Advice / input on buying a late 20's - early 30's car

[Brooklyn Beer]

16 hours ago, cahartley said:

^ At that money you can fly out and look at it or pay someone to check it out for you.

That the engine was professionally rebuilt is worth the trip alone.......  

I wish I could but that can't happen. If there are any members in that area I would not mind paying for an inspection.  Even if I did go look at it, I really don't know what to look for.

[60FlatTop]

I looked at the Franklin for sale page and was surprised at the relatively low prices on the cars. From experience I know that typically the most I am going to get is what I pay for.

I have a couple of cars that I bought for very little money. I like them and have spent quite a bit on them. The other cars I bought at bargain prices belong to other people now.

 

I would suggest becoming a participating member of the club for a year or two before buying one. If nothing else, you would probably end up with a better car than doing it on your own.

Bernie

[John_Mereness]

Being a 1928 it could also have a steel frame and just poor hood alignment - you have to ask.  My opinion is it is a pretty solid car or it would be a pile of parts (nice cars look like this and bad cars do not).  

 

As to the low prices on franklin cars - relatively speaking the Franklin Club and owners have kept the prices low via most cars exchanging hands between club members and they are "air cooled" and not for everyone as they are somewhat alternatively engineered.  As to quality of cars, impressiveness, and .. - they are !   And, drive one over a set or railroad tracks and their full elliptical springs will dazzle you with their ride. 

[John_Mereness]

As to tapping vales to make sure everything is free  - the cars are overhead valve - you pop the fans shroud cover off, then you take off the rocker arm/valve covers and it is all sort of right in your face to look at (very common to see on a morning at Franklin Trek prior to a tour to see people with blower shroud top off while oiling their valves by hand).   You take a block of wood and a hammer and you give then a tap, and then you take the hand crank and spin the engine and make sure all the push rods spin in your finger tips, then you oil, and then you drive. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

As to tapping vales to make sure everything is free  - the cars are overhead valve - you pop the fans shroud cover off, then you take off the rocker arm/valve covers and it is all sort of right in your face to look at (very common to see on a morning at Franklin Trek prior to a tour to see people with blower shroud top off while oiling their valves by hand).   You take a block of wood and a hammer and you give then a tap, and then you take the hand crank and spin the engine and make sure all the push rods spin in your finger tips, then you oil, and then you drive. 

Interesting.  So I am guessing doing valve adjustment is equally as easy.  Is hand oiling the valves a weekly need?

[PFitz]

Only weekly if your putting over 500 miles a week on it. There's a simple factory recommended test to see if the valve/rocker arm felt pads need oiling. You just pinch them between thumb and index finger. If the felt turns wet around where your squeezing they are fine.  

 

And yes, because they are overhead valves they are easy to adjust. Feeler gauge, a 9/16 box wrench, and a screwdriver are all you need.

 

Franklin wooden frame sag (chassis sills in Franklin-speak) is not an issue, except cosmetically at the bottom corner of the hood panel/cowl gap - like you can see in pix of that 28. Otherwise the sag  doesn't effect it mechanically, or it's safety, or drivability.

 

 The tan (yellow?) 29 you linked to has some unique features such as the later Delco Lovejoy double action hydraulic shock absorbers that replaced the very complex 29 & 30 Wahl shocks in 1931. These are completely rebuildable by a specialist such as Apple Hydraulics on Long Island, and they work very well to increase the already smooth ride of a Franklin.  And it has, at least, the rear Spicer u-joint grease cover - which are usually missing.  

 

Plus, it has the cast iron Stromberg U-2. A last half of 29 replacement for the potmetal T-2 then potmetal U-2 used on earlier 29's that are so prone to age cracks and leaking. That cast iron U-2 is a excellent carb and when properly rebuild by someone very familiar with them (not just your typical carb shop rinse and gasket job) it performs very well !!!!  

 

As for a Franklin engine that's been sitting for many years, they are more forgiving of that than water cooled cars.  There are a few things that need to be checked, but not overly difficult - just time consuming. And the how-to is well covered in the Q&A section of the Club's website "Members Only" section. 

 

Then there's a few club members who work on Franklins full time, who can help advise you what and how to go through the car and get it running, if it's capable. I have over 60K digital pix of 40 years of working on Franklins that I use to help members answer thier Franklin questions. Many of them already appear in the Club Q&A, of which I was one of the contributors for many years.

 

Paul

Edited April 14, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

13 minutes ago, PFitz said:

 

 

Then there's a few club members who work on Franklins full time, who can help advise you what and how to go through the car and get it running, if it's capable. I have over 60K digital pix of 40 years of working on Franklins that I use to help members answer thier Franklin questions. Many of them already appear in the Club Q&A, of which I was one of the contributors for many years.

 

Paul

Thanks and that leads me to the all important question.  How can someone check if it is capable of being started after sitting? I think that can only be diagnosed by someone much more experienced then myself since I am just starting out.  Seems like a car with very much to offer but could become a nightmare for the inexperienced.  Then again it could be as simple as flushing the fuel system and cleaning the carb, rebuilding each wheel cylinder and the master, and away you go. I just don't know enough to even ask the seller the correct questions with a Franklin.  Oddly after doing a web search for brake cylinder and master cylinder rebuild parts they come up as being on Ebay.  Are there parts suppliers that specialize in Franklins ?

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Brooklyn Beer
new (see edit history)

[PFitz]

Like any antique auto, you should see if someone knowledgeable close by (club member ? ) check it if your not certain you can. Nothing overly tricky about Franklins,..... other than don't bother asking if the cooling system leaks coolant.  

 

And like any other make, some new parts are available, some aren't and have to be found, or fabricated.

 

The Club has reproduced many parts no longer available, which are listed, with pictures, on their website. The Club website also lists commercial suppliers and members who sell new parts, and/or, do parts rebuilding - like my listings on there.

 

Paul  

Edited April 14, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[theKiwi]

5 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

On the flip side I am sure it won't sagging any more after all this time. I would like hearing from someone who has done this repair by the factory offered method or any other method.

 

Kirk Arnold - you can find him on the Franklin Automobilie Enthusiasts Facebook page - has recently fitted up some cables with turnbuckles onto a badly sagged car.

 

I'm partway through a process to put some "upside down" leaf springs under the frame of my 1926 Series 11A car. I know of one other car that has had this done and it worked out very well, so I have got the dimensions of the springs he had made, and am having a spring shop here in Grand Rapids, Michigan make me a pair of springs - the basic idea is to put a leaf spring under the chassis rail from just behind the front spring, back to about the end of the gearbox - when both ends are pushed up and fastened to the frame rails (sill plates) the centre of the spring will be pushing up on the frame rail hopefully enough to get them back into shape.

 

As noted above, the most obvious problem of the sagging frame is that there is a gap at the bottom of the hood corners, but less obvious is the line of the cowl along the hood is "broken" - the sag shows up there, as well as on my car at least we are very very close to having the rear end of the engine air cover rubbing on the cowl.

 

If the spring process works I'll publish pictures and text of what I did so others might do the same also if interested - to me this makes more engineering sense than a cable under the car, pulled unbelievably tight, fastened to the frame rails by bolts drilled through wood that are pulling along the grain - there is so little mechanical advantage in the cable system that the cables must by unbelievably tight to have any effect I think. The springs idea seems simpler, and has been proven to work on one car so far - mine will be #2

 

Roger

[PFitz]

New sills can be made and not show sag....ever.

 

There is an old carpenter's method of dealing with load sag in wood by "crowning" it. It involves understanding that as a beam, wood will sag. The more load it has on it, the more it will sag. That amount of sag in Franklin chassis sills can be corrected for in new sills. I've done it.

 

The sag is almost all in one area - either side of the bell housing.  And studying many Ser 12 frames, the sag is typically 1/2 to 5/8 inch for the heavier Series 12 cars. A bit less for the earlier ones. 

 

Why Franklin tried to fix it by adding metal, which negates some of the woods ability to flex and absorb road shocks as it was originally designed to do, and does so well when not fighting steel reinforcements, and they did not use a centuries old technique of crowning to compensate for such a well known situation as wooden beam sag, is beyond me.

 

The first three pix are of a set of Series 12B sills I made back in about 1983.  They were built exactly to the factory drawings, with the exception that their center lines were compensated in the bell housing area to sag to be level under all the weight once the car was assembled. The last three pix are the hood gaps on both sides of the same car 18 years of use later. Notice how uniform the rear edge of the hood panels are to the nickeled cowl band.

 

Paul

Edited April 14, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[keiser31]

A friend of mine (Jack Morris) rebuilt the chassis on his 1928 Franklin with new wood....

Edited April 14, 2019 by keiser31 (see edit history)

[cahartley]

Brooklyn Beer, I just realized HOW new you are to cars.

Coming here and asking your questions is the best thing you could have done....... 👍

[Brooklyn Beer]

4 hours ago, cahartley said:

Brooklyn Beer, I just realized HOW new you are to cars.

Coming here and asking your questions is the best thing you could have done....... 👍

Oh not new to old cars, just new too Franklin's to the point until 4 months ago I never knew they existed.  skimming around the web and researching I found a bunch of other cars from the 20's I never knew of like the Gardner for example.  Was always a post war 40's and 60's guy .

[prewar40]

Well now that you know about Gardner you must want one.  Right?  Well in the near future one will be on the market an eight cyl, Imperial sedan, 1926.  It's been sitting 2 or 3 years so it has the fuel issues.
It is in Texas but still 300 miles from Springtown.  I will probably list it on the for sale page in about 10 days. You can PM if interested.  Picture from a 1926 auto show.  Warning these are rare.

Edited April 18, 2019 by prewar40 (see edit history)

[steven 123]

I have a running 1927 Chrysler model 50 in good shape,no rust that I am going to sell due to my health and age if interested...thanks

[Brooklyn Beer]

Still on my search.  Time is finally getting closer that I will be able to get a purchase in order.  Have had lots of time to research different cars and am leaning very much towards a 1930's Franklin though I do have much interest in the same year Buicks and Dodges.  I do have concerns about never having worked on a car with the differences of air cooled to a water cooled car and that Franklin parts are not as easy to come by.  Each model car though does come with a great club support base. I do already own a 1949 Buick and a 1946 Dodge so there is some level of knowledge there between those two.  When I went to a show a couple weeks ago I had the chance to sit in a couple model A's and found they just seemed a little small for me.  A 1929 Buick fit just right.  Not a Dodge in sight though to compare with.

 

So folks, please feel free to explain to me why I should buy a Dodge over a Buick over a Franklin over a Dodge over a Buick.

[PFitz]

For you in Texas, the obvious,....  Franklins don't over heat (and don't ever freeze), so you don't have any of the water cooling system problems.  Plus, there's a lot less weight on the front end as a result, so tires last longer. 

 

For their horse power range and size, Franklins are lighter than many of their competition. Often by as much as 1000 lbs or more. Less weight equals less wear on suspension and drive train parts and better gas mileage.

 

The squirrel cage cooling fan acts as a harmonic damper to balance the engine to run even smoother than many other 6 cylinder engines of that era. The full elliptic springs give a smoother ride.

 

As far as parts, they are well built so you rarely need any. The parts that do eventually wear on any car are parts on a 29 and later Franklin that are still being made and available at your local autoparts store - all the ball and tapered bearings and seal. All the Delco Remy ignition parts.  Clutch and brake lining materials are still available. Tire sizes are common and you have a choice of brands and sources. Rhode Island Wire Service makes duplicates of all the wiring harnesses. And as you know, the Club and members are duplicating other parts not available otherwise when doing a restoration.

 

Paul

Edited May 10, 2019 by PFitz (see edit history)

[Steve9]

I’ve owned a 35 &. 36 Dodge so my short answer will include 1) Dodge cars have no wood. 2) Chrysler cars of this era have superior engineering. I also love the fact that the cars of Chrysler Corp outsold those of Ford Motor Company in 1936.

Buick cars of this era are beautiful machines and I’ve seen more early Buick’s than Dodges, so availability may be a factor.

All in all, both cars I believe are solid choices.

[Steve9]

Brooklyn, 

Have you seen the 1930 Dodge sedan on Hemmings.com?

Edited May 12, 2019 by Steve9 (see edit history)

[Brooklyn Beer]

Yep.  It is a very nice looking car and all there for sure.  It is on the short list for sure.