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First generation headlights


RivNut

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I get an email copy of the ROA's Australian Region newsletter as it's published.  Before going further, I must add that it's a great publication for a region.  In the latest issue, there's an article on adding a relay to the headlight system in the first generation Rivieras.  This helps relieve the electrical load that goes through the headlight switch.  It's been discussed here previously but I couldn't find the thread to add to it so here it is.  I've copied and pasted from that document so it's pasted here in a similar format as in the original issue. There was no credit given except for "Riv Wizard 17"  

 

 

A design fault on the first generation Rivs is that all the power for the head-lights runs through the light switch on the dash. As our cars are over 50 years old the contacts in the connector can have poor contact due to the Hot Cold expansion and the contact blades lose their spring. Have a look at the heat damaged connector that was recently pulled from a
1965 Riv. The easy & best way to eliminate this problem is to fit a relay in the engine bay. I found a nice relay that looks retro and has a fuse for each headlight. 
You can remove the manufacturers label so it looks retro.

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.e9571289647deaf924902fe05c470e85.jpeg

 

Relay Details:
New-Era Cat #NLR-132
HS Auto Electrics
23 Oban Road, Ringwood
Victoria 3134
03-9879 1412
If you need more information about this Riv Wizard article I suggest that you contact Tom Kunek on 0419 658 500.
 
Ed
To get in touch with Tom, look him up on the ROA roster that's part of the ROA website under the Members Only section.
 
Edited by RivNut (see edit history)
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I KNOW Ed meant to say headlight switch & NOT the ignition switch.

On the 1st. gens I use a NAPA AR200 relay which is a 60 amp continuous duty relay. I mount them behind the battery on the L/F fender well. Can't be seen. & the wire run is short enough to use the original wiring.

 

Tom T.

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35 minutes ago, telriv said:

I KNOW Ed meant to say headlight switch & NOT the ignition switch.

On the 1st. gens I use a NAPA AR200 relay which is a 60 amp continuous duty relay. I mount them behind the battery on the L/F fender well. Can't be seen. & the wire run is short enough to use the original wiring.

 

Tom T.

Thanks for catching that.  I've gone into the original post and made the appropriate change.

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Hi Ed, Nice to see you enjoy reading the ROA Australian Region newsletter.

 

It is sent free to anyone who has an interest in Rivs.

Yes it is a Regional newsletter with local news & events but there are always articles that would be of interest no matter where you live.

We also invite non ROA members to join the ROA and enjoy the benefits of membership.

John Forster works his magic talents as our Editor at Large.

If you would like to go on the mailing list just send a email to John at ausriview@gmail.com 

 

Tom Kunek ROA#3845

Australian National Co-Ordinator

riv@netspace.net.au

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On ‎12‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 2:19 PM, RivNut said:

I get an email copy of the ROA's Australian Region newsletter as it's published.  Before going further, I must add that it's a great publication for a region. 

 

I agree, it is always a good read, and yes, a great publication for a Region!

 

I gave it a try several years ago but just didn't keep it going. Mine was no where near the quality of The Australian Riview though.

 

Here is the article, it is on page 7 of the Jan 2019 publication …

 

968642600_January_2019-Pg7.thumb.jpg.4900c31093cd20566aaa2cd8a11bae35.jpg

 

Just as an FYI … The Australian Riview is posted on the ROA website under the Australia section of the Regional New & Events tab.

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Looks to be a dual relay with fuses, nice piece. My only concern is if the relays inside are replaceable if one fails. 

 

I'm going to do this on mine, but i'm over-engineering and going with 12 or 10 gauge wire to replace the factory 16 gauge. According to amp calculators, that wire is on the very edge of handing 30 amp. Modern headlights would really push it to the limits.

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  I`m sure the author did so but neglected to mention it, but first step in this process would be to replace the connecter at the headlight switch. Guess that`s should be obvious.

  If I did this conversion I would use auto-reset breakers instead of fuses. I`d also want a product which had a cover for the fuses/breakers to protect them from the elements as the manufacturer has done with the relays.

Tom

Edited by 1965rivgs (see edit history)
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Zimm63,

 

   I used 2. One for lows & one for highs. The wiring for the lights goes right past the battery at this spot so no need to add extra wire at the relays for the headlights. ONLY extra wire needed is power for the relays (from the junction block/horn relay) & this one 10ga. wire you could install some fusible link wire for protection & wrap it up in the stock harness for a complete, unmolested stock appearance. Since the headlight switch has a thermal breaker inside the assembly no need again for any extra fuses OR.

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Auto reset (thermal) breakers are a poor choice for headlights. I made that mistake on my first headlight harness decades ago. Circuit breakers are resistive, they have to be to generate the heat to trip on overload. If you use fuses instead, your headlights will be brighter.

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4 hours ago, Bloo said:

Auto reset (thermal) breakers are a poor choice for headlights. I made that mistake on my first headlight harness decades ago. Circuit breakers are resistive, they have to be to generate the heat to trip on overload. If you use fuses instead, your headlights will be brighter.

Wonder why GM used such a breaker in their headlight switches for decades as did every heavy duty truck/tractor trailer combo I worked on for 40 years? Hmmm...

Tom

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Just now, 1965rivgs said:

Wonder why GM used such a breaker in their headlight switches for decades as did every heavy duty truck/tractor trailer combo I worked on for 40 years? Hmmm...

 

They picked reliability over brightness. Today we don't have to.

 

GM started using the breaker on the headlight switch in 1937 (I think). Some 1936 models went through extreme machinations to put one headlight bulb on a separate fuse so that a fuse failure wouldn't make the whole front end of the car go dark. Once they went to the breaker in 1937, a trip would make the front of the car dark, but at least it would try to come back on, and soon. You could change from high to low and maybe it would stay on.

 

As recently as the early 1980s, most relays weren't really reliable enough for headlights. I know this from experience. Not only did they not last very long, but many brands would not function properly in cold weather (-20F for example). For instance, you would beam down, and the low beams would come on, but the high beams would stay on too because the relay froze. Get to your destination and shut off the headlights? High beams still on (for example). This is probably why there are not headlight relays in older American cars, except in very special situations.

 

Headlight brightness falls off really fast with low voltage. 0.2v is a difference you can see. The typical old system runs through a thermal circuit breaker (with a piece of resistance wire in it), a set of points for the breaker, another set of points to turn the lights on, a third set of points at the dimmer switch, some connectors, and a bunch of wire to run from under the hood, into the dash, down to the floor, and then back out to the very front of the car. The wire used is lossy too because it is just barely big enough. If the owner buys new bulbs, they are higher wattage than the originals, making the voltage drop even worse than when the car was new. The losses stack up. This setup is usually a whole volt under alternator voltage even when it isn't broken.

 

It is reliable but dim. Today everybody complains that it's dim. Typically the reason someone adds relays is that they don't want it dim anymore.

 

Reliability of relays, even cheap ones these days is pretty good. You don't give up much by using them. If you plan it right and use enough relays and fuses, you can even insure that the front wont go dark if a fuse or relay fails.

 

A thermal circuit breaker has a set of points and a resistor reducing the voltage. An ATO fuse has neither.

 

 

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13 hours ago, Bloo said:

 

They picked reliability over brightness. Today we don't have to.

 

 

 

 

  The loss of a lighting system is no less hazardous today than it was in `65. Exactly why I recommended the breakers instead of fuses. Given that the illustrated relay system has reduced additive voltage loss to a minimum, all the more reason to add back a failsafe/reliability into the system. Of course, for failsafe purposes, it is possible to combine multiple voltage sources, fuses, relays, etc...but the more contacts, connections and switches/relays you add into the circuit the more potential failure points are introduced and there goes reliability. Sometimes simpler is, all things considered, better.

Tom

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On 12/26/2018 at 1:19 PM, RivNut said:

I get an email copy of the ROA's Australian Region newsletter as it's published.  Before going further, I must add that it's a great publication for a region.  In the latest issue, there's an article on adding a relay to the headlight system in the first generation Rivieras.  This helps relieve the electrical load that goes through the headlight switch.  It's been discussed here previously but I couldn't find the thread to add to it so here it is.  I've copied and pasted from that document so it's pasted here in a similar format as in the original issue. There was no credit given except for "Riv Wizard 17"  

 

 

A design fault on the first generation Rivs is that all the power for the head-lights runs through the light switch on the dash. As our cars are over 50 years old the contacts in the connector can have poor contact due to the Hot Cold expansion and the contact blades lose their spring. Have a look at the heat damaged connector that was recently pulled from a
1965 Riv. The easy & best way to eliminate this problem is to fit a relay in the engine bay. I found a nice relay that looks retro and has a fuse for each headlight. 
You can remove the manufacturers label so it looks retro.

 

 

image.thumb.jpeg.e9571289647deaf924902fe05c470e85.jpeg

 

Relay Details:
New-Era Cat #NLR-132
HS Auto Electrics
23 Oban Road, Ringwood
Victoria 3134
03-9879 1412
If you need more information about this Riv Wizard article I suggest that you contact Tom Kunek on 0419 658 500.
 
Ed
To get in touch with Tom, look him up on the ROA roster that's part of the ROA website under the Members Only section.
 

 

Does anyone have a source for this relay box or equivalent in the USA?

 

I suppose I can order one from Australia and pay shipping, but a source closer to us would be easier.

 

Thanks.

  

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On ‎12‎/‎30‎/‎2018 at 3:33 AM, Zimm63 said:

Tom- 

 

Do you use one relay for all lights, or two relays- one for high beam, one for low?  

 

Interested in making this improvement.  

 

Thanks

 

Zimm

 

Hi Zimm, The Relay box has 2 relays inside. One is for Hi beam and the other for Low.

You can find the wiring diagram in the Australian RIVIEW - ROA Regional News (ROA Web site) January Edition Page 15

It is a very easy relay to wire up. Can wire it out of sight next to the battery or on the inner fender.

Color of wires for a 1965.

Cheers

TomK

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IF using higher wattage power headlights 30 amps WON'T do it. Even the Hella 35 amp relays after a while melt. The NAPA AR200 relays may be overkill, but you WON'T have to replace them ANYTIME SOON.  I don't know what the cost is as a single unit, but figure the cost of two & where to find one if needed again. The NAPA ones in the long run MAY be less costly.

 

 

Tom T.

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 As an additional note, not sure if any protection exists under the cover of this unit in addition to the fuses or exactly which part of the circuit is protected by the fuses,  I would like to see some protection at the power source to protect the entire circuit including relays and not just the relay output to headlights part of the circuit. Especially so if potentially melting relays!

 Maybe the fuses provide that protection? Impossible to tell how the unit is wired under the cover? Or maybe such protection exists and it is out of the pic? Said protection (breaker, fuses or fusible link, etc..) could be installed just like the factory breaker at the junction block which protects the high blower relay circuit.

  Thanks to Tom K for posting this nice, easy to install little unit. 

Tom Mooney

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4 hours ago, telriv said:

IF using higher wattage power headlights 30 amps WON'T do it.

 

FWIW, 4 90W lamps at a nominal 12V is exactly 30 amps.

 

IMHO, if you're running lights with that much power, you don't need 4 of them.  Use the two outside lights in the normal high/low configuration, then convert the old high beams to DRLs.  In that configuration, a 30A relay is more than enough.

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2 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

 As an additional note, not sure if any protection exists under the cover of this unit in addition to the fuses or exactly which part of the circuit is protected by the fuses,  I would like to see some protection at the power source to protect the entire circuit including relays and not just the relay output to headlights part of the circuit. Especially so if potentially melting relays!

 Maybe the fuses provide that protection? Impossible to tell how the unit is wired under the cover? Or maybe such protection exists and it is out of the pic? 

 

NLR-132.jpg

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The simple answer is that the fuse to protect the large wire feeding the relay block cannot be in the relay block, it needs to be at the source or it won't protect the wire.

 

With the other wires fused at the block, a fuselink (and a bigger wire) on the source would make the most sense. The fuselink would have very little internal resistance, and due to it's slow-blow nature, would cause the a fuse to blow first in the event of a short on the fused high or fused low circuit. A wire of sufficient size and an ATO or Mega-Fuse would be ok, too.

 

It is important to plan things so an individual fuse in the block blows first, otherwise you have introduced a single point of failure that could cause the whole front of the car to go dark. Of course if the big feed wire shorted, it would still blow the fuselink (or fuse) on the big wire and make the front go dark, but thats better than burning the car down.

 

On the other hand, if you build your own stuff with individual relays and fuses, more failsafe possibilities open up. If it were me, I would, at a minimum run separate wires for the two relays and put the 2 fuses back at the source.

 

If I'm not limited to two relays, the failsafe possibilities get even better...

 

One other thing when choosing a connection point, the closer to the alternator you can get, the better.

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39 minutes ago, Bloo said:

It is important to plan things so an individual fuse in the block blows first, otherwise you have introduced a single point of failure that could cause the whole front of the car to go dark.

 

Since the fuse is there to protect the wire, seems to me that you size the fuse by the capacity of said wire -- which should be larger than any of the circuits that branch of off it.  But here's the kicker: IIRC, the feed from the junction block to the firewall is 10 ga.  A conservative capacity for that wire is 30A.  However, the blower has a 30A fuse and the power windows have a 40A breaker.  So if you have a 30A fuse on the main feed and the blower shorts, what blows?  What happens if a window shorts?

 

Now, you may argue that the calculations should be made using 14V rather than 12 or that 10 ga. wire can safely carry more than 30A for a short distance.  And in that case, you could put a larger fuse on it to skew the odds that a circuit blows before the main feed.  But still, if you're going to futz with this, maybe it's not such a bad idea to replace that run with something beefier (e.g. 8 ga. and a larger fuse).

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2 hours ago, Bloo said:

The simple answer is that the fuse to protect the large wire feeding the relay block cannot be in the relay block, it needs to be at the source or it won't protect the wire.

 

 

Bloo,

  I think you are confusing what we are calling the junction block with the relay block. Are you familiar with the battery feed on the drivers side fender well on the first gen rivs? There is a junction block there which the positive battery cable is attached to which feeds power to the car.I suspect (because it is out of the picture`s frame) that junction block is the source of power for the relay block. A form of protection at the junction block, which I assume is the source of power for the relay block, would protect the switched/relay circuit in its entirety.

  Or, maybe I am missing your point....

Tom

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4 hours ago, KongaMan said:

Since the fuse is there to protect the wire, seems to me that you size the fuse by the capacity of said wire -- which should be larger than any of the circuits that branch of off it.  But here's the kicker: IIRC, the feed from the junction block to the firewall is 10 ga.  A conservative capacity for that wire is 30A.  However, the blower has a 30A fuse and the power windows have a 40A breaker.  So if you have a 30A fuse on the main feed and the blower shorts, what blows?  What happens if a window shorts?

 

Now, you may argue that the calculations should be made using 14V rather than 12 or that 10 ga. wire can safely carry more than 30A for a short distance.  And in that case, you could put a larger fuse on it to skew the odds that a circuit blows before the main feed.  But still, if you're going to futz with this, maybe it's not such a bad idea to replace that run with something beefier (e.g. 8 ga. and a larger fuse).

 

I agree with all of that.

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3 hours ago, 1965rivgs said:

Bloo,

  I think you are confusing what we are calling the junction block with the relay block. Are you familiar with the battery feed on the drivers side fender well on the first gen rivs? There is a junction block there which the positive battery cable is attached to which feeds power to the car.I suspect (because it is out of the picture`s frame) that junction block is the source of power for the relay block. A form of protection at the junction block, which I assume is the source of power for the relay block, would protect the switched/relay circuit in its entirety.

  Or, maybe I am missing your point....

Tom

 

You're probably right. I was simply saying that whatever piece of wire that you add from the RIviera's wiring to the new relay block wouldn't be protected by fuses in the new relay block.

 

The RIviera's own wiring I hadn't really touched on, but you and KongaMan bring up good points. If it were practical to do so, I would run the feed wire (or wires) all the way back to the alternator post and fuselink it (or them) there. I have done that to other cars, but not Rivieras..

 

Current will flow from the highest voltage point in the system, and that is the alternator post when the car is running. It is desirable not only because the voltage is a little higher, but also because it takes all the headlight load off of the car's charging system wiring whenever the car is running. That said, I don't know if it is mechanically practical to do that on a first generation Riviera.

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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On 12/31/2018 at 12:29 PM, KongaMan said:

 

Since the fuse is there to protect the wire, seems to me that you size the fuse by the capacity of said wire -- which should be larger than any of the circuits that branch of off it.  But here's the kicker: IIRC, the feed from the junction block to the firewall is 10 ga.  A conservative capacity for that wire is 30A.  However, the blower has a 30A fuse and the power windows have a 40A breaker.  So if you have a 30A fuse on the main feed and the blower shorts, what blows?  What happens if a window shorts?

 

Now, you may argue that the calculations should be made using 14V rather than 12 or that 10 ga. wire can safely carry more than 30A for a short distance.  And in that case, you could put a larger fuse on it to skew the odds that a circuit blows before the main feed.  But still, if you're going to futz with this, maybe it's not such a bad idea to replace that run with something beefier (e.g. 8 ga. and a larger fuse).

 

That's what frustrated me about my 64. Very obvious cost cutting measures. I trust that GM hired very intelligent engineers, and I know that my knowledge of electric is very basic (don't let the magic smoke out). But I re-wired several circuits to try to get more failsafe protection on them. I even went 4awg on the feed line into the firewall. My 67 mustang was even worse, major cost cutting on the wiring of that car.

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On 12/31/2018 at 6:38 AM, telriv said:

IF using higher wattage power headlights 30 amps WON'T do it. Even the Hella 35 amp relays after a while melt. The NAPA AR200 relays may be overkill, but you WON'T have to replace them ANYTIME SOON.  I don't know what the cost is as a single unit, but figure the cost of two & where to find one if needed again. The NAPA ones in the long run MAY be less costly.

 

 

Tom T.

Thanks for the part number, noted.

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On 12/29/2018 at 11:38 AM, Bloo said:

Auto reset (thermal) breakers are a poor choice for headlights. I made that mistake on my first headlight harness decades ago. Circuit breakers are resistive, they have to be to generate the heat to trip on overload. If you use fuses instead, your headlights will be brighter.

 

That's been my understanding too, but i'd decided to go with aircraft grade on important ones, and marine grade on secondary ones. The thought being both have to stay running, so they must be more durable. 

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18 minutes ago, jsgun said:

 

That's what frustrated me about my 64. Very obvious cost cutting measures. I trust that GM hired very intelligent engineers, and I know that my knowledge of electric is very basic (don't let the magic smoke out). But I re-wired several circuits to try to get more failsafe protection on them. I even went 4awg on the feed line into the firewall. My 67 mustang was even worse, major cost cutting on the wiring of that car.

 

Consider the situation in which you jump in your car and it's about 40°, 100% humidity, and pouring down rain outside, and you're driving home at night (i.e. what's gong on outside my house right now).  That means you could well have the defroster (30A), headlights (26A), taillights (10A), wipers (25A), rear defogger (6A, if you've got one), radio (7.5A), clock (5A), and dash lights (3A) all on.  I don't know what the actual draw is on those circuits, but that's more than 100A worth of fuses without using power windows, antenna, or lighters.  With a 100% margin, that's 50A through the main 10 ga. feed and more than 30A though the accessory circuit and ignition switch.  Even without whatever risk of damage you assign to that, you're going to see substantial voltage loss in each of the individual circuits.  That means dim lights, creaky wipers, slow blower, etc.  Assuming your alternator can handle the load, it seems that one might prefer to have the power gets where it's wanted rather than dissipating as heat along the way.

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53 minutes ago, jsgun said:

 

That's been my understanding too, but i'd decided to go with aircraft grade on important ones, and marine grade on secondary ones. The thought being both have to stay running, so they must be more durable. 

 

They are durable! I am not arguing against using them, however I won't use them on headlights anymore because they are resistive, and a tiny bit of voltage makes a difference you can see in a headlight.

 

1 hour ago, jsgun said:

 

That's what frustrated me about my 64. Very obvious cost cutting measures. I trust that GM hired very intelligent engineers, and I know that my knowledge of electric is very basic (don't let the magic smoke out). But I re-wired several circuits to try to get more failsafe protection on them. I even went 4awg on the feed line into the firewall. My 67 mustang was even worse, major cost cutting on the wiring of that car.

 

In the 60s I firmly believe that the engineers made the right choice. At that time they would have been stuck with multiple glass fuses (which are lousy) and would have had to use multiple relays (which were lousy then) to prevent the whole front of the car going dark and staying dark.

 

If you replace any corroded/resistive switches in one of those systems, and chase out any other stray resistance by replacing any loose spade lugs, soldering any questionable crimps, etc., it absolutely can work as well as it did new. For a restored car it probably is the right choice. But, yes, things could have been better with bigger wire.

 

For brightest lights I like ATO fuses, and enough separate circuits that the front cannot go dark. That would be an absolute minimum of 2 ATO fuses, 4 good quality relays, and feed point as close to the alternator as I can get it. 

 

Imagine this for a moment: One fuse per side of the car. One relay for each low beam. One relay for each high beam (or each pair of high beams on a 4 headlight car). Blown fuse? One side goes out. Bad relay? One low beam, or one pair of high beams goes out. Either way, it is no worse than a burned out bulb.

 

On a big 4-headlight American car where I was not concerned about weight or bulk, I might make it more elaborate just to reduce load on the relays and the fuses.

 

The only real possibility for the whole mess to go out, assuming I am tripping the relays using the original headlight wiring, is if the factory circuit breaker trips. There is no significant load on it anymore.

 

Remember with the stock setup the whole front WILL go dark if the breaker trips. Yes, it will try to come back on, but whatever short or overload tripped it will still be there. It may go right back off. A clued-in driver might hit the dimmer switch, and that might take the short or overload out of the circuit and make the headlights stay on.... or not.

 

 

 

Edited by Bloo (see edit history)
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Here's another factor that's often overlooked: these cars (talking first generation here) are over 50 years old.  How many of you have thoroughly cleaned all the myriad electrical connections under the hood and in the main harness harnesses?  How many of you have pulled the heater box to clean and lube the blower?  How about the windshield wiper motor?  Window motors?  Light sockets?  Power seat?

 

The point is not to chastise or assert some level of OCD to which you should aspire, but to remind you that every corroded connector, burnt wire. and shaft that doesn't turn smoothly sucks additional power.  50 years ago you would have seen 13.5 V at your headlights; now you're lucky to get 13.  When the car was new, the blower motor drew 15A; now it might be 17.  And so on.

 

What we've got here is an electrical system that was barely on the edge of adequate to begin with, and now it's being taxed even harder.  It might not be the dumbest thing you ever did to your car to give it a little R&R.

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I agree. I separated the top bulkhead connector, and every terminal has white corrosion on them. I think a dremel with a small brass brush should make quick work of them. After I found that burned charge wire and start wire, I decided I had better touch every single wire and terminal on the car. I'd rather put the work in now in my driveway, than on the side of the road.

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