what motor do i have please help

[terry1985]

i have just recently bought a 1952 chevy truck and it came with a motor in it and im trying to figure out what it is from 302 to 350 i got the casting codes 3970010 and date stamp of j198 and all what was left of pad stamping was V100KS anyone have any ideas please help 

[1937hd45]

Just Google SBC block ID and the answer will be there. Bob 

[terry1985]

i have looked all over the net so far i keep coming up short

 

[Mark Shaw]

3970010 Small Block V8 1969 302, 4 bolt, Camaro Z28

 

from:  https://www.chevyhardcore.com/news/reference-chevy-engine-block-casting-numbers/

[terry1985]

so the motor is the 302?

 

[mike6024]

Sounds like good news. 302 from a '69 Z28 Camaro.

[terry1985]

don't those sit around 370 hp

 

[Phillip Cole]

12 hours ago, terry1985 said:

don't those sit around 370 hp

 

Listed as 290 hp, but tuned properly could easily make 370 or more like 400 plus.

 

Terry1985,

Could be a 302 or a 350.

From Camaro Research Group:

"The 3970010 casting was only used during the latter half of 69 Camaro production (for 302 and 350 applications), but the block continued to be produced throughout the 1970's for 2-bolt and 4-bolt 350 applications. It is one of the most common Chevrolet engine blocks."

You really need to decipher the stamp pad. Try dusting it with talcum powder .

If it is a Z28 set up, those motors were high revving and wouldn't work all that well in a truck... unless you plan to race it.

Edited December 25, 2018 by Phillip Cole
More information (see edit history)

[lump]

NO, that casting number does NOT necessarily indicate that you have a 302. It is one of the most common casting numbers for small block Chevy V8 engines from 1969 well into the 70's. It is the same block used for the ultra common 350 V8. In researching the casting number book I wrote years ago, I learned a lot about Chevrolet casting numbers. 

 

Keep in mind that 302, 327, and 350 Chevy V8 engines all used a 4" bore block. The thing that made a typical 350 block into a 302 was a special crankshaft, with a shorter stroke. The engine used the same size rods, but pistons with a lower wrist pin position, so the piston would still rise up to the top of the cylinder bore, making good compression. Thus, the same bore with a shorter stroke resulted in fewer cubic inches...along with a much faster revving engine...perfect for trans-am style racing. 

 

The crank casting number ended in "1178," if I recall correctly. But you can't see that casting number with the oil pan in place. However, a potential visual clue on the outside is to look at the flywheel flange on the crank. The special 302 crank had a shape on the flange-end of the crank like a pie with one piece cut out, whereas the 350 and other cranks had more complex shapes.

 

The 302 crank was also forged instead of cast, as were some other small blocks. The way to spot a forged Chevy crankshaft is to look at the parting line from the original mold that was used to manufacture the crank. A cast crank will have a simple seam mark there. Forged cranks had a much wider parting line, leaving evidence of it being ground down. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by lump (see edit history)

[George Smolinski]

12 hours ago, Mark Shaw said:

3970010 Small Block V8 1969 302, 4 bolt, Camaro Z28

 

from:  https://www.chevyhardcore.com/news/reference-chevy-engine-block-casting-numbers/

Wrong. The Z28 302 was an 010 block, but the engine ID suffix code for the Z28 engine is DZ, not KS. He may be mis-reading the code - HS instead of KS. In that case it's a 255 hp 350 in a Nova or Chevelle.

[Phillip Cole]

1 hour ago, George Smolinski said:

Wrong. The Z28 302 was an 010 block, but the engine ID suffix code for the Z28 engine is DZ, not KS. He may be mis-reading the code - HS instead of KS. In that case it's a 255 hp 350 in a Nova or Chevelle.

Yes, DZ for a 69 Z.  That block for a 302 would be late production April or May. I checked The Lime Book and no KS, 2 digit code. Plenty of 3 digit with KS, mostly 350 trucks. Are you sure about the pad stamp?

[Bill Harmatuk]

Ole Lump knows something about a small block.!!

He knows a thing or few, because he's seen a thing or few.

 

I've got a sweet, numbers matching, 1968, 327, that came out of a 68 Impala. Factory 4 barrel and dual exhaust.

Ive been hanging on to it for almost 30 years now.

 

Bill H

[cheezestaak2000]

didn't the Z28 engine have solid lifters? that would clear it up.

 

[terry1985]

When i bought the truck is was mainly for the truck not the motor itself, because i had a 350 sitting there waiting to be put in it. But i wasn't expecting it to run so good  when it was started up, but the fella i bought it off of had no clue what the motor came out of as well. If the motor didn't run so smooth and good i would have gone straight into my 350 sitting there, but if there's a  chance that its a 302 id love to have that in there more the a basic 350. I think that would be more of a talk piece at a car show then a 350 so i really do appreciate everyone's help on here, but i'm still at a loss to what it is. I was out there for hours last night getting numbers off of everything i could to see what parts were off of what but that didn't get me much further into this is there differences between a 350 and a 302 that i could compare to looking between both of the motors to see if its a 350 or 302? 

[Phillip Cole]

If it doesn't have a engine code suffix of DZ (you listed KS), then it is not a 69 302.  How about checking the stamp pad and date code.  The date code you listed is a 1968.  Chevy did not use the 3970010 block until 1969.  Also, it looks like you left out a number (or possibly numbers) in the V100KS.  

[terry1985]

 the date code i got on the back passenger's side of the motor was the j198 and the block casting i got is 3970010 on the drivers back side the pad stamp i got told that it was missing digits from it so just made life harder finding it out 

[George Smolinski]

The J198 may be for 1978, not 1968. I believe the 010 block was cast/used through 1979 & I think there is a KS suffix code is 1979 also except it would be CKS.

[terry1985]

is there a way to tell with any of the parts on the motor between the two maybe

[lump]

The 3970010 block was new for 1969. According to all the documentation we can find, nearly all of those first-year blocks were 4-bolt main configuration. They were extensively used in heavy duty and high performance applications...including trucks. This block used the new large-journal main bearing size of 2.45", as opposed to the former small journal 2.30" size. 

On 12/24/2018 at 8:02 PM, terry1985 said:

don't those sit around 370 hp

 

290 hp for the 67-69 Z28 302 engine. 

[lump]

Sorry for incomplete information earlier, but this can be a very drawn-out process sometimes. Yet, with so many partial and confusing bits of info showing up in this thread, I suppose I should have been more thorough before, or just stayed out of it. Allow me to try again.  

 

Personally, after years of dealing with questions about Chevy V8 casting numbers and engine identification, I have developed low confidence in the stamped numbers on the engine pad, UNLESS I am absolutely certain that the numbers are original and not replaced. Engine rebuilders usually mill the deck surface of the blocks, removing original numbers in the process. Sometimes they stamp their own numbers in place, for warranty purposes. Moreover, many people have been restamping engine numbers for years. Some to mislead collectors; others because they are trying to replace the correct original numbers after a block has been decked. 

 

People who are really good at identifying correct original Chevy V8 engines don't really rely on any ONE number to convince them what an engine is. Rather, they break down all of the numbers found all over an engine, and compare/contrast them against each other. This way they can "match" production date sequences of multiple components, eventually ending up with a more complete story on exactly which engine they are looking at.

 

The stamped Engine Assembly Code number that you reported, "V100KS" doesn't fit the usual system, as we understand it. Normally, there would be 4 numbers between the letters, while you show only 3. Normally, the alphabetic character in front designates an engine plant. (A "V" or an "F" indicate the Flint, Michigan engine plant, while a "T" would mean Tonawanda, NY). Then after that first alpha character, the first TWO numerals identify the month (in this case, "10," I suppose). Then normally the next TWO numerals indicate the production day of the month. So if you had reported something like, "V1004KS," I would have decoded that to mean October the fourth, of whatever year that the casting date code indicated. Yet your numbers do not look like the type typically stamped into a block pad by fraudsters. They would have stamped in a 2-letter code which indicated a rare and valuable block, such as the "DZ" for a 302, or other codes for a high performance Corvette block. So, we can't be sure.  

 

Keep in mind that 3970010 blocks came out in early 1969 calendar year. So early Z28 Camaros of the 1969 model year did not use that block.  Rather, they were equipped with the 3956618 block, which also used large-journal main bearings, but was a completely different casting. 

 

The casting DATE CODE which you reported: "J198," would indicate the nineteenth day of the 10th month (since "J" is the 10th character of the alphabet), while the "8" would indicate the 8th year of a decade. But since we believe that the 3970010 block didn't debut until April or May of 1969, then most folks would say that the "J198" production-year-code number must represent the 1979 model year. Yet respected published sources indicate that the 3970010 block was discontinued after about 1976. Interesting, isn't it? 

 

Moreover, since our sources indicate that the 3970010 block debuted in about April of 1969, an October-dated 3970010 block seemingly could not have been used in a 1969 model vehicle (GM factories tended to switch over from one model year of production to the next model year in July each year. Hence, an October of 1969 component would normally have been installed in a 1970 model year vehicle.) Yet in the 1969 model year of the Camaro, we have an exception. GM introduced an all-new generation of the F-body Camaro and Firebird for the 1970 model year, but these totally-new vehicles were not yet ready in the fall of 1969, so Chevrolet kept right on selling 1969-design Camaro and Firebird cars well into 1970, titled as 1969 cars. (Today many people describe 1970 F-body cars as "1970-1/2," although GM didn't do so back then).

 

Confused? Of course. We all are, whenever we try to rely on ONE bit of evidence as to the history of a Chevy V8 engine from the 1950's through the early 1990's. That's why restorers rely on ALL the numbers, as a package.

 

When the engine is still with the car it is claimed to have been factory installed in, we first find the production date of the vehicle. Then we look for the casting date of the engine block. The block has to have been cast before the car was built, obviously. Then we look at the date which the raw block casting was manufactured into a complete engine (the stamped number on the block pad, "V100KS" in your case). The block had to be cast first, then machined and assembled, all before the car could be built. Then we find DATE CODE numbers on the intake manifold (between the carb and the distributor, usually), and on the carburetor, the distributor, the cylinder heads, the coil, the exhaust manifolds (on the back side...impossible to read unless removed), the alternator, the water pump, etc, etc, etc. All those bolt-on components had to be produced before the casting date of the block, which had to be before the assembly date of the vehicle, and before the assembly date of the engine. 

 

By finding all those date codes, we can make an educated guess (and that's all, at this stage), as to which components are original to that engine. Then we check for the casting NUMBERS on those components. Cylinder heads are a good indicator, and if their date codes precede the engine build date by at least a week or two, but not more than a month or so, then they might be the original units. There are lots of heads in any given production year, and they are very different. If the date codes on the heads match, figure out which heads you have, and you probably can ID the engine. But don't rely on one, or even two things. Figure out which heads and any other major (original) components the engine has, compare that to the letter codes stamped into the pad on the deck surface. Soon, a solid picture of exactly what engine you have will begin to emerge. 

 

 

 

[lump]

I should add another reason I don't put too much stock in the stamped-in numbers on a Chevy V8 block. There have been a lot of examples of stamped in numbers that just didn't fit the code system that everyone uses, over the many years I have been around the Chevy casting number world. We tend to forget that these same blocks and other engine components were used in many non-automotive applications, all over the world. Many codes that don't appear in our little code books were likely used in all kinds of mysterious applications. We must keep in mind that GM was not producing numbered commemorative collectibles, with an eye towards making it easy for restorers some day. They were producing tens of thousands of engines for anyone who would buy them, in the most cost-effective method they could think of. They didn't paint them perfectly, and they didn't keep track of any production codes, etc, UNLESS that information might help GM with warranty issues, or etc. They intentionally destroyed much information, because it was too expensive to keep and maintain it. 

[lump]

I forgot to mention that I found it interesting that your reported date code, "J189," also matched the first two NUMBERS in your stamped production code numbers. Both indicate October. 

 

Finally, lest I forget:

For those folks who look at the deck area on the passenger side of the front of their Chevy V8 engine to find the numbers stamped there... Sometime in 1969 (I think I remember that date correctly), GM moved the VIN number which had previously been stamped into the deck pad on the block near the production code numbers. It then began to appear vertically on a rough-cast surface down near the oil filter boss, on the side of the surface which mated against the bellhousing. This was done to make life tougher on car thieves, so they couldn't merely deck the block surface to eliminate the number, with the appearance of merely decking the block to eliminate warpage, etc. 

[terry1985]

thank you for the very descriptive information and i'm thinking it has been decked and the vin doesn't show up on the pad stamp so i will be crawling in there and taking a look around by the oil filter tomorrow  

[lump]

I'm not so sure it's been decked, but time will tell. 

 

As for the VIN number being down by the oil filter, I've attached a photo from my book. The "C" notation has an arrow pointing to the rough-cast vertical area where the VIN is probably stamped. It can be hard to see, and even harder to read correctly. Use a solvent to wash away the grease, such as BrakKleen. And get a flashlight and wire brush under the car with you. 

 

 

Edited December 27, 2018 by lump (see edit history)

[lump]

I will observe that you almost certainly do not have a 1969 302 cubic inch Z28 Camaro. Most such engines that I have examined are not 302's at all. The 3970010 block is an extremely common 4" bore small block with large main journals. The only ingredient which would render this as a 302 would be that special crankshaft, last four digits of the casting number are "1178." This forged steel crank has a stroke of only 3". THAT, coupled with special pistons, is what makes it a 302. 

 

To check and see if you have a 302 crank in your engine without pulling the oil pan, look for the round flange on the flywheel flange, with one "pie-piece" wedge shape removed. As far as I know, the 302 crank is the only LARGE JOURNAL crank with that flywheel flange shape. (NOTE: earlier 327 engines used that same flange, but they were small main journal cranks, and would not normally fit a 3970010 block.) 

 

See photo below from my friend Al Colvin's book, "CHEVROLET BY THE NUMBERS, 1965-69"

Edited December 27, 2018 by lump (see edit history)

[lump]

By the way, here are two photos from my book, showing the difference in appearance between a forged steel crank, and a cast iron Chevy crankshaft. The large parting line is your visual key. First photo is a cast crank, with narrow parting line, and second photo is the forged steel crankshaft. 

[lump]

Oh, and I should have added a couple final bits of info: The font characters which GM used in the small cast date codes can be very confusing. The "3" and the "6" and the "8" and the "9" can often be very difficult to tell apart from one another. I wish they would have used a font with more distinct character features, such as a "3" with a flat top, and an "8" with a much smaller circle on top of a larger bottom one, etc. As it is, the rough casting areas where these numbers appear often fill in with excess metal, making it hard to distinguish a "3" from an "8," for example. So be sure to examine them very carefully. 

 

Additionally, these numbers were produced by human workers, and mistakes happen. I often went on tour in the CPC Norwood Assembly Plant here in Ohio, where 3rd generation Camaro and Firebird cars were being produced back in the 1980's. Because of my intense interest in casting numbers, stamped production numbers, and other production codes, I was often taken to the area where engine codes were being stamped into finished engines before they were installed into cars. Talking with the folks who manually stamped the numbers in place, I heard stories of many different errors that had happened over the years. And once, while I was standing there, a guy who was stamping numbers was talking to me and made a mistake. He quickly turned the gang-stamp over and stamped through his error, obscuring the incorrect code. Then he quickly changed characters in the gang-punch which held the individual stamps together, and then restamped the correct code next to the mistaken mess. I recall chuckling to myself that someday, some "expert" is going to have his mind blown when he sees that mess on the engine pad, and will likely start pronouncing the engine to have been faked or something. 😊 LOL. 

 

Cheers, and happy holidays to you!