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Advice / input on buying a late 20's - early 30's car


Brooklyn Beer

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I'm enjoying the thread. It's really taken off, with Franklin becoming it's poster child. I might mention that all Franklins are CCCA "Classics." That might not mean anything to most here, but it can change the dynamics for showing and driving tours. 

 

I'v always been enthralled by the 1932-34, Franklin V12, especially the Club Brougham. A real melding of the form and function for which the opulence of the "Classic Era" is noted. I still remember the first time I saw one fifty years ago, in the old Harrah's collection.

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2 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

As a sidenote:  RE Franklin: There is a drops per-minute test in the shop manual or owner's manual for the weight of the gear oil for the transmissions - we asked one of the oil companies back in time for a recommended product that met that test for use in the 1930 Franklin transmission and upon installation that was the end of the need for double clutching - all be it if you missed a shift you still had to pull the car to the side of the road and restart (I packed the extra in the car when I sold it, and do not recall what it was, though perhaps this is something someone wants to start investigating as it was a pretty sweet deal).   By the way, the issue seems to be common with pretty much every car make pre-syncromesh transmission.

 

Franklin used the Saybolt viscosity scale.

In 1931 Franklin issued a dealer service bulletin that dropped the Saybolt viscosity requirement. I contacted a Quaker State engineer to get more info about it and he sent me a Saybolt to SAE, and other, oil viscousity scale conversion chart. Turns out that 31 service bulletin's new Saybolt viscosity is equivalent to an SAE 140 gear oil. I've used 140, or 85-140 ever since in 22 to 32 Franklins and if the transmission and clutch are as they should be, I've had no problem shifting as I mentioned in my earlier post. 

 

And if the acme thread shaft seals are cleaned and set up like Franklin designed them to be, the trans doesn't leak using that SAE 140 either.  Frankln designed them to work well and they do when they are brought back to how Franklin meant them to be.

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, PFitz said:

In 1931 Franklin issued a dealer service bulletin that dropped the Saybolt viscosity requirement. I contacted a Quaker State engineer to get more info about it and he sent me a Saybolt to SAE, and other, oil viscousity scale conversion chart. Turns out that 31 service bulletin's new Saybolt viscosity is equivalent to an SAE 140 gear oil. I've used 140, or 85-140 ever since in 22 to 32 Franklins and if the transmission and clutch are as they should be, I've had no problem shifting as I mentioned in my earlier post. 

 

 

When I overhauled my Series 11A gearbox I used 85/140 in it at first, and then replaced that with someone's recommendation of the 600W that you buy from Schneiders - that made shifting quite difficult when cold, so one of the jobs for me is to drain that out and put the 85/140 back in to it. Although draining it out on a day like today in Michigan where it's barely 20°F isn't likely to happen.

 

Roger

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5 hours ago, PFitz said:

A few years ago, the Club converted them into computer files so that the members could have direct access without paying to have copies made.  

 

 

That is an incredible resource, and I sometimes wonder what other clubs have similar available. I have downloaded hundreds of them in self answering questions about my Series 11A, and have sent a few of them away to have new parts made too.

 

And it's very cool to be down in the basement at the Gilmore Car Museum and see the wooden cabinets they're kept in, and open a drawer and see the original 90+ year old drawings.

 

Roger

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19 hours ago, theKiwi said:

 

When I overhauled my Series 11A gearbox I used 85/140 in it at first, and then replaced that with someone's recommendation of the 600W that you buy from Schneiders - that made shifting quite difficult when cold, so one of the jobs for me is to drain that out and put the 85/140 back in to it. Although draining it out on a day like today in Michigan where it's barely 20°F isn't likely to happen.

 

Roger

Correct, do not use that 600W model A stuff in your Franklin. 

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600W almost sounds like road tar.  At 20 you would need a blast heater blowing on it to get it moving I would think.  Your right in that I doubt any club has the engineering spec's available to them like the Franklin Club does. Surprised with all the resources available to companies like Ford, GM, etc that they don't have a devoted "hobby" office with stuff like this. maybe they do?  I just never heard of it.  Next new question.  When did Franklin start using mechanical fuel pumps and was it an outsourced pump or was it an in house engineered pump?    

 

When Franklin increased the wheel base and length of their cars for different series, did that also add different options like heavy duty shocks, larger tires, larger brakes,  etc ?  Though I am not in the market for a V12 or a limo I do like size and size defined by things like side mounts. So I guess asking if side mounts were an option on any car they offered would also be a good question.

Edited by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)
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Just now, Brooklyn Beer said:

I had dreams when I was 18 of owing a P51 Mustang too   Till reality of actuality set in.  I just like the length and lines of a long hood and grill with side mounts

 

Well there are more P-51 Mustangs around than there are V12 Franklins...

 

Roger

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On 1/19/2019 at 11:59 AM, Buffalowed Bill said:

I'm enjoying the thread. It's really taken off, with Franklin becoming it's poster child. I might mention that all Franklins are CCCA "Classics." That might not mean anything to most here, but it can change the dynamics for showing and driving tours. 

 

It’s interesting to me that it took till page 9 to mention Franklin cars are CCCA classics. This is frosting on the cake, I’ve never really considered this make before and the price of admission is sure tempting too! 

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It does give me an option to take part in something if the stars ever align in my world to step out and do something different with the car enthusiast world.  Until I started asking questions it was never even a consideration.  All the "CCCA full classic" and "AACA 1st champion" pasted on the for sale adds were just for the rich guys at concourse events or Pebble Beach.  Never put any stock in it as I would never be buying a 350K Packard.    Touring?  What was that?   A Trek?  Never entered my mind. So as I started this thread looking to have the differences of the fine late 20's and early 30's automobiles explained to me so I could find the right around town driver I have actually not only learned more about the cars but also a great community of people I never knew existed. 

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On ‎1‎/‎21‎/‎2019 at 11:17 PM, Steve9 said:

 

It’s interesting to me that it took till page 9 to mention Franklin cars are CCCA classics. This is frosting on the cake, I’ve never really considered this make before and the price of admission is sure tempting too! 

The Club members tend more toward friendships and enjoying driving the cars, than in judged competition.  So many of us tend to forget to mention that. 

 

It's very family oriented Club. Many of the cars are now being driven by the third generation. And many couples have met through the Club - myself included.  And my stepson recently became one of the third generation Franklin owners with his Grandfather's 1926 touring car.  While some members do enter judged shows, the Franklin Club does not do typical judging events. That's just not a priority to the majority of members.

 

There are awards given out at the Trek, but not for judging points. The closest to that would be the "Trekker's Choice" award. But the entire membership at the Trek  are the judges. The award is for the car that the members vote that they would most like to take home. Then there is one award for who drove their Franklin the furthest.  Otherwise, during that week we are more likely to judge the food.  One long standing joke at the  Franklin Trek week of touring is that the cars are a nice way to get from meal to meal.  😁

 

Paul

Edited by PFitz (see edit history)
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8 hours ago, 29 franklin said:

This car is for sale on the Franklin website 

So while we are mentioning it, what is your opinion of that car on the website?  Does anyone know this car?         

 

October 23, 2018 

For Sale: 1931 Frankin

1931 Franklin 4 door
Older restoration 
The following was done on September 1st:

  • Starter has been replaced
  • Wheels and drums have been cleaned
  • Front wheel cylinder was removed and repaired
  • Front brake shoes were realigned
  • New battery installed

Price: $25,000.

 

Car

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On 1/21/2019 at 6:21 PM, Brooklyn Beer said:

 Next new question.  When did Franklin start using mechanical fuel pumps and was it an outsourced pump or was it an in house engineered pump?    

 

 V12 or a limo

 

I do like size and size defined by things like side mounts. So I guess asking if side mounts were an option on any car they offered would also be a good question.

1929 was the first year for a mechanical fuel pump - it is a mix of generic and fairly unique  parts 1929-1930. And, 31-34 Pumps use to be available via a good farm impliment store probably up into early 2000's - still find-able.

 

As to a V-12 - they are BIG chunks of change that rarely are available outside of the club

 

As to Limousines (with dividers) - they are on the same series wheelbase as a non-limousine, but all things considered fairly unusual.   7-passenger  cars are find-able - a 147 for example is a lovely car. 

 

Sidemount spare tires were an option, as were wire wheels.   Some body styles cars came standard with wires (ex. a roadster 1929-1931, Speedster 1929-1932, Pirate 1930-1931) and some cars such as a Speedster (1929-1932) are rear mounted with sidemounts not being offered.  Generally most sedans can be converted over to sidemounts and/or wire wheels all be it parts availability takes some hunting (not impossible though as there have been a number of sedan parted out over time via having bad wood or not being too rough to cost effective to restore).

 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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On 1/21/2019 at 8:50 PM, Brooklyn Beer said:

I had dreams when I was 18 of owing a P51 Mustang too   Till reality of actuality set in.  I just like the length and lines of a long hood and grill with side mounts

My twin aunts when they were just teenagers. Right after the war and this was in MA. Look at the boys climbing and running around those P51’s. With what they’re worth today, they wouldn’t let a kid anywhere near one, never mind let them climb all over it.

2F8703BB-2437-46D0-A02F-CEAB905D1D69.jpeg

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24 minutes ago, chistech said:

My twin aunts when they were just teenagers. Right after the war and this was in MA. Look at the boys climbing and running around those P51’s. With what they’re worth today, they wouldn’t let a kid anywhere near one, never mind let them climb all over it.

2F8703BB-2437-46D0-A02F-CEAB905D1D69.jpeg

Remember though,  right after the war they were selling brand new plans to scrappers full of fuel,  because they were buying them cheaper than the fuel and scrap value. 

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Slight correction - not all Franklin's made from 1925 thru the end in 1934 are full classics as determined by CCCA, the series 18 " Olympic"  cars used the same engine as the full classic Airman Franklins of 1932-34 but the rest of the car was a Reo Flying Cloud bought by the Franklin company minus engine, hood, grille shell, hubcaps and temperature gauge on the dashboard. Olympics used a Hayes built body, and were much lighter then the Airman , but in using the same engine were very fast cars! Full CCCA classic or not the Olympic is an amazing automobile. The very first Olympic ever made , a 4 door sedan, still exists.

For a while about 25+ years ago, an early airplane designer and builder used to attend the Franklin Club annual treks, he is now deceased. That was Ed Granville, really nice gent to talk too, he and his brother back in the 1930s designed and built the Gee Bee ( Granville Brothers) bullet shaped racing airplanes.

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On 1/19/2019 at 2:59 PM, Buffalowed Bill said:

I'm enjoying the thread. It's really taken off, with Franklin becoming it's poster child. I might mention that all Franklins are CCCA "Classics." That might not mean anything to most here, but it can change the dynamics for showing and driving tours. 

 

 

As Walt notes, the Olympics are excluded from CCCA Full Classic® status, as well as currently all Franklins pre 1925 are on a "please apply" status...

 

https://www.classiccarclub.org/grand_classics/approved_classics_2018.html

 

Roger

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  • 2 months later...

Been some time since this thread was used.  This car popped up on Hemmings.  Besides what looks like oil leaking from everything which scares the crap out of me, is there any other nasty things lurking about that can be seen?  Seems like a lot of money considering what the underside looks to have spraying all over it.

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On 4/2/2019 at 8:44 PM, Brooklyn Beer said:

I guess i forgot to include the link   sorry about that.  Haven't been on because nothing has popped up for sale till now.  But I keep searching and looking.

 

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/franklin/airman/2249343.html

There was a decent 1930 145 Sedan that showed up on the club website last week - www.franklincar.org.  I exchanged some notes with the owner.  They found the missing parts for the car - sidemount hubcaps, spare tire mirrors, and a few other things  (and they are in very good condition).  The car was a super nice original with partial older restoration and unfortunately has been put outside for the past 4 months (and it needs rescued real quick given Florida climate).  Unfortunately, they want too much money for the car and I am afraid if reality does not set in a perfectly good car will get ruined.   Take a go at it as it would make a really great car.

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Yes I saw that and it looks like it has sat out longer then the 4 months.  The paint has already taken a beating. Compared to other cars that have been posted in the past it seems very over priced.  Is the owner a club member?  I am surprised he didn't give a more reasonable price after looking at the two much better cars posted for equal and 10k less money.

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1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Yes I saw that and it looks like it has sat out longer then the 4 months.  The paint has already taken a beating. Compared to other cars that have been posted in the past it seems very over priced.  Is the owner a club member?  I am surprised he didn't give a more reasonable price after looking at the two much better cars posted for equal and 10k less money.

I did not ask if a club member.  I would guess it has lacquer on it and ... - Florida outside is a tough climate.    My guess is car would clean up to be usable for a good long while.   They sent interior photos and it has some marginal spots, but overall not too bad.   Other than ignition switch it appears to be a complete car too.  And, it was set out by a fellow who got it running and driveable (which they say it is).  

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I see a 1928 FRANKLIN AIRMAN MODEL 12B 4 DOOR SEDAN has been posted for sale on the Franklin classified page.  Not run in 9 years as stated and needs a good going over to get started (fuel system) as well as a brake overhaul.  Can anyone tell me how difficult this on this car?

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Yes this just came up a few days ago. One of the first things to do is make sure the valves are not stuck. This could cause the aluminum rocker box to crack if they are . Not good. Just tapping on them lightly will most times loosen them up. This car also has a vacuum type fuel canister which will most likely have to be gone thru. Definitely go thru the whole fuel system . I  would redo the brakes and master cylinder also.  I am sure the car will run but needs some care. Or you can buy mine and you wont have to do anything . 1929 on the website . will talk if interested

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18 hours ago, 29 franklin said:

Yes this just came up a few days ago. One of the first things to do is make sure the valves are not stuck. This could cause the aluminum rocker box to crack if they are . Not good. Just tapping on them lightly will most times loosen them up. This car also has a vacuum type fuel canister which will most likely have to be gone thru. Definitely go thru the whole fuel system . I  would redo the brakes and master cylinder also.  I am sure the car will run but needs some care. Or you can buy mine and you wont have to do anything . 1929 on the website . will talk if interested

That is a very nice 1928 - and sidemounted spares too, very nice windwings, and beautiful interior.   I am not a fan of green in general, though colors would be helped per se if car was properly pinstriped (a gold on both sides of ivory may look nice).  It could also use the door handles nickle plated and an appropriate luggage trunk.  The price is very right and gives you plenty of wiggle room should you have to get into any mechanicals.   Sidenote:  It may have  touch of frame sag via gaps on hood side - have a pair of vinyl tire covers made that cover opening of sidemounts and ignore . 

Edited by John_Mereness (see edit history)
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20 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

I see a 1928 FRANKLIN AIRMAN MODEL 12B 4 DOOR SEDAN has been posted for sale on the Franklin classified page.  Not run in 9 years as stated and needs a good going over to get started (fuel system) as well as a brake overhaul.  Can anyone tell me how difficult this on this car?

 

If you don't check out this one sumting wong....... :wacko:

 

http://www.franklincar.org/forsale/

Franklin.jpg

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1 hour ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Question, if the frame has sagged, will it continue to sage and is there a repair for it?

Go down to the Franklin section and search frame sag.  It has been discussed and seems to be a relatively easy repair.

What a deal for a real Classic.  

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I found the repair article on the frame and though looks complicated, it basically resembles using a bow string to bring things back to straight with tension and compression. The diagram explains it pretty well.  Now putting it to practical use might be different because how do you measure that you have each cable on both sides at same tension to not twist the body?  I am sure the sag is not equal either but if you can get each cable placed in the same manner with patience you could measure off a level surface to the bottom of each rail?  Most like a turnbuckle needs installed to gradually keep bringing it up? The repair needed on a 10 year old car with newer wood would go easier then on 80 year old seasoned wood. On the flip side I am sure it won't sagging any more after all this time. I would like hearing from someone who has done this repair by the factory offered method or any other method.   Would not a piece of flat stock steel plasma cut following the original shape of a non-sagged frame rail cut 3/8 th under-sized to hide the edges and then attached to the rail after jacking up the sag be as good? 

 

The car looks to be a very nice starting point but my limited knowledge of a Franklin might be a determent to getting this car on the road by mid summer.  I am sure with club members help any project can be done as I learn my way around things. Wood and wood repair is not as much of an obstacle for me as would be some of the mechanical aspects. Brakes being first on the list just because of a parts issue.   The brakes needing cylinders rebuilt and master cylinder gone over and rebuilt I don't even know where to start on parts wise. The fuel system I am sure i could work out on a weekend. Stuck valves? I hear folks say "tapping on the rods to free from the guides".  I can't find any procedure on that. Again remember I have never ever seen a Franklin in person. Long time owners talk of what is needed to get the car running and driving as not a very complicated project and I believe them. I brought back my 46 Dodge coupe after an 8 year sit. But the Franklin is a much different animal in regards to the age and mechanicals and parts availability

 

The seller is a Franklin club member and I don't wish to insult them by making a lower offer. But I also don't know anything about the expense needed if parts in the braking and fuel system start needing more then a rebuild. I am sure fixing the frame sag could turn into a big expense.  New tires about 800-900.  Can anyone chime in on the other values for things needing repaired mentioned in the add?

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