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Then and now: where did these prewar cars go?


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This photo was taken on the Mayfield used car lot in Los Angeles in the late 40's or early 50's.  They specialzed in older cars and rented out cars to movie studios as well.   Numerous magazine articles have been written about this lot over the years with other pictures.       

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On 12/16/2018 at 4:16 PM, 60FlatTop said:

In the early 1970's Clarence Sharp was a good friend who owned the Selden roadster that eventually went to Pebble Beach.

Here is a picture of Clarence, standing, and his sidekick, Skyrocket, seated.

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Harrah got his Selden roadster from Williamson, NY and there was one in Arlington, VT ages ago.  By any chance was Clarence's Selden the VT car? 

 

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Clarence's car was always a Rochester, NY car. Here's an older article:

https://autoweek.com/article/car-news/1911-selden-model-40-r-varsity-roadster-turning-heads

 

Clarence had a Rochester paper from 1958 with a human interest story about the car and its history that he liked to show. I was in my early 20's and just got a new girlfriend, my Wife now, and we stopped by his place on Atlantic Avenue where he would be out puttering about with the Selden and the Brush. He gave my Wife a pair of oriental planters figurines that sit on our kitchen window sill today. He liked her but she wasn't quite as wild as the previous girlfriend. Anyway he had a lot of stories about his cars and Rochester. He ran one of those back lot car lots on clunker row for a long time. I met him through car dealing with my Grandfather. He always had a row of partly paid for cars in the back. I liked that place.

 

I can walk to George Selden's house in Clarkson, NY in about 20 minutes from my place. The old swindler even got a historic marker in front of the place. Selden was a patent attorney who saw the inevitability of the automobile and applied for patent in the early 1880's. As the technology and feasibility progressed he amended his patent to keep it current and open. Then sealed the deal, gaining rights as the industry blossomed. He had quite a battle with Ford and if anyone sat him down for a discussion about building a car he would have been SOL. 

 

Shortly after the Montreal Protocol in 1988 I was granted two patents on refrigeration recovery and recycling  apparatus so I have a pretty good insight on how Selden did his dance with the patent office.

 

The car is still around and Bob Mahoney used to show up on the Forum. I always try to catch a glimpse of an old car around his house when I drive down that way.

 

Here's the car now.

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There are 2 Otto roadsters - there are nice articles on them in the May-June 1959 issue of Antique Automobile.  One was owned by Joseph Kurtz in PA, and had been bought new by his brother.  It's still in PA, participating these days in HCCA tours.  The other was restored & owned by Bill Kurtz of Pittsford, NY, who had bought it from its second owner, a Mr. Cole.  I don't know where this car is now, but I'm sure the owner of the other Otto does.

1959-June_AntiqueAutomobile_Otto_Kurtz.jpg

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On 12/20/2018 at 3:28 PM, Paul Dobbin said:

We all know of really old cars stored, but not for sale.  Remember that someday somebody else

will buy it because they asked at the right time. 

At one time in the 1990's I tried to buy a 1912 Regal from a retired Judge.  No Sale.

Last I heard his son kept it an many other cars until he got old & sick, then they were sold.

 

Paul. I was always under the impression that the only known correct and authentic Regal Speedster was the 1911 that we owned. I'm aware of a few that were built up from existing chassis. Also, it did not have a big engine. The Regal underslung used Regal's small 20hp engine. Here's the one we had, which has since been sold and has gone overseas.

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28 minutes ago, 1937hd45 said:

GREAT car West! That makes Two Regal Underslungs in Europe now. The unrestored one that lived here in Connecticut was at Pebble Beach this year. My Grandfather was a chauffeur and drove one @ 1912, I've got some great photos of him in it.

 

Bob 

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I guess you are aware there is at least one in New Zealand. It was restored in the 1950s/'60s and since its owner died quite a few years ago I don't know where it is. It was blue, if you run across a photo of it.

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Guys  : I am hoping that the "little guy" in the picture Guy took, survived, thrived, and is still enjoying old cars. Perhaps he is yet in California, driving about in the warm sun right now. HAPPY NEW YEAR to him and all !!!                                                          Just about exactly the same age as the "li'l' driver"',     -  Old Cadillac Carl 

Edited by C Carl
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West Peterson said in regard to the 1912 Regal:  Paul. I was always under the impression that the only known correct and authentic Regal Speedster was the 1911 that we owned. I'm aware of a few that were built up from existing chassis. Also, it did not have a big engine. The Regal underslung used Regal's small 20hp engine. Here's the one we had, which has since been sold and has gone overseas. 

"Your's was an awesome car, the one I looked at I thought was a made into a Speedster from a Touring car, although I'm not sure.  I'll look for the pictures in a file for that event.  I thought it had a large displacement

4 cylinder that could be made to develop enough torque to be a good distance driver. 

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The Henry Ford Museum had a Regal Underslung Speedster in dark blue or black.  They foolishly decided it wasn't pertinent to their collection, so it was auctioned off with a number of other cars around 1979.  My parents and grandparents knew the family that bought it at that auction.  It was eventually sold and I saw it sold again at auction a couple of years ago for about $110,000.    

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4 hours ago, C Carl said:

Guys  : I am hoping that the "little guy" in the picture Guy took, survived, thrived, and is still enjoying old cars....   -  Old Cadillac Carl 

 

That was Guy Slaughter's son, so all things being equal there's a good chance he's still around even if the car is long gone.

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Thanks twin6 ! From the look of happy concentration on the young lads face, good chance his enthusiasm flourished. If indeed he is another car guy among us, it is possible he knows the fate or locaction of the Mercer. I wish my kid had caught the car bug. He became a pretty good driver after I bought him his first Cadillac, a '73, when he was 8 years old. With the adjustment range of the seat and steering wheel, we would go out on the almost empty streets at night with him driving, sitting on my lap. He caught on to parallel parking in short order, and is better at it than the old man these days. With that expression on Guy's son's face, I think he was already hooked.  -    CC 

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Back in 2014 I posted pictures of a meet held in 1949 at the Larz Anderson Museum in Brookline, MA.

 

https://forums.aaca.org/topic/243839-1948-car-show-pictures/?tab=comments#comment-1286219

 

A forum member identified the cars and many of the owners. One that stood out from the crowd and must still be around was a Packard 48 runabout with Westinghouse shocks, owner thought to be Walter Liveno from somewhere around PeekskillNY.

 

Is it still around ??

 

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52 minutes ago, twin6 said:

Yes, that 48 is alive and well, and it was owned for quite a while by Walt Levino, who lived in Peekskill, NY.  The roster page for that car, which includes ownership back to original, is here.

That's amazing that you have traced the ownership of a car over 100 years old back to the original owner !

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A few more Stanleys...  The first, from 1950,  is probably a 1906 or '07 EX; the picture is poor.  But it mentions a museum in Skaneateles NY put together by Harold Bertrand and Miss Margaret Lewis.  Seems like kind of an odd car museum partnership, and I never heard of them.

 

Next is one of those ug..., that is, distinctively-styled broughams, a Model 740 dated 1923.  Owned in 1957 by J. F. Cochran who worked for Convair in Fort Worth.  3rd is a Model CX owned by David Gabhart of Detroit in 1964.

 

And finally one of the nifty 4-passenger tourings, a Model 735 dated 1920.  This one was owned by Foster Blickenstaff in Hagerstown in 1966, and sold by him not long before before he built the non-condensing Stanley mashup which I now own.  His family doesn't know where it went.  Maybe somebody out there...?

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1964-08-24_DetroitFreePress_Gabhart.jpg

1966-06-02_HagerstownDailyMail_Blickenstaff_1920_4pt.jpg

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I did not know about the museum, but Harold Bertrand had two Packards that survive: a model 48 (1912) and a second series twin six.  The Julian mentioned in the article must be the one Harrah ended up with (I seem to recall there was only one).

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At the REVS institute in Naples Florida. Back in July of 1986 I was at a show in Massachusetts looking at the 1932 Twin Six Custom Dietrich Pheaton owned by Dick Dewey at the time. While pondering the rear door window that flips up and out when the door was opened, a gentleman came up to me and asked if I liked the window set up. I said yes, it’s very cool.  He then went on to explain that while he was a college student at the university of Michigan he designed that window and door hinge for his senior project  in the automotive design class.  Unfortunately I was too young to realize what a special thing that was,  so I never got his name. 

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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Was the above Packard in the Briggs Cunningham collection at on time? I went through that collection when it was in  California, and got the feeling any car could be take out for a drive, does the Revs collection emit the same feeling? Bob 

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1 hour ago, 1937hd45 said:

Was the above Packard in the Briggs Cunningham collection at on time? I went through that collection when it was in  California, and got the feeling any car could be take out for a drive, does the Revs collection emit the same feeling? Bob 

 

I know for certain that one of the survivors is going to be driving down the road on New Years Day to go out to breakfast in sunny Florida. 👍

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Edited by edinmass (see edit history)
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17 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

Was the above Packard in the Briggs Cunningham collection at on time?

Yes, I learned that Cunningham bought the car from Badenhausen's son in 1952 so that helps a bit in dating the photo.

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What I know about Olds, could fill a thimble.  I got a PM saying it's an Autocrat, not a Limited, and edited the original post.  Looks like a serious car that ought to be well cared for in someone's collection today, somewhere!

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26 minutes ago, twin6 said:

What I know about Olds, could fill a thimble.  I got a PM saying it's an Autocrat, not a Limited, and edited the original post.  Looks like a serious car that ought to be well cared for in someone's collection today, somewhere!

 

Going by the Standard Catalog info the Autocrat was basically a Limited with two cylinders removed, on a shorter frame (126" vs 140"), and on smaller wheels (38 x 4 1/2 vs 42 x 4 1/2). From a distance probably hard to tell apart.

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17 minutes ago, twin6 said:

Joe Knowles' 1909 Stevens Duryea, a common site on tours in New England in the 1950's.  Would love to know its fate.

1909.JPG

 

Last I knew it was in Central Massachuetts in a collection with two or three others. They were all for sale at the time.

 

 

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Re the Olds parade photo - Francis V DuPont of Wilmington entered a 1911 Olds in the 1946 Glidden. 

 

1946-08-14_TrentonNJEveningTimes_DuPont_Oldsmobile.jpg.fd37898c0603b182d5f03e785c122cc9.jpg

 

The 1948 AACA roster said that he had a 1911 "Aristocrat" - the politically correct way of talking about an Autocrat?  I don't think this was an Olds model, probably just an error. 

 

1948-12-1_AntiqueAutomobile_DuPont_Oldsmobile.jpg.4213e6f43e3474ecf95d37407ee84f06.jpg

 

1954-61 rosters show a 1911 4-cylinder, 7-pass. car, in "original" condition, #65755, owned by Charles Boothby.  The 1968 register doesn't show 65755, but it shows a 1911 4-cylinder 7-pass. Autocrat, owned by J A Frost.

 

I'm unilaterally calling the election for the boardwalk photo car to be DuPont (though I may have been tampered with :-).  But even I wouldn't want to make any hard guesses about Boothby or Frost.

 

I wonder if the color photo is Atlantic City.  There were regular antique car parades there, and the 1948 parade shows a placard very similar to the one on the Olds.

 

1948-09-13_VinelandNJDailyJournal_AC_show.thumb.jpg.738f3869920af2e98f2a3597a74822e6.jpg

 

And what's 2 cars behind the Olds?  A Model K Ford with wire wheels?  Hispano-Suiza Alfonso XIII?  Cameron Peck sent a 1912 Hispano-Suiza to the 1949 parade.

 

1949-05-16_CentralNJHomeNews_AC_Hispano.jpg.55387d908c47b2321529f4ddc992c8c1.jpg

 

The Hispano that he had in at Fairmount Park in 1949 sure looked like the parade car.

 

1949-13-3_AntiqueAutomobile_Peck_Hispano.thumb.jpg.41847ed2088351a000a7bd511c41d7e9.jpg

 

Speaking of cars from long ago, is this the roadster that is now at Beaulieu?

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