the day.

 

https://portland.craigslist.org/wsc/ctd/d/college-place-1928-willys/6801427183.html

[Licespray]

Nice car, but wrong country

[JACK M]

13 hours ago, Licespray said:

Nice car, but wrong country

Oh, that's right.

I guess that could be changed though.