Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Well today was a big day in this household. Not only was I finally able to get the tappets out of the engine with a lot of coaxing using a wooden stick and hammer, I finally got the motor unfrozen. I loosened all connecting rod caps and was able to move the engine left and right pretty easy with this flywheel tool. After switching side about 5-6 times the engine finally turned 360 degrees. I put some super slick engine build oil on the end caps and bolted them back down. Now it turns 360 degrees with no problem. This is is an exiting day😁 8 Link to post Share on other sites
Brian_Heil 1,529 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Well done! Nothing snapped off just good hard work and soaking. What were your total days of soaking Vs. how many hours of actual wrenching? Do you believe the lifters were a factor? People will want to know when they read this 5 years from now 😀. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Thanks Brian, Soaked, soaked and soaked the cylinders for 2 1/2 months with a rotating combination of PB blaster, Marvel Mystery oil and ATF. Loosened one connecting rod and was able to move #1 piston about 1/2 inch using wooden dowl with relatively light impacts with a hammer. That was at about 2 months since I started soaking. I do believe the tappets could have contributed since some were very difficult to move/ remove. I soaked them with PB Blaster about as long as I soaked the pistons. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan Wright 969 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Congratulations. Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 Thanks Morgan Link to post Share on other sites
Larry Schramm 3,125 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 Mark, Your tappets look like the axle gears and bearings from my Model F that I am working on. Just got it apart this week. 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 21, 2019 Author Share Posted January 21, 2019 I guess 50-60 years of old grease/oil look the same wherever you look. Link to post Share on other sites
Larry Schramm 3,125 Posted January 21, 2019 Share Posted January 21, 2019 3 hours ago, Mark Kikta said: I guess 50-60 years of old grease/oil look the same wherever you look. Or older. Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan Wright 969 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 I just drained a quart of taffy out of my transmission. Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 What will you replace it with? Link to post Share on other sites
Spinneyhill 1,429 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) What is "taffy"? 1 hour ago, Morgan Wright said: I just drained a quart of taffy out of my transmission. Oh, toffee? Edited January 22, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan Wright 969 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) Salt water taffy. Not the delicious kind. I replaced it with kerosene, spun the shaft and shifted through all the gears for a few minutes, drained it, filled it again with kerosene, worked the gears again, a total of 4 times. Then filled it with motor oil and spun the gears, drained it. Now to install the transmission in the car and fill with hypoid gear oil for non-synchronized manual tranny. Just for fun I think I'll upload the taffy video on youtube for you: https://youtu.be/Q9KK6J8ljRo Edited January 25, 2019 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 22, 2019 Author Share Posted January 22, 2019 Great videos, thanks Morgan Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan Wright 969 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 This is taffy, it was just like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H23AY8Kdx00 1 Link to post Share on other sites
C Carl 1,791 Posted January 22, 2019 Share Posted January 22, 2019 (edited) The E.P. Sulphur based additives in hypoid GL-5 may be detrimental to the health of the bronze bushings in your transmission, AND DIFFERENTIAL. What I am not clear on, is whether this corrosion process can occur in the total absence of water, (condensation), in the oil, and how long before the damage sets in. Maybe frequent transmission and differential oil changes prevent this ? - Carl Edited January 24, 2019 by C Carl Capitalized DIFFERENTIAL (see edit history) 2 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 23, 2019 Author Share Posted January 23, 2019 When I try to turn the engine using the crank, it feels like its slipping off of some fitting or socket. I assume my engine looks something like this second photo inside that cover on front of the crankshaft. Anyone else had similar experience ? I assume I can just undo those two front bolts and support with a block of wood and a jack to get at it? 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Spinneyhill 1,429 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) On 1/23/2019 at 9:45 AM, C Carl said: What I am not clear on, is whether this corrosion process can occur in the total absence of water, (condensation), in the oil, and how long before the damage sets in. Maybe frequent transmission and differential oil changes prevent this ? I think it is a chemical attack rather than a corrosion attack. I imagine it is like oxidation (=corrosion) but by sulphur-containing chemicals. After all, Oxygen is in row 16 (atomic weight 16) and Sulphur (atomic weight 32) is also in row 16 immediately below Oxygen. They behave similarly in many ways, as both are 2- charges. Maybe it is better to NOT change the oil coz the sulphur EP additives will be gradually used up doing their job! But then not changing the oil means you don't have that EP protection. The best idea is to use an oil whose EP additives have a Copper Strip Corrosion Test result of 1a (or 1b at a pinch). Edited January 24, 2019 by Spinneyhill (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Spinneyhill 1,429 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Mark Kikta said: it feels like its slipping off of some fitting or socket. Maybe it is. With that spring loaded Doofa on the shaft, I imagine you have to push that in with the crank handle to engage the crank drive. Link to post Share on other sites
DonMicheletti 674 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 The nut on the front of the crank has the 3 ears. They may have become deformed like the one on my parts engine. Also the pin on the shaft engaging it may be deformed too. I was able to repair mine by using a hydraulic press to get the "hook" back into place. 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 I push in as hard as I can but it is slowly slipping as I try to turn. Looks like that nut can be taken off easily enough also so I can see what the issue really is. Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Wiegand 1,866 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Mark, If I was a betting person, I would put money on the fact that the crank nut has stripped threads. The end of the crankshaft is threaded to accept this nut. If your crank handle turns 'slowly' as you say, then I think you have found the problem. A good tool and die shop can make the nut for you, but, the crankshaft will be another issue after it is removed from the crankcase. If my assessment is correct, I am sorry to be the bearer of bad news. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to post Share on other sites
DonMicheletti 674 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Removing the nut shoul be easy - getting to it is another story. Since it is always in an oil environment, there should be no rusting issues. Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Well if the crankshaft has an issue with that nut, I’ll have the only 1922 without a crank😟 I guess Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan Wright 969 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 On 1/22/2019 at 3:45 PM, C Carl said: The E.P. Sulphur based additives in hypoid GL-5 may be detrimental to the health of the bronze bushings in your transmission, and differential. What I am not clear on, is whether this corrosion process can occur in the total absence of water, (condensation), in the oil, and how long before the damage sets in. Maybe frequent transmission and differential oil changes prevent this ? - Carl OK, I'll 86 the hypoid. I'll use it in the rear end. Link to post Share on other sites
C Carl 1,791 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 (edited) Hi Morgan. Hypoid gear oil is overkill for these ancient rear ends. Hypoid gears had not yet been invented (Gleason, perhaps about 1925). Hypoid is a hybrid between SKEW spiral bevel gears (skew because pinion center line is offset from crown center line), and worm gears. It is the SLIDING component of the gear load (spiral bevel gears have no sliding loads), which requires E.P. I am curious about the corrosive function of the Sulphur based E.P. additives. Typical erosion I have seen on bronze worm drives in Stutz appear to my inexperienced eyes as having lived in an acidic environment. The acid acting as an electrolyte, then must have come from a reaction including water, and the Sulphur compounds. 18 hours ago, Spinneyhill said: I think it is a chemical attack rather than a corrosion attack. I imagine it is like oxidation (=corrosion) but by sulphur-containing chemicals. After all, Oxygen is in row 16 (atomic weight 16) and Sulphur (atomic weight 32) is also in row 16 immediately below Oxygen. They behave similarly in many ways, as both are 2- charges. Maybe it is better to NOT change the oil coz the sulphur EP additives will be gradually used up doing their job! But then not changing the oil means you don't have that EP protection. The best idea is to use an oil whose EP additives have a Copper Strip Corrosion Test result of 1a (or 1b at a pinch). But bronze is highly resistant to oxidation. I do think the corrosion requires an electrolyte. However, just because I THINK something, doesn't mean that it is right 🤔. Again, if we assume depletion of E.P. additives takes place, it will not be of any consequence to any spiral bevel gearset. It is a very good idea to use an extra heavy single viscosity gear oil in the rear end. Very little, to no leaking whatsoever. If you are not regularly driving you old car in below freezing temperatures, the extra load is inconsequential. I have edited my previous response to capitalise "AND DIFFERENTIAL", thank you. - Carl Edited January 24, 2019 by C Carl (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Hubert_25-25 1,626 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Mark, If your starting nut is bad, they did span a long time so a spare should not be that difficult to find D-E-H-K-21-24 6 cyl, 25-26 Master, 27 120-128" Hugh Link to post Share on other sites
Spinneyhill 1,429 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 19 minutes ago, C Carl said: I do think the corrosion requires an electrolyte. However, just because I THINK something, doesn't mean that it is right Yep, you are right. It does not require an electrolyte. There are two types of sulphur used in EP additives, active and inactive. Active sulphur reacts chemically with copper in the presence of heat to form copper sulphide. In extreme pressure situations, copper disulphide can be formed. Both copper sulphide and copper disulphide are very hard crystalline forms and can abrade soft machine surfaces. "Sulfur in its active state readily reacts with metal surfaces to form a ductile metal soap that is sacrificial and allows opposing surfaces to contact one another with minimal damage. Active sulfur is chemically aggressive and with yellow metals being softer than steel, they can begin to pit and form spalls due to this chemical attack." Like most chemical reactions, it is faster with increasing temperature - the rate doubles for every 10 oC increase in temperature. Inactive sulphur is used in some EP additives. It is "less likely to bond to surfaces and react chemically." Hence, pay attention to the Copper Strip Corrosion Test ASTM D130. You want a 1a result. Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 24, 2019 Author Share Posted January 24, 2019 Sometimes when to try to crank, push in as hard as you can and the crank will spin very slowly as you push and then slips off of something and towards you no matter how hard you push. Sometimes you can fiddle with it and the crank will catch. It must be that nut. Link to post Share on other sites
C Carl 1,791 Posted January 24, 2019 Share Posted January 24, 2019 Thanks, Spinney'. That just goes to show the fallacy of just THINKING one is right. I'm sure there must be a modern heavy synthetic gear oil which is kind to yellow metal. I have to go to O' Reilly's right now anyway. I will report back. - CC Link to post Share on other sites
DonMicheletti 674 Posted January 25, 2019 Share Posted January 25, 2019 On the cranking. It sounds as if everythin is OK if the crank goes in as you start to crank. However if it is forced back out as you continue, that says that those nut "ears are damaged. Link to post Share on other sites
Morgan Wright 969 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I installed my transmission this morning and adjusted the clutch. Good to go. Used 90 weight GL1 gear lube and made a video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q9KK6J8ljRo&feature=youtu.be 1 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted January 26, 2019 Author Share Posted January 26, 2019 Great video Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 After I got home from my business trip to Sarasota, fl. I took my stuck lifters out of the paint can that I had them soaking in. So far I have soaked them in PB blaster for about two weeks and now acetone and atf in a sealed paint can for two weeks. This time I was able to easily punch the inner roller piece out using a socket and hammer while holding it in my hand. What a relief. They are all now cleaned up, working and covered with oil. I’m convinced that this engine was frozen up at least partially due to these frozen lifters, I’m so happy that nothing was broken. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 Next I dived into the crank receptacle to see why the crank has always just sliped off when I try to crank the engine or just turn slow and do nothing. After jacking the front of the engine a bit, I removed the timing gear cover. To my surprise the nut on the end of the crankshaft looked Ok. When I looked inside the cover, I could see that the pin used to engage the crankshaft nut had been bent off and broken off inside the cover. It appears as someone must have put some serious pressure on the crank trying to unfreeze this engine before I got it. 3 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted February 2, 2019 Author Share Posted February 2, 2019 Here you can see the pin bent over and broken Link to post Share on other sites
Hubert_25-25 1,626 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 (edited) Mark, I would seriously consider pulling all the pistons out, even if you do not plan to replace the rings, and then you can clean out the ring grooves. Bearings may still be good, and skipping a babbit job saves a ton of money if they still measure good. I think this car has plain sat too long. When I pulled out my pistons, 2 cylinders had compression rings in place of the oil control rings. I was surprised not to see a lot of wear, but yikes. The person also did not put the lifter on the aligning bolt and that messed up one of the cam lobes and one of the rollers on the lifter. Hugh Edited February 3, 2019 by Hubert_25-25 (see edit history) Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 Thanks Hugh, I was hoping that all my soaking might have freed up those rings a bit. Link to post Share on other sites
DonMicheletti 674 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 You can get the "crank rod" out by knocking the front pin out. That shaft will then slide out so you can replace the sheared off pin. That pin on my parts engine is bent and will be re-placed. On my '18 all 4 rings are "compression" - no oil control ring. I dont know if yours is the same. My parts book says that they were all the same. I go along with Hubert. Pull the pistons. You have already done most of the work. And at this point piston removal and replacement is easy .Chances are really good that if you dont replace the rings, you'll have an oil burner / smoker / plug fouler. The fact that the engine was stuck tells me that the rings are probably stuck too. You'd be really pissed if you reassemble the engine only to find you have oil use issues. Strangely, on my parts engine pistons, the bottom ring grove has slots at the bottom of the grove even though is is a plain ring. You can probably get an oil control ring that could go in the slot. My "driver" '18 has modern pistons and I havnt fouled a plug since i rebored it about 50 years ago. 4 Link to post Share on other sites
Mark Kikta 673 Posted February 3, 2019 Author Share Posted February 3, 2019 You and Hugh are probably correct. Maybe I should just keep going while I have most of the work done. You can’t leave the transmission in the car correct? You need to pull the engine and trans as one unit? Link to post Share on other sites
Terry Wiegand 1,866 Posted February 3, 2019 Share Posted February 3, 2019 Mark, It will probably be easier to drop the transmission and then pull the engine. That is what I am doing. Now, when things go back together, it might be easier to slip things back in all together. I am fixing to find the answer to that later this Summer. Terry Wiegand South Hutchinson, Kansas Link to post Share on other sites
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