businesscar1917 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 In todays world a person can have "a one of a kind original" built from many different parts. Original to me is how the vehicle came off the assembly line from the factory. In the teens people were cutting up touring bodies to make trucks and today its called original. Some factory's built a running frame with cowl you built the rest I would consider this as original if the rest of the vehicle was built in that time. Maybe what it comes down to is that we all have "ORIGINAL VEHICLES" that meets our needs. Original could be to special. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H.Boland Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) From a judging standpoint,I would think that original would be just the way the unit left the factory floor. That being said,in some circles "field modifications" are allowed. I once had a '31 Chevy fire engine that faithfully served a small community until 1977. Driving an open cab truck flat out to a rural chimney fire in January was a less than pleasant experience, especially with no windshield. At some point early in it's service life,a windshield from a '28 Chevy truck was installed.This required the placement of the spotlight, originally mounted on the right side of the dash, to a bracket behind the fuel tank. It all looked quite proper,and it won numerous trophies at some rather prestigious meets. Cut up touring bodies were a common way to get new and extended life out of an obsolete vehicle, but I don't think that Duesenburg made into a flatbed hay hauler would be well received at Pebble Beach. When I restored my '21 Chevy, I could have restored it back to it's touring configuration,but the pickup conversion,done about 1925,was just too cute. Judging isn't everything. Edited January 16, 2019 by J.H.Boland (see edit history) 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinmass Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 What does it mean TODAY? Absolutely nothing! 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe_padavano Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, edinmass said: What does it mean TODAY? Absolutely nothing! Right up there with "numbers matching"... 🙄 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ragtop4two Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 It could mean different things to many different people. I once knew a person who had a"mint" condition camaro. An argument started when I said new camaros did not come with unicorns painted on them like yours, therefore I wouldn't consider it"mint" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JV Puleo Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Another word in the automobile lexicon, like "classic" that has absolutely no meaning at all. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 I would call a vehicle "original", if it's an unrestored, as it left the factory, vehicle. If it has been restored, I would call it "restored to original condition". As the saying goes "it's only original once". It can be the finest, most expensive restoration, but it's not original it's restored! 8 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
46 woodie Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 JV, so right you are. It drives me bonkers to hear people say that they own a "classic" '57 Chevrolet or a "classic" Model A Ford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter J.Heizmann Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, 46 woodie said: JV, so right you are. It drives me bonkers to hear people say that they own a "classic" '57 Chevrolet or a "classic" Model A Ford. Then do yourself a favor and do not watch the Barrett-Jackson Scottsdale auction this week on the Motor Trend channel. Every car on the auction block is either original or Classic. Peter J. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bhigdog Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Most every car on every show field is a phony and that includes my grand national and national award winning "restorations"......bob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Sometimes, it means whatever was on the car when the present owner bought it, .... because they believe what the seller said, until you can show them concrete proof otherwise. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Real Steel Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Have you heard the latest news?! They're going to take the Declaration Of Independence and restore it. Yep, turns out that some of the ink has faded and chipped, and the paper is mashed at the corners. The plan is to strip the ink off, bleach the paper, and then press it flat. The writing will be reapplied with carefully matching ink and rewritten in the same way it was done 'originally'. Truly, it will be 'restored to like new'. Sound absurd? Of course. Yet this is a completely accepted practice by vintage car owners. Antiques Roadshow experts say "keep it original" (yes, they say the word 'Original'). American Pickers also say the same thing. MANY people on this forum, and around this county and world, now say 'keep it original'. Peoples' definition of 'ORIGINAL' can vary greatly, but it would be ridiculous to get into an argument of semantics. In your hearts, you already know what an 'original' car is. At least for most of us anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 The OP asked almost what I was thinking. Another question compares an assembled car to a built car. I assume Ford (after the Rouge Plant) was the first to build a car. All the rest and all cars today are assembled?? Does anybody build a car with their own components. What is original. When I worked for Penner Dodge in Winnipeg (1963) we had a new Dodge come off the train, on to a transport and off on our lot. There were picture taken and I sure wish I had them today. V8 with two different makes of spark plugs in three heat ranges. If that specific car were restored today it would have to have the same combination of plugs to be "restored to original" even though that may have been the only one of it kind. How do any of us know (for sure, without any reasonable doubt) what was original eighty, ninety or one hundred years ago for any specific car, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick8086 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) It has not be repainted.. Edited January 17, 2019 by nick8086 (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayne sheldon Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 PFitz says "Sometimes, it means whatever was on the car when the present owner bought it, .... because they believe what the seller said, until you can show them concrete proof otherwise. And many times, even faced with concrete proof, several experts in full agreement, and obvious HUGE flaws in their logic? They still won't believe you. Yep. Been there, done that. Too many times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
businesscar1917 Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 I do believe you're all correct I own a 1917 Dodge Brothers Business Car and have been told Dodge didn't make business cars for the public until late 1917 or its a military vehicle Dodge started production for the Army in April 1917 with running frames and cowls and a few business cars used as ambulances in WW1. The original color is black not brownish green the Army color. Dodges first business cars had touring car frames (this I have) with business car bodies on the frames. My frame number 159389 shows production date June 2 1917 the cab number 38843 early cab number, I also know the history to about 1920 no changes were ever made to this vehicle. So this vehicle will be "restored close to original condition as possible" since with no records I don't know what original condition is. This business car worked on a dairy farm in southern Oregon delivering milk the owner put a cut out valve before the muffler for more power climbing the mountains, people tell me to leave it off to be original but then other people say tell the history of it leave the cut out valve on. The title will change when I transfer it from Oregon to South Carolina now I'll have a restored title not close to original WOW. I'll be 70 this year to bad I couldn't get restored to original condition. Thanks for the comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Too many people confuse "Original" with "Authentic." Original means it has never been altered. You cannot restore a car (or anything else for that matter) to "original." Also, the phrase, "original as it left the factory" is being quite loose with what that terminology. Very few cars fall into that category, especially prewar cars (pre WWII). Cars did not leave the factory covered with surface rust, faded paint, etc. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
West Peterson Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 10 hours ago, Real Steel said: Have you heard the latest news?! They're going to take the Declaration Of Independence and restore it. Is this FaceBook news? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R Walling Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 17 minutes ago, West Peterson said: Is this FaceBook news? No, I heard it on FOX network so it must be true. 🙄 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PFitz Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 I prefer "all original" to mean as it left the dealership on day one, not just the factory. By the late 20's early 30's, there are many dealership installed extras that might have been added at the first owner's request before taking delivery of a new car. Spare tire covers, accessory trunks, lap robes, outside rearview mirrors, trim items, twin horns, etc.. Paul 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfle Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) Great topic and conversation. Many do get confused with the term of original, meaning it is as it was as it left the dealer versus restoring a car to original appearance versus a resto mod or hot rod. I wish there was a 'standard' definition of this in the community. The other way I look at it is that the car is the 'original' paint, body, interior, and accessories as it left the dealer at original purchase. Also you need to take it to the next level such as there are many things on a car that are expected to be changed to drive such as tires, fluids, belts, etc for usual maintenance. From a public historic agency perspective here is a good example for reference. I recently acquired a 1925 Cole Brouette with a body by Willoughby. It was the personal chauffer driven car for Mrs. JJ Cole and she used it until the early 30's. It was then put in the basement of the Cole Factory building and the family maintained it and used it occasionally after that. The family owned the factory building until the 80's and kept it there and then moved it to the Cole mansion after that. It left the Cole family in 2007 to private ownership. The national historic register added the Cole mansion and the 1925 Cole Brouette to the Register in 1997 and their historians reviewed the house and the car and wrote up the history. The car is predominately original with interior, body, and paint original except for cosmetic updates to the paint over the years and then the park service notates that other things have been replaced for maintenance reasons. That is how they define originality. Now I am the next conserver of this car and my intent is to preserve it as original as possible and maintain it to keep it functioning and in the public eye. Edited January 17, 2019 by kfle (see edit history) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28 Chrysler Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Many Ford cars left the factory in pieces and packed in railroad cars. Many manufacturers the spare rims had no tires when leaving the factory. Original might be when it was first put into service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JACK M Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Ever since the operation I am not original any more. I came with a cord. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Hill Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 There are several definitions that I use in the antique car hobby: 1) Original - unrestored, unaltered, "unrefreshed" etc. (except for general maintnenace items) as it left the factory - paint, interior, engine bay, etc. are just like it left factory 2) Refreshed - certain areas have been restored but the car is not a truly restored car - maybe fresh paint job and new upholstery but not a true restoration 3) Restored to original - full restoration (off frame, ground up) to way it left the factory 4) Modified - anything else Thats just my thoughts Bob 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kfle Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Bob Hill said: There are several definitions that I use in the antique car hobby: 1) Original - unrestored, unaltered, "unrefreshed" etc. (except for general maintnenace items) as it left the factory - paint, interior, engine bay, etc. are just like it left factory 2) Refreshed - certain areas have been restored but the car is not a truly restored car - maybe fresh paint job and new upholstery but not a true restoration 3) Restored to original - full restoration (off frame, ground up) to way it left the factory 4) Modified - anything else Thats just my thoughts Bob This is a good summary. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DB26 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 My interpretation. As it was the year it was new with no later replaced parts or paint. As it left the factory plus any aftermarket accessories added the year it was purchased. Maybe a few years of grace period added to allow for something added by the dealer such as a radio or heater. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gunsmoke Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Poster asked what "Original"means. For the linguists, start with what the dictionary says. "Original" can be used as an adjective or noun. As an adjective, it has 2 variations: 1. existing from the beginning such as "John is the original owner of the car". 2. created directly by an artist or person, such as "That is an original Ford". As a Noun, again 2 variations 1. Something used as a model for making copies such as "the 1980 Shay Model A Ford Roadster is based on the Original. 2. an eccentric person, such as "in the old car hobby, my buddy is an Original ( after he was born, they threw away the mold). So when we use the word in the hobby, we should understand what the word itself means and use it accordingly. So if someone says this is an "Original 1929 Ford, it should follow the definition of an adjective set out above, i.e. a car as created directly by Henry Ford and Co. Of course, in most cases, the further adjective "mostly" or "largely" etc should be used, as virtually no "100% original" 1929 Fords exist. It is common to see a 1929 Ford for sale with a description "for sale by family of Original Owner". So my 2 cents (more like a dime!) is to get in the habit of trying to properly reflect what you are selling or using to describe your car. Everyone will realize when someone says their "1929 Ford is mostly original" that the car is pretty much stock, may have been painted or had engine rebuilt. All the words in the hobby are subject to wide interpretation. What does "rebuilt" "refurbished" "restored" "upgraded" "classic" "modernized" etc really mean. No answer will cover all, if any bases. Just try to be honest is all I suggest. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 The definition of an "Original" car is simple, exactly as it was manufactured and sold. Which, for 99.9% of all cars meant that they ceased to be original at the first tire change or tuneup. For most of old car hobby history "original" meant used and ugly and destined for restoration or parts stripping. Only in recent times have truly original cars gained desirability and value so the term has been bastardized extensively as cynically mentioned above. I have been fortunate to own two "90% original" cars in recent years and can say their appeal is universal. While I love restored cars as much as anyone I much prefer an original one to drive and enjoy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H.Boland Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 On 1/17/2019 at 8:30 AM, businesscar1917 said: WOW. I'll be 70 this year to bad I couldn't get restored to original condition. Thanks for the comments. Who would change your diaper ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 18, 2019 Share Posted January 18, 2019 What a beautiful 90% original Packard. Is that an 11 series? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 19, 2019 Share Posted January 19, 2019 I observe and internalize a lot of experiences. I even got in trouble with my school teachers because they said I read too slowly. Huh, later in life I ran into the speed readers. "Original" is entertaining and best experienced in face to face conversation or visually on TV. The most abstract version is pronounced "ridgenil" starting the word with the eyes lowered and head slightly bowed. The O is dropped and the head rises with a slight nodding motion, as if to signal approval. That's the TV style and the the one used in anecdotal descriptions. Those are the unarguable types, sort of like Alex Trebek selling funeral insurance on the solarium TV, always nodding approval. Or-ig-in-al is the authoritative way, back up references available as in a judge with training. Even as the most credible source, one must always be aware of automotive hobby dogma. That is a trap that is very easy to fall into when one takes all this stuff too seriously. Hold this thought and watch for examples. "I" am capable of both and, at times, been referred to as dogmatically playful. Bernie 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejboyd5 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carbking Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 You folks are trying to make this simple answer too difficult. Today "original" means "how can I get the most money out of this item"? Doesn't matter if the item is a car, a house, or a tube of toothpaste. Forgive me for being a cynic. Reminds me of an incident from almost a different lifetime when I was much younger and impressionable (about 1970). Was at Hershey listening to a discussion on this topic by two older gray-bearded gentlemen. The final word was: "Well, as far as I am concerned, once the tires have to have air, its no longer original"! True story. Jon. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TexRiv_63 Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 On 1/18/2019 at 3:23 PM, Tinindian said: What a beautiful 90% original Packard. Is that an 11 series? Yes, 1934 model 1100, the "loss leader" cheapest Packard you could buy in 1934. Of course it wasn't cheap at all because it was loaded with features and quality like all big Packards. If you are interested I did a thread under restorations and projects a few years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Luddy Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 On 1/16/2019 at 5:50 PM, J.H.Boland said: From a judging standpoint,I would think that original would be just the way the unit left the factory floor. That being said,in some circles "field modifications" are allowed. I once had a '31 Chevy fire engine that faithfully served a small community until 1977. Driving an open cab truck flat out to a rural chimney fire in January was a less than pleasant experience, especially with no windshield. At some point early in it's service life,a windshield from a '28 Chevy truck was installed.This required the placement of the spotlight, originally mounted on the right side of the dash, to a bracket behind the fuel tank. It all looked quite proper,and it won numerous trophies at some rather prestigious meets. Cut up touring bodies were a common way to get new and extended life out of an obsolete vehicle, but I don't think that Duesenburg made into a flatbed hay hauler would be well received at Pebble Beach. When I restored my '21 Chevy, I could have restored it back to it's touring configuration,but the pickup conversion,done about 1925,was just too cute. Judging isn't everything. Wow, a Wardsville Fire truck!! That has to be one of the 1st ones in rural Ontario that wasn't horse drawn? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Dobbin Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 I think it's all in the eye of the writer. Ads are especially misleading. Like: 1932 Ford Roadster, restored to original, Gibbons body, Carson Top, Pete & Jake suspension, Corvette LS-3 engine, 6 speed tranny, A/C, candy apple paint, custom interior, $125,000 invested, trophy winner Firm @ $ 135,000. no tire kickers, serious inquires only. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J.H.Boland Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 1 hour ago, Ed Luddy said: Wow, a Wardsville Fire truck!! That has to be one of the 1st ones in rural Ontario that wasn't horse drawn? Actually no. Many small municipalities had motorized apparatus.I have an album of Bickle (Woodstock,Ont.) motor trucks and they date back into the teens. Some small towns had a trailer mounted pumper that was towed behind the chief's car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
60FlatTop Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 2 hours ago, carbking said: Forgive me for being a cynic. That's not an original statement. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John S. Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 The word "Original" has many meanings in the old car hobby, and almost never used correctly. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
39BuickEight Posted January 20, 2019 Share Posted January 20, 2019 To me the term original has to be preceded by a %. A purely unrestored car is 100% original to me. A restored car would be considered restored to (insert %) original condition. It’s all just semantics though and as long as judges, buyers, and sellers agree on a particular car in terms of what to call it, that’s what matters. If car is not being judged, bought, or sold, I couldn’t care less what someone calls it. It is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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