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lincolnmatthews

V-12 REbuild $$$$$$$

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Hello mentioned previously having sent my V12 down to Portland for a rebuild, just heard back today that its cracked (2 spots from the exhaust seats into the cylinder walls). They want to sleeve these 2 cyls at an added cost of $1000.00 ($500.00 ea cyl) does this sound reasonable?. I talked to Cast Iron Repair out of Arlington WA he said that yet it needs to be sleeved but also welded to prevent blowing out a head gasket in the future, I have to verify that the rebuilder was going to have it welded, if not then I have a problem.

I have a spare block & I'm going to check out for a crack on the seats, but will probably send it down to Portland to have it magnaflexed. It will probably be cracked too, I assume that most of these blocks are cracked. Maybe I'm wrong, I only know that its getting almost beyond what I want to spend on this project, considering I'm only beginning having to buy wiring from Rhode Island at $1500 ++ Thanks!

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My block had 5 cracks
I bought a good used block 
I would not want my block welded
my opinion is get a good used block
my rebuild is going to be around 10k

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Welding the block is not a good idea. It can lead to other cracks and is more expensive to have done right than stitching. Stitching involves drilling along the crack and filling the holes with threaded plugs.

 

To properly weld  a block, it should be heated in a oven, welded and then allowed to come to room temperature over a long period. Even then a weld may not hold due to contamination in the casting.

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I'm about to find out how well stitching works on a Lincoln K V12 and I'll say that I much prefer that option to welding, which can cause all kinds of problems down the road. I have seen some stitching jobs that render the repair invisible when it's finished. But with a Zephyr V12, it might be worthwhile to see if you can find a replacement block that does not need such work--you've already got it apart, so a rebuild is going to happen anyway. In my case, my engine is still intact and assembled and we're hoping to repair it without the need for full disassembly and a rebuild (which will be tens of thousands of dollars). Look around for a replacement block and see if you can find a better one. They're around.

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Matt, Where is your metal stitcher ? I am west of Pittsburgh, Pa. and looking today for a metal stitcher. I am being sent to a man on the coast of Mass. Thank You........

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I'd get a professional opinion from the stitcher as to whether the block should be sleeved BEFORE the stitching was done.  Fifteen years ago I had Lock-n-Stitch (best in the business!) of Turlock, CA, repair a Pierce block for me.  The worst crack was one that went from the #2 exhaust valve seat across the deck and 2.5 inches down into the cylinder--and they repaired it successfully and it has held all that time. There was minimal taper, so I hadn't planned to sleeve, but Lock-n-Stitch strongly recommended that the affected cylinder NOT be sleeved, to avoid stressing the repair.

 

I haven't had an H-series V-12 for 15 years, but I well remember the words in the 1960s Ocee Ritch book about perhaps sleeving to accept Ford 3-1/16 pistons for an increase to 331 cid.  (I didn't have to rebuild.)  The cylinder walls are already thin, especially on the 305 cid 1942 and 1946 versions of the engine vs. the 292 they went back to for 1947-48, much less the original displacement of 267 cid.  Doing so would, of course, somewhat reduce coolant capacity.  I'm sure that Best Practices for rebuild of these blocks have changed since I had one, but wanted to put out these thoughts for your consideration.  

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, 23hack said:

Matt, Where is your metal stitcher ? I am west of Pittsburgh, Pa. and looking today for a metal stitcher. I am being sent to a man on the coast of Mass. Thank You........

 

I believe my block is going to the same guy to whom you were referred. Tom Laferriere is arranging the work and his stitcher is in New England (a fellow named Frank), so I have to assume they're the same person. Tom says he's the best in the business, but I'm not qualified to say. I'm pulling the engine out of the car, but Tom is picking it up and taking it to the stitcher, so I don't have shipping costs to worry about.

 

For what it's worth, I spoke at length with Matt at Matt's Metal Stitching in Hamburg, NY, and I was extremely impressed with his knowledge and work. If I were doing this particular repair on my own, I'd go to him largely because of proximity, but he appears to do first-rate work. Check out some of the photos on his website, they're extremely impressive. He and I corresponded about my Lincoln's problems and he was confident that he could fix it no matter how big a patch was required. But since Tom is handling the repairs, I'm trusting him to take it to a guy he believes in to get it done right.

 

Here's Matt's website: https://mattscastironrepair.com/

 

Frankly, I think metal stitching looks like black magic, but everyone swears that it works and works better than welding in most cases. For a fully assembled engine like mine, it's really the only solution and I think I would trust it more than welding on a bare block. I'd be worried about spending all that time and money reassembling an engine only to have a weld give way. Cast iron, particularly old cast iron that's full of impurities and contaminants just from decades of use, can be extremely tricky to weld. I've never had experience welding something like a block, but I have had manifolds done and only two out of six actually held up in use. That alone would make me nervous about welding a block into which I'm about to pour a bunch of expensive machine work and parts.

 

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

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Thanks you guys, I talked to my rebuilder this AM, he is going to "stich it" and sleeve & then resurface the block of course (not sure of the particular order). He stated that he has done this a lot to Flat head Fords and has had very good results. I will be checking my spare block just to see how it is 1st, if its no better then I guess I will be going with my rebuilders recommendations.

 

He did say (made sense to me later) that where it is cracked that the head gasket doesn't make contact, as its within the combustion area. So no welding is necessary.

 

 

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Thank you Matt. Frank was recommended to me by first hand experience. He is the Pro from Dover for stitchery. 

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I don't understand why they would tell you that it would need to be welded to prevent blowing a head gasket.  If it's cracked from the valve seat to the cylinder , none of that is under the gasket. Even if it was , I still don't see a problem.  Every flathead V8 I've built always have cracks between a head stud and water hole.  Never , ever had an issue.   The crack being in the valve seat I would want it stitched though to prevent further cracking.  That method works very well.  

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