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hidden_hunter

1922 Type 61 wont start

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Hi guys,

 

I’ve progressed a little further with getting the 1922 type 61 to start but I’m now out of ideas of what to try next. I have tried turning it over for up to 30 seconds (as per the book) and it doesn’t even sound like it’s trying to start

 

Here is the current state of the car:

  • Totally rewired the car and now have an excellent spark that’s clearly visible in the daylight. 
  • Replaced the float with a new poly one from classic and exotic 
  • Timed the motor as per the book 
  • Starter turns the motor easily 
  • Fuel pressure of 1lbs is easily attained and maintained
  • Plugs look ‘dry’ if removed after attempting to start


About the only thing I can think of is that it’s not getting fuel? I can see fuel weeping out between the bowl and carb but I’m not sure if that would be enough to stop it from starting?

 

Is there something to check on the throttle pump or something else on the carb I should look at? Or some other thing to check?

 

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Try spraying some 'start ya bastard' in the throat of the carb.

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2 hours ago, maok said:

Try spraying some 'start ya bastard' in the throat of the carb.

I agree! If it doesn't start with this recheck timing and ignition components. Make sure you are getting a good strong spark at the proper moment.

start.jpg

Edited by JFranklin (see edit history)

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Hi Stuart, Moe and JFranklin. Wouldn't you guys think the " 'bastard" should be VERY sparingly administrated by way of the primer cups ? That flapper in the Johnson is rather delicate. MAKE SURE YOU FULLY RETARD YOUR TIMING CONTROL DURING THIS TEST. Also in this case, you will get some diagnostic data by way of bypassing the carb entirely. I found it beneficial in my time to send my two Johnsons out to professional rebuilders, although they were apparently functioning quite well. The '24 went out to Mark Bubber (no longer in business) almost 30 years ago. The '27 went to Classic & Exotic a bit over 3 years ago. They found things I NEVER would have. Very fast turn around from C&E, but unless a logistical opportunity presents itself, this recommendation is probably impractical at such intercontinental distances. I sure hope you are running well soon.              Wishing I ran as well as my oldies,   -  Cadillac Carl 

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Plugs out or just down the primer cup? I’ve tried that before and struggle to spray it into the priming cups - not sure how to spray it into the carb?

 

spark is strong as I’ve accidentlu ignited start ya bastard from the priming cup...

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Mmmmm, what you have to do is align the "drinking straw" close up with the open hole in the 'cup and give it a whiff. Then quickly close up that 'cup an on to the next. Am I operating in scrambled brain mode, or weren't you missing a couple of 'cups ? Now once you are up and running, you can open all the 'cups and crank with the starter with ignition on. Don't let the audience too close to the engine while demonstrating this stunt.   -  CC 

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Sorry Carl, I didn't realise that Ms Johnson was wearing a flapper dress...😃

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25 minutes ago, C Carl said:

Mmmmm, what you have to do is align the "drinking straw" close up with the open hole in the 'cup and give it a whiff. Then quickly close up that 'cup an on to the next. Am I operating in scrambled brain mode, or weren't you missing a couple of 'cups ? Now once you are up and running, you can open all the 'cups and crank with the starter with ignition on. Don't let the audience too close to the engine while demonstrating this stunt.   -  CC 

 

Yeah I only have 4 cups, I’m thinking that should still have a chance to fire if it’s going to run 

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Pull the 4 other plugs first, and prime those cylinders with gasoline. If, after zipping the spark plugs back up, and getting a short even burst of power encouraged by the 4 jugs primed with the " 'bastard", that should serve as an invitation to "play doctor" with the period correct Ms Johnson...😏

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I would keep trying with the Starting Fluid/Ether  - and on the safety side = spray it and then start it as a flame can follow the spray and actually explode the can in worst case scenario of your hand or ... and make sure car is not parked on paper/cardboard or ...

 

If is shows no signs of sputtering on starting fluid then you are looking as spark or timing as the issue. 

 

Spark is not always spark - you need quality spark.

 

It has to turn over at a certain pace too - make sure well grounded

 

Condensers seem to be an issue these days

 

With timing you can always go back to basics of finding # 1 TDC

 

Also, a little more difficult with cars with adjustable spark - they always seem to have a magic spot.

 

And, I doubt you are going to hurt anything.

 

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Well, I am hoping no news is good news, and that you are out driving, losing track of time. If still stumped, have you figured whether you are dealing with the fuel side or the ignition side ?   -   CC 

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On 12/29/2018 at 6:47 PM, C Carl said:

Well, I am hoping no news is good news, and that you are out driving, losing track of time. If still stumped, have you figured whether you are dealing with the fuel side or the ignition side ?   -   CC 

 

Not yet, had to go to work today - hopefully get a chance tomorrow 

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Latest update, someone has used heliocoils on the manifold that have popped out. So going to have to locate an imperial repair kit to fix it....

 

On a side note if anyone has a spare manifold they willing to part with mine is fairly dead...

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11 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

Latest update, someone has used heliocoils on the manifold that have popped out. So going to have to locate an imperial repair kit to fix it....

 

On a side note if anyone has a spare manifold they willing to part with mine is fairly dead...

 

Now I am not familiar with any Cadilac, as proved above, but why do you need another manifold? If its not cracked, broken or stolen, you can get any machine shop to surface the faces of it for less than $100 bucks mate.

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46 minutes ago, maok said:

 

Now I am not familiar with any Cadilac, as proved above, but why do you need another manifold? If its not cracked, broken or stolen, you can get any machine shop to surface the faces of it for less than $100 bucks mate.

 

It is cracked on the flanges 

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Still can be fixed. Remember, its not a Ford Model A or T where you can buy anything and everthing new for it.

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1 hour ago, maok said:

Still can be fixed. Remember, its not a Ford Model A or T where you can buy anything and everthing new for it.

I’ve heard trying to weld this old cast iron can often cause it to break apart?

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23 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

I’ve heard trying to weld this old cast iron can often cause it to break apart?

If you are planning to replace it anyway why not take it to someone that can Braze it. If it breaks you can then justify replacement.

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On 1/6/2019 at 10:36 AM, JFranklin said:

If you are planning to replace it anyway why not take it to someone that can Braze it. If it breaks you can then justify replacement.

 

No-one seems to have a replacement is part of the problem, I'm not sure I want to risk it either 😐

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3 minutes ago, hidden_hunter said:

 

No-one seems to have a replacement is part of the problem, I'm not sure I want to risk it either 😐

 

So what do you propose to get things going? What don't you want to risk?

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1 minute ago, JFranklin said:

 

So what do you propose to get things going? What don't you want to risk?

The manifold crack is where the tailpipe meets it, so it should be ok to work but just a bit of an exhaust leak. I don't want to risk somewhere more critical breaking if they tried to heat the whole thing to repair it

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Maybe some muffler leak repair wrap might come in handy. Maybe someone could fabricate a set of headers to fit for a fix.

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4 hours ago, JFranklin said:

Maybe some muffler leak repair wrap might come in handy. Maybe someone could fabricate a set of headers to fit for a fix.

Might do that until one shows up 

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   In my opinion starting an older engine like this is a bit risky. The ether, I believe, is going to have about the effect of bumping the compression ratio from maybe 4-1 up to maybe 10-1 or so. perhaps not that much, I don't know, someone else here may know more about ether. But babbit or poured rod and main bearings are not at all suitable those kinds of forces. The industry needed shell bearings to move onto higher compression engines. Babbit beating I have heard this abuse called.

 

   I think getting some fuel in though the carburetors air intake or even a vacuum line fitting if there is one , and squirting some gas in with an oil squirt can, with a length of rubber tubing to get down under the manifold where the Johnson lives. Have someone turn the engine over while you introduce a small bit of gas into the carb or manifold. 

 

   I wouldn't get too liberal with the gas, if the engine is turning over and there is spark and air and all else is well you will get a reaction and it shouldn't take a lot.  If it wants to sputter you can set about curing the fuel delivery troubles. You have isolated the problem to fuel.

 

 My guess is the accelerator pump is bad. 20 years ago I hand made the internal parts for the Johnson in my 1927 LaSalle phaeton. After much effort the car started and ran well, something it had not done before I bought it. I short time later I heard of a fellow making rebuild kits for Johnsons. The fellow has since died but I heard someone took over his niche retirement business. In my opinion that $125  kit was the best rebuild kit of any kind I have ever used. The very cleanest of brass work. 

 

   And if it isn't that, good luck, not to fear,  it's still fixable once you find it.   Jim43

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Finally got some time to work on the car late last night (weddings take time... who would have thought)

 

Still no go :(

 

Tried introducing fuel via the taps, and it made no difference.

 

The most I've been able to get out of it was a little bit of a popback via the top of the carb. Starter is turning nicely, spark appears to be strong and the float bowl is full and the throttle pump chamber appears to have had fuel in it.

 

It does also look like the needle isn't shutting off the fuel properly, as it will continue to pour out if you dont' release the pressure - though I'm not sure how much of this is expected given that there is a catch and a pipe for this.

 

I'm thinking either timing or bad gas - it smells pretty rubbish and at best is mixed with some pretty old fuel but it does burn in the lawn mower? Thoughts on where to go next?

 

I haven't been able to find anyone in Melbourne yet that really knows these cars, and can give anything more definitive than 'having a go' at it

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