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1946 dodge coupe Fluid Drive clutch needs replaced


Brooklyn Beer

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I have inherited a 1946 Dodge coupe, fluid drive car, that has bad clutch chatter due to a leaking rear main on the engine.  Pilot bushing also screaming like a banshee at times.  Was going to drop off and get clutch done, rear main replaced, but the minute I mention FLUID DRIVE, not a tranny shop within 100 miles of Fort Worth wants to even look at it.  Is doing a clutch in a fluid drive car any more difficult then a standard 3 speed? I have literally bought every part needed from release bearing to pilot bearing to clutch to make it simple yet it is like I am asking them to change the detonator on an A bomb.  Love the car.  So with this I ask, how hard is it to install a modern automatic or standard in the car and just where should I look for parts, instructions, etc, if I decide to go this route?

dodge 2.jpg

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It is no more difficult than changing the parts in a standard shift car.

I did my 47 Chrysler - clutch disc, throw-out bearing , etc - in my garage with no special tools, etc

In my car's case there was a Fluid coupling (looks like a torque converter) which rides on the transmission input shaft. But once it was removed

then everything else is just like a standard shift car. Removing the coupling just involved removing the transmission and the coupling.

So I would try to keep it original as it looks like a nice original car and modifying it, in my opinion, will hurt it - aesthetically and value-wise.

Also, if I am incorrect on the Dodge Fluid Drive system being similar to the Chrysler one someone will correct me - hopefully without taking me to task.

Joe

This is from the P15-D24.com website: I would recommend you take a look there, too

"Fluid Drive
 
Fluid Drive was a $25.00 option available on the Doges, DeSotos and Chryslerss. Besides the cool looking Fluid Drive script on your rear deck, what did you get? Fluid Drive is a torque converter, that is, it converts engine torque and transfers it to the transmission via a fluid medium. The idea is simple. Imagine two electric fans facing each other. If you turn on one fan the air pressure created will cause the blades of the facing fan to spin. In this example, the fluid medium is air. The Dodge Fluid Drive works in a similar manner. The torque converter coupling is bolted to the flywheel. Inside the torque converter coupling are two "fans" facing each one another. The entire torque converter is filled with a special fluid. As the engine turns one set of fan blades (called vanes) is driven, forcing the fluid against the vanes of the facing unit. This causes that unit to turn which drives a standard clutch and pressure plate assembly. The power is then transmitted down the drivetrain to the rear wheels just like the standard drivetrain. The advantage of Fluid Drive is there is no direct mechanical connection between the engine and drive train. This translates into a very smooth power transfer and resulting smooth ride. It also provides some unique and interesting features. For example, to shift into gear you would put the clutch in just like a regular three speed. However if you are idling at a traffic light you can let the clutch out and the car won’t stall! That’s because at idle not enough energy is being transferred from the front vanes to the rear vanes. As you step on the gas the pressure increases and the rear vanes start to spin, transferring energy to the drive train. You would then shift gears like a normal three speed. You can also start in any gear. For example, you could start in third, even though the acceleration would be slow. In some ways, Fluid Drive is like a very simple automatic transmission. The units are essentially maintenance free. The only service requirement is to maintain the correct level of fluid in the torque converter coupling. A special access port is located on the passenger side floorboard on the side of the transmission hump. Remove the access door and bell housing cap. Turn the engine over until the filler bolt lines up. It is a good idea to stuff a rag around the opening so you can drop the filler bolt in the flywheel housing. The service manual recommends using a magnetic socket for the same reason. Be very careful as you fill the unit. Any spillage will always find its way to your clutch disk! After filling, make sure the filler bolt is secure with no leakage. The factory fluid was a Mopar #10 Fluid Drive fluid. Unfortunately this is no longer available. The original fluid was an ISO 32 (10W) with an anti-wear additive and an anti-foam additive which was needed to break up the foam which develops as the vanes turn in the torque converter (Fluid Drive Coupling). The non-foaming characteristics are critical because if air bubbles form the fluid will compress and power can not be transferred. Today, two replacement fluids are readily available. Automatic transmission fluid (ATF) is an ISO 32 fluid. However DEXRON ATF contains a seal swell additive which may swell old seals in Fluid Drives and cause a failure An alternative ATF fluid is Ford Type F fluid. It does not contain the seal swell additive. The best replacement is Universal Tractor Fluid #134. This is an ISO 32 fluid with all the properties of an automatic transmission fluid for wear, heat dissipation, and anti foam. Available at most NAPA stores in 1 and 5 gallon quantities. Obviously if you have a farm/tractor supply outlet nearby they will have it. Universal Tractor Fluid #134 has other positive characteristics including added shear strength for moving bevel cut gears under high loads similar to what is found in the old Fluid Drive transmissions. Many of today’s modern manual transmissions use the #134 fluid, not a gear lube, as the factory fill. The biggest repair problem with Fluid Drive is seal leakage where the transmission input shaft mates into the housing. Any leakage will quickly ruin the clutch disk. Repair kits are available but difficult to find. So are experienced repair personnel. Using the correct replacement fluid can go a long way in extending the service life of your unit. Otherwise the units are factory sealed. Carburetors used on Fluid Drive cars are different than the non-Fluid Drive models. The Fluid Drive adds some drag on the engine and a dashpot is used to slow throttle closing, thus preventing engine stalling. The adjustment of the dashpot and replacement of Fluid Drive seals are addressed in detail in the factory service manual. Lastly the same manual three speed transmission (Type C) is used on both Fluid and non-Fluid Drive applications with one part change. The Fluid Drive transmission has a slightly longer input shaft to accommodate the greater depth of the coupling. The shafts can easily be replaced making a standard 3 speed into a fluid drive version and vice versa.

 

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Maybe the fluid drive bellows seal is leaking a little bit and not the rear main causing oil contamination of the disc?  Or maybe both..

The bellows seal in the FD is right next to the clutch disc... the 6" thick FD coupling blocks most rear main seal oil getting directly onto the clutch disc ....

There are two pilot bushings in a FD coupling too.

Careful diagnosis is a must doing this job right to fix all leaks.

The FD coupling holds 9+ quarts of fluid.

FD Coupling.jpg

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Trans and clutch cover and disc are removed just like a 55 chevy.... 

The clutch driven plate ...part of the FD... same as a flywheel... don't even mess with it unless there is oil leaking out of the FD coupling or the face is scored or has hard spots...just clean it up well.

Find out for where the oil contamination is coming from if that is the case. Rear main or FD coupling.

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4 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Thanks.    Looks like I will give it a shot.  Been 30 years since the last time I did a transmission. Will get it up on 4 jack stands and go from there. Have a fluid drive manual on the way and a shop manual. Any hints on dropping this compared to say a super T 10, 4 speed? 

Dropping the trans is fairly easy. It should take around an hour.

1- Disconnect the driveshaft from the transmission

2- Disconnect the shift linkages and emergency brake cable bracket - (I leave the cable connected to the bracket)

3- If there are any electrical connections to solenoids, etc remove and LABEL them so as not to miswire later

4- Remove speedo cable from tranny

5- There should be 4 bolts that hold the tranny to the bellhousing. Put a floor jack under the tranny and remove the bolts

keeping a little upward pressure on the tranny with the jack. Then slide the floor jack and tranny toward the rear of the car. It should slide out easily.

If it doesn't then either lift or lower the floor jack accordingly to relieve the pressure on the input shaft of the tranny.

6- Remove the bellhousing from the engine - then everything is accessible.

Oh yeah. All Chrysler products of that era (I'm pretty sure) have a removable floor pan that just bolts in. I suggest you pull the carpet back (or remove it) and remove the bolt-in floor pan as this will make it so much easier to work from the top instead of from the bottom of the car.

I would suggest that while the floor pan is out you check the brake master cylinder for leaking and if you wanted to remove/rebuild it NOW would be the time.

 

Joe

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OK, moving right along. I am removing the floor pan and only 4 screws snapped off. The pan is in pretty good shape all things considered. Just some holes around gas pedal. Some time ago someone had cut notches out to allow the pan to slide back from both clutch and brake pedal so the pedals themselves don't need removed. 

Edited by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)
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Floor pan off exposing an interesting sight. I knew the clutch pedal had lost the return spring and become disengaged with the fork rod but I was not expecting to see the fork laying on it's side and attached to nothing. Is it supposed to pop off this easy from the release bearing ? and is it supposed to be in between the two linkage rods? The ball pivot is intact. Fork doesn't look broken. I wonder what awaits under the bell housing.  Tomorrow I will remove the starter and drive shaft. 

Dodge clutch 1.jpg

dodge clutch 2.jpg

Edited by Brooklyn Beer (see edit history)
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No the fork should NOT be on its side. It looks as if the fork has been seperated from the throwout bearing. 

When the clutch fork and return spring are attached there should be about 1/4" play where the fork rod goes into the fork. You can adjust the play by turning the threaded end of the fork rod.

As far as where the fork should be you will know when you reattach it to the throwout bearing and assemble everything- it can only be in one position.

One other thing - there should be a rubber or leather seal that attaches to the bellhousing and then the fork goes through it. That is there to keep "stuff" out.

It attaches to a rectangular metal frame - looks like yours is missing - and then that attaches to the bellhousing in the opening where the fork goes into it. Look at the pic and look at the clutck fork and you will see the seal.

Try Andy Bernbaum for those parts or maybe they can tell you where to get them

Clutchlinkage.jpg

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Thanks Joe. I was wondering if some sort of dust cover was missing.  I have have the release bearing and sleeve. All the clutch parts came from Andy.  I will now search for the boot.  Should the fork come out of place that easy from the release bearing if the main spring comes off like is what happened in my case.

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21 minutes ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

So when new clutch is installed I will work the fork through the bell housing as I install or is the fork installed after the bell housing is in place?

Before I try to answer that I wanted to tell you some other things. This is all going by memory so bear with me...

As far as the bellhousing removal goes I believe besides the 4 main bolts there may be(2)7/16" long bolts that go up through the bellhousing and into the engine block from the bottom. They should be above the crossmember - just look underneath. Also, there are 2 brackets that mount to the housing that are attached to the engine block so they need to be disconnected. AND when you remove the 2 bolts that hold the rear motor mounts to the crossmember you need to support the rear of the engine with a floor jack or whatever you deem suitable otherwise the engine will drop down and - well you know. 

I would also, at this time replace the rubber upper/lower rear motor mounts you are removing because they get old/brittle and squished. Might as well do it now. AND I would look at the front motor mount as the same thing happens to that one, too. It is located under the water pump and it is bolted to the engine mount bracket. see attachment.

As far as your question - bellhousing goes on - fork with throwout bearing goes on and through the seal. You can put the bearing on either before or after the fork is in the seal. You will have room to work with it. 

For aligning the clutch disc I used a piece of, I believe, 1/4" (I can't really remember the exact size) PVC pipe inserted and then snugged everything up. Bernbaums sells a clutch aligning tool for $9.00. 

If you want to go my route just fit a piece of PVC pipe into the clutch disc before you mount it to see what size you need. 

motor mount.jpg

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Got it.  The rear mounts I checked and they look very good. No cracks or splits but will price new ones.  Guessing change the front after everything is bolt back together and lift then.  Saw the brackets.  Everything looks pretty easy to get too with floor removed.  I have the alignment tool.  So the fork is supposed to be between the two linkage rods?

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I will have to take a look at my car to see how the fork is positioned but I am not home until tomorrow morning.

Do you suspect that the linkages are not connected correctly? I think they can only go one way.

Like I said before - once the fork is put into place that is where it will be - it cannot go anywhere else.

 

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No, I think they are fine.  I drove the car for 3 months as they are with not an issue regarding shifting.  Just that when I stood the fork up to its proper place it didn't seem like much clearance between the linkage and fork. Don't see any place on the linkage or the fork where they were rubbing either. I did not get a chance to look at it before it went blewy.

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Received the shop manual. They say to remove the front of the drive shaft but nothing about rear.  Then disconnect trans and move back and down.  I am guessing by this phrase that the drive shaft is a flange mount with nothing of the shaft extending into the tail of the trans. So the shaft can be pushed to the side with no screwing around of the rear.  Rubber dust boots on the U-joints look in fine shape.

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Okay. I looked under my car tonight and the fork does go between the shifter rods. 

The drive shaft is a flange mount and after removing the 4 screws that hold the u-joint to the tranny you can put a screwdriver in between the u-joint and where it mounts to the tranny and pry it back. There is enough play so that you can then pull the driveshaft off the tranny and swing it out of the way. There is no need to remove/disconnect the rear u-joint - unless you want to replace it. Be careful that the u-joint end caps don't fall off - they sometimes do - while you are fiddling around with the driveshaft. If they do come off make sure that when you put them back on that all of the needle bearings are in place.

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Thanks.  Productive tonight till dangerous thunderstorms rolled in so called it quits with driveshaft disconnected, linkage undone and emergency brake cable disconnected.  The drive shaft was a bear to get over the bolts so if having a good amount spring pressure is any indicator of the condition of things under the boots I have plenty.  But lots of leakage from the rear main of the tranny so that will need looked at 

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OK, weather permited a little work time before arthritis and cold feet chased me in.  Transmission is out and I found some issues right away.  I do have a new release bearing with sleeve arriving today to replace this one but being I have never worked on a transmission like this before so I have no clue what this thin wall sleeve is all about.   Looks broken off to me from the front of the transmission. But what do I know.  The other bushings stayed in the fluid drive unit. How will I remove those?

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That thin walled sleeve houses the throw-out bearing. You will have to have the new throw-out bearing pressed on to that sleeve. It is not "attached" to the transmission.

When assembled the bearing end goes towards the clutch and the other end gets attached to the clutch fork. I believe there should be clips that hold the sleeve to the fork. Then the input shaft of the tranny goes through the sleeve/bearing and into the clutch disc/plate.

Joe

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OK, one other thing when going over transmission, I noticed a little wobble in the shaft.  Not much but some.  I have read a little how the noise I was getting could be from the output shaft bearing so since I will have the retainer off how hard a job without tearing down the trans?  Can it be done from the front?

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Back to the Dodge today after a bout with the flu and some crappy weather.  Can't seem to get the Bell housing to budge.  Motor is lifted 1/2 inch off the rear mounts. Bolts removed.  Bell housing supported with floor jack.  Motor supported by wood cribbing.  2 bolts on passenger side removed.  2 bolts removed from bracket to motor removed.  Bracket not removed from bell housing. Top two bolts removed. Starter removed. 2 bolts on drivers side removed , clutch linkage removed, 2 bolts from bracket to motor removed but not bracket from bell housing.  Am I missing anything?  I mean it feels like I am

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11 hours ago, Brooklyn Beer said:

Back to the Dodge today after a bout with the flu and some crappy weather.  Can't seem to get the Bell housing to budge.  Motor is lifted 1/2 inch off the rear mounts. Bolts removed.  Bell housing supported with floor jack.  Motor supported by wood cribbing.  2 bolts on passenger side removed.  2 bolts removed from bracket to motor removed.  Bracket not removed from bell housing. Top two bolts removed. Starter removed. 2 bolts on drivers side removed , clutch linkage removed, 2 bolts from bracket to motor removed but not bracket from bell housing.  Am I missing anything?  I mean it feels like I am

Did you you remove the lower clutch pan cover 1st? That and the bell housing are 2 separate pieces and you need to remove the lower pan first.

Also, because there are guide pins for the bellhousing sometimes you may need to use a large flathead screwdriver and wedge it between the engine block and the bellhousing and tap the screwdriver in with a hammer (gently) to back the housing off of the guide pins.

Also, if you have a jack under the bellhousing you may have to relieve the pressure from the jack on the bellhousing so it is not cocked.

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Had to take an extended break on it what with bad weather and a bout of the flu.  I changed the rear mounts and reattached the bell housing.  Just dropping the clutch and fluid drive out the bottom.  Clutch is shot, cracked to pieces.  Am going to get plate resurfaced and have to figure out best way to get that off. Also need to know the way to get the pilot bushing out as well as the two other bushings in the fluid drive unit.  Any hints?

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There are extractors/pullers made specifically for pilot bushings.  Sometimes you can fill the bushing with grease and then inset a dowel wood or steel and hit on the endith with a big hammer.  The grease will usually fill the space ahead of the bushing and push it out of the flywheel.

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Is the pilot bushing supposed to match the tip of the input shaft in size or no. The replacement I got from Bernbaum is easily a 3/4 inch diameter internal while the tip of the input shaft on the trans is 9/16.  I have some 1" dowel I am going to turn down to do the grease method.  Also on the top bushing I presume I have to remove the large nut that holds the friction plate on to press that one out ?

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I just received the new upper bushing from motor city speed works and I had also bought another pilot bushing as a matched set. This pilot bushing slides on the input shaft nicely and is the correct 9/16. The center bronze colored. Yet in my fluid drive unit is the size larger pictured on left side of the picture. The far right bushing is the upper shaft bushing. Now I am really confused.  If there is a pilot bushing already installed and I remove it then the new one that fits the input tip will rattle around.  Also the new one that fits the tip doesn't feel like it can slide into what is already there. (They forgot to put one in ?) Like one was not installed previously.  This could go a ways to explaining why the bearing retainer broke.  Now before I go and turn down the new correct pilot bushing that has the proper inside dimensions a couple 100ths on the outside to slide into what already is installed in the fluid coupler, can anyone give me some type of logical answer as to why I have 2 different size pilot bushings and neither one will work though ordered for the same car ?

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The differences in size is about a 100th but can't tell till I put a new battery in the mic tomorrow. Factory size on my new (bronze) pilot bushing seem to match up but the hole they are supposed to slide is just under a 100th smaller in the FD unit.  New bushing is factory correct .815 while the whole it is supposed to go into is around .725.  I am going to to super clean the FD hole tomorrow and double check. But seeing this tells me there was not a pilot bushing installed when I removed it for this very same reason I found I do suspect.  Anyone else ever come across this?

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