1922 engine progress

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark,

Is Larry DiBarry going to come out and help with the initial start-up?  You gotta be getting on the jazz at this point!

 

Terry 

[Morgan Wright]

I love how you used the original radiator hose clamps. This car is going to be awesome.

[Mark Kikta]

Terry,

I am getting very jazzed!

 

We were hoping the Larry could come and impart some of his expertise.

I found some gas leaks I could not fix on the botttom of the Carb so Ill remove it to check it out.

 

I want to wait for a nice warm day.  Maybe things will change soon and losen up a bit.

 

I cant decide if I should use antifreeze or the waterless stuff. I need to make that decision soon.

 

Ill wait and talk with Larry about thus after I get all these little issues taken care of first.

[Mark Kikta]

Morgan,

 

I had a box of NOS radiator clamps that I used on my 39 Chevy and still had a few left to use here.

Thanks for the compliment.

[Mark Kikta]

I think its the large nut just forward of that and at the juncture of the line from the vacuum tank.

 

Also seems like I cant titall close the fuel valve under the vacuum tank so I need to fix that too

[Mark Kikta]

Thanks Ben

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

   You are really getting close.  Your engine looks great and I appreciate the updates.   I am going to try to give you some thoughts on waterless coolant or not since I am running Evans waterless in my 1925 Buick, now with around 600 miles on it.  I also had waterless coolant that was factory installed in my 2002 Porsche 911.   I bought this on Amazon so it was delivered to the house.  You need at least 3 gallons, but the deal is buy 4 gal for $168 & free shipping.  You will need a little for ocassional topping up.  I keep the empty jugs in case I need to drain the radiator to service something.   Filter it thru a coffee fiter and pour it back in.   Same on the Porsche when the water pump went out at 45,000 miles.     

Now is really the time to use waterless since the system is dry.  Just pour it in.  If you wanted to make the switch later, you still can, so there is no wrong answer for what to start out on.  If you lost it all on the road and had to use water, you can boil it off later and reuse what is still good.  

One advantage that I see is that one day I drove my car 100 miles.   For an extended time, I was running just over 45 mph.  This is basically tops for the car.  I have an electronic temperature pick up on the head (which I also suggest as they are only $50 and you can flip it under the dash).  Normally on short trips I am reading 200F.  For a long stretch at speed, my reading on the head was steady at 218 degrees F.  It will rise briefly when you come to a stop.  Would I be boiling over with 50/50 mix - possibly or darn close.  I would at some point notice corrosion near the motometer over time, or down where the overflow pipe is.  You know the metal under the radiator and at the base of the shell that has all the rust on it.  I don't worry about any rust forming on my nickel plated shell or the metal between the radiator and the shell.  Ideally a thermostat would open at 165F or 190F and my car would run around 200F, but this is a non pressurized system.  My temp pick up alarm is set for 250F.   No alarm on the motometer.  At less than 250F I may get a little more heightened awareness, but I am not concerned.  

Fact: A coolant mixture of 50% water and 50% ethylene glycol has a boiling point of 223 degrees. A system with a 15 psi cap will add 45 degrees for a final boiling point of 268 degrees. The real purpose of pressurizing is to give drivers a higher operating zone in case of extreme conditions.

I don't know how normal this 218F operating temperature is.  I can still retard my spark and hand crank the car.  Advancing the timing furthur will make the engine run cooler by some amount.  If my honeycomb radiator (which looks clean in and out) is marginal, I have a fix that allows me to keep using it.  Not interested in spending $3,000 to recore it with another honeycomb.  This may all be completely normal anyway in Texas. 

I am not sure how well the thermometer that sits on the top of the radiator really works.  I can't see it at night.   The Evans won't boil so I do not know how well it would pick up a real hot engine.  The thermometer seems to be working with the Evans, but the bulb is up in the vapor space and not in contact with the liquid.  Maybe I should solder a little wire on it so it actually touches the fluid?  At 218 the motometer showed an elevated temperature from normal, but not up in the danger circle that I recall.  Not a lot of data on this as few have a temperature indicator.      

I do fill my radiator maybe 1/4" above the tubes.  If I ever see dry tubes I add fluid.  I leave space for thermal expansion and I don't want to push any out the overflow. 

 

Hugh

 

 

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Larry Schramm]

From my experience, I have been using and recommend using regular antifreeze. 

 

A couple of reasons why.  First is that the cars were designed and ran on water only and worked fine for years. "Antifreeze" at the time consisted of alcohol.  As long as the block is clean and the radiator is in good condition you should not have a problem. 

 

I have only used antifreeze in my '15 truck and other vehicles and it has never overheated since I installed a new radiator 6 or 7 years ago. There is a large discussion here on the forum on which type of antifreeze to use on the old cars.  The old green Zerex, or the more modern antifreezes.  I use the regular Prestone yellow ethelyne glycol in my old vehicles.  So far, I have not had any problems nor would I expect to see any.   IMO and experience.

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark,

I run the Zerex 'Original Formula' antifreeze in my Buicks.  Antifreeze will result in a slightly lower operating temperature, it has anti-foamant properties, it acts as a water pump lubricant, and has anti-corrosion inhibitors.  The fact that these old engines utilize a non-pressurized cooling system probably has some considerations also.  This is my story and I'm gonna have to stick to it.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Mark Kikta]

Hugh and Larry,

 

Thank you for the information.

 

Hugh, can you tell me where you purchased your temp sensor?  I am interested in getting one.

[Larry Schramm]

10 minutes ago, Mark Kikta said:

Hugh and Larry,

 

Thank you for the information.

 

Hugh, can you tell me where you purchased your temp sensor?  I am interested in getting one.

 

I have a moto-meter on my truck that works.

[Jim Milewski]

Looks great Mark, a mirror imagine of my 23-6-48, did you put a filter in your top return (that's why the two radiator hoses) and just a suggestion - what ever you use in your radiator I would open the water pump pet cock to ensure no air is left in the pump thus causing a cavitation - cant wait for warm weather up here in upstate NY

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

    This is the temperature unit that I installed in my Buick, and the bracket that allows it to flip under the dash.  I bought it on Ebay.  I have it powered from the running light position on the light switch.  Also, on the Gano filter, I just pushed mine into the upper hose.  It did not  seem like it would move anywhere and so it is invisible and I have 2 less places for antifreeze to leak out.     Hugh  

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

I use water and 1 gallon of denatured alcohol, for some reason ethylene glycol antifreeze foams like crazy in my car, the alcohol mix doesn't foam at all.

 

Bottle of Mac's 1300 anti-rust / water pump lube is good.

[Larry Schramm]

2 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

I use water and 1 gallon of denatured alcohol, for some reason ethylene glycol antifreeze foams like crazy in my car, the alcohol mix doesn't foam at all.

 

Bottle of Mac's 1300 anti-rust / water pump lube is good.

 

Could be sucking air at the waterpump.  Using alcohol instead of ethylene glycol is fixing the symptom, not the problem.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Larry Schramm (see edit history)

[Morgan Wright]

OK I will fix the packing this year. I've been running the car on 100-year-old packing all this time.

 

Thanks

[c49er]

The smell of hot Evans coolant...dripping out from the overflow...in the smallest amount is most annoying...back to green.

 

[Mark Kikta]

Cool truck!

[Mark Kikta]

I finally received all of the new brass fittings I needed to replace the fuel lines and fittings going from the vacuum tank to the carburetor in order to stop the carb fuel leak(s).

 

First I repacked the fuel control valve on the bottom of my Marvel Carb with 3/32 graphite packing material and removed the packing material that came with the rebuild kit.

 

I also read numerous online articles about both the red and brass carburetor gaskets leaking fuel and that some race car drivers have switched to making carb gaskets out of Delrin. So I ordered Delrin rods from McMaster Carr to make the two sizes of gaskets I needed and to see how that worked out.  I made them on my small lathe and they fit just great.

 

I also replaced the brass fuel shutoff valve under the vacuum tank which was dripping. I used a brass shutoff from Restoration Supply which is a ball type so it's easier to turn and works perfectly and looks great too.  After putting it all back together and putting some fuel in the vacuum tank, I had NO LEAKS after 24 hours !

 So now I need to get to work putting some sort of fuel filter in the gas line from the fuel tank to the Carb!

[Hubert_25-25]

Mark, 

    That all looks great and I am glad to hear that you have no leaks.  I would suggest installing an AC glass bowl filter in that new line between the vacuum tank and the carburetor.  Those tubing fittings you are using makes it easy.  The vacuum tank can handle a little more crud than the carburetor can.  You are also using the high point drain on the can, so you can use the vacuum tank as your separator/settler for the big stuff and drain big stuff out the center drain on the can.  That was the way Buick set it up when they added the filter.      Hugh    

[Mark Kikta]

Hugh thanks,

 

I was thinking of using one of the glass bowls just like I have on my 39 Chevy.  I have a couple repo AC ones with the modern paper filters in them which would work well.  I assume one would just install it just 4-6 inches from the vacuum tank banjo fitting.  I think I saw where Morgan did that too. I would get some support from the vacuum tank fitting and not flop around too much when driving.

[Morgan Wright]

Carter fuels filters are more period correct and you can still get filter stones and rubber gaskets cheap at walmart. 

[DonMicheletti]

I have had Delrin seals in my '18 fo years and they have workd well. Plus you dont have to tighten the nuts as much as with copper.

 

On the metering adjustment. I think you are sealing on threaded portion and that is very dificult with any type o molded seal. Graphite paccking has worked well for me.

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark,

Is that Teflon tape on the bottom carburetor inlet fitting?  I like your setup for the shut off valve.  Here is a photo of the fitting that I am going to use on my vacuum tank.

 

Terry

[Mark Kikta]

Terry,

Yes I used one layer of teflon tape on all 1/8" screw in fittings.  I have the same shutoff valve you show here but it would not completely stop the fuel for flowing for me.  I just gave in and purchased an aftermarket replacement from Restoration Specialties.

[Mark Kikta]

This weekend I managed to build-up the filter I decided to use with brass fittings and then installed it right where the fuel line comes up from under the car.  I built a small support bracket to give it some vibration support also.  I finally got fuel into the Stewart Vacuum tank using another vacuum source and discovered that I have a pin hole in the fuel line between the filter and the Vacuum Tank.  I have ordered new fittings to spice in a new section of 5/16 brass line from the filter to the Banjo fitting on the vacuum tank.  I notice that I had to tape my banjo fitting using electrical tape tape to seal the vacuum leak around it so the fuel would get sucked in.  Then I could hear the vacuum tank suction cutting off and on.   I feel like I had the nut and two crush gaskets as tight as I would like to make them on the top of the vacuum tank, but the banjo fitting did not seal.  I believe the large screw/nut that holds the banjo fitting onto the vacuum tank may be stretched which is causing it not to seal.   I think I will try to make some Delrin washers a bit thicker and see how they seal up.

[Terry Wiegand]

Mark,

I think that crush washers were used on the vacuum tank inlet fittings.  They were on the tank on the '16.

 

Terry Wiegand

South Hutchinson, Kansas

[Mark Kikta]

Terry,

 

Yes there should be two crush washers surrounding the banjo fitting.  I had brand new ones on there but it still leaked like cheesecloth. I'm going to try some Delrin.

 

Mark

[Mark Shaw]

Terry & Mark,

    Just a couple words to the wise on fuel fittings... 

• Use only flare fittings on fuel lines.  Compression fittings will eventually leak and/or break due to vibration.
• Use pipe dope sealant rather than Teflon tape.  Teflon tape shreds in the threads and will likely clog carb. jets.

[raydurr]

Mark is right. I don't see anything that can dampen or absorb vibration. The engine is going to be vibrating and moving around a lot in the mounts. Movement must be allowed. The work quality looks great but after hours of use thigs can change. Im almost certain that dead copper washers will be required on the banjo fitting to work over time.

[Morgan Wright]

Copper crush washers need to be annealed each time you use them. Heat the washer to cherry red and let it cool slowly to make it soft.

 

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=how+to+anneal+copper+washer&docid=608049519242314727&mid=F1BF58A1CC573EC9F23EF1BF58A1CC573EC9F23E&view=detail&FORM=VIRE

[Mark Kikta]

I thought about the vibration and movement thing.  Maybe I'll move the filter up close to the vacuum tank and see how that works?

[Mark Shaw]

18 hours ago, Morgan Wright said:

Heat the washer to cherry red and let it cool slowly to make it soft.

Wrong!  That's how to anneal steel.  

This is how to anneal copper:  

 

[Mark Kikta]

I used the copper crush washers that are not solid copper.  These came with the vacuum tank rebuild kit and you don't need to anneal these.   I made some Delrin gaskets today and I want to try them next.

[DonMicheletti]

Morgan is right and Mark is wrong.

I was taught by an old sleam locomotive pipe fitter that the correct way to anneal copper is to heat it to red and quench it.

 

Heating steel to red will not necessarily anneal it if it isnt cooled correctly - slowly

[Bloo]

I am going to have to dissent here. As far as I know, copper does not care if you quench it or not, it still gets soft if you heat it to a dull red. Steel is much more picky.

 

As for Delrin, I wouldn't use it on a fuel system. In another group I participate in, I learned that Tektronix used to make various parts out of it many decades ago when it wasn't a common material. That ended when one of the engineers discovered it burns with a pretty blue flame, emitting noxious gases as it does. A minor underhood fire could open the fuel lines. I think I will stick with copper. For what its worth, if copper is not soft enough, there is always aluminum.

Edited May 12, 2020 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Mark Kikta]

Well I finally finished with my fuel line.  All fittings are flare fittings now.  I placed a vacuum onto the vacuum line and fuel filled the filter bowl and  the vacuum tank.  Haven’t found any leaks yet.

[Mark Kikta]

So now I noticed that the threads on the accelerator linkage rod to the carburetor are worn and the fitting that connects the rod to carb is warn and slips on the rod.  
 

Does anyone know what size the threads are supposed to be.  Seems like they are 7/32 -32 ?

 

I may just put a nut on either side of the fitting if I can find the nuts.

 

anyone else have this issue?

[dibarlaw]

Mark yes I will check the thread of mine on Beulah as it has a jamb nut on either side but still loosens up.

 The pin that goes through the throttle bracket is also worn as is the bracket hole. One of those I never got around to it. I will make up a new block and bush the bracket hole. If the thread is the same I should be able to make a block for you as well.

Are we about ready for a road trip?

[Morgan Wright]

That looks like the brand of fuel filter I had a problem with. The filter element kept jamming against the glass bowl and cutting off the flow. I switched to an antique Carter filter and it works fine now.