What are some of the great "missing" Classics, prewar American?

[edinmass]

Back to the subject at hand.........I’ll add a few photos and comments. Please post your thoughts.......

 

This car is still with us.........but it’s hidden and hasn’t been out in a long time that I am aware of......

[edinmass]

Both of these cars are also still running and driving........one in the states, the other is sadly has been out of the country for quite a while.

[edinmass]

This one is local to me last I knew.....I got to drive it a few years back. Great car........

[edinmass]

Very rare car, this photo is in my office.....I like it a lot. Not sure if any of these survived.

[K8096]

Looks like they couldn’t get metal tire covers to fit on the Pierce even when the car was new.   

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, RICHELIEUMOTORCAR said:

 This topic really took off. I have many old photos to search through which my car crazy uncles both took during their decades of car hunting and collecting. Some are from car lots, others they took of cars being towed into scrap yards during the 30s, 40s, 50s ect while others were taken at early car shows. If anyone is interested, I would be happy to scan some photos of just the big league cars into the computer, as spare time permits and post them on the site for our enjoyment. I just opened one photo album tonight and this was the first photo I found so we are off to a good start. It has a May 1959 date so I would think all the cars in this photo are still around today. It could be from anywhere as my uncles did get around. I know we have a photo of an open SJ, not a J on a used car lot in New York during the War years with a $995 price tag on the window. My uncle tried to chew the dealer down to $500 but no sale. A week later, it was gone. I will find that photo. Does anyone know this Model J? I know it's only a corner photo, however, I'm sure one of our experts will spot the car right away. 

 

 

The J might be tough because there are a lot of dark Murphy Convertible coupes.  The Stutz on the other hand....   Jason?

[edinmass]

Anyone know if this one is still with us? Couldn’t be too many made back in the day.

[edinmass]

I think the Stutz can be narrowed down to one of three if I am not mistaken............Jason can opine........

[edinmass]

This one lives out on the west coast today.....a one off. Parked next to my old car......another one off....along with another twenty five Pierce Arrows......at least it’s not lonely!

Edited December 12, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Is this car still with us? The Packard boys should know.....

[West Peterson]

13 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Very rare car, this photo is in my office.....I like it a lot. Not sure if any of these survived.

 

Yes. A few of these Sport (capital "S") phaetons survive, both in Six and Eight configurations from 1924-1926. It was basically the predecessor to the Speedster series of 1929-30. The bodies were made by Pullman, an were about six inches shorter (vertically) and six inches narrower than standard phaetons. The color of this one is curious, as they were delivered new being grey with deep maroon or burgundy wheels and black fenders.

[edinmass]

Here’s a rare and expensive Springfield when new.....with a famous lady....

[alsancle]

West knows but I think all the runabouts exist.

 

You need to start a thread called "Cool cars that still exist".  No Pierce Arrows allowed. 😁

[West Peterson]

Here are a couple of Sport Survivors. The white one is before Turnquist turned it into a "LeBaron" show car.

[edinmass]

2 minutes ago, alsancle said:

West knows but I think all the runabouts exist.

 

You need to start a thread called "Cool cars that still exist".  No Pierce Arrows allowed. 😁

 

Im not as knowledgeable as many of you guys here on non Pierce Arrow stuff........I lived in a very small world for many years with a narrow focus. Sorry if I post cars that still exist........but many of them haven’t been seen for years.......

[edinmass]

Here is a very rare photo of a new car in the era with the lights installed at what appears to be the factory dealership........

[West Peterson]

9 minutes ago, edinmass said:

Is this car still with us? The Packard boys should know.....

 

Yes, I think they all exist. I'm not sure if it is known exactly which of the four this one may be. The Bahre car has a spare tire on the back, and teardrop-shaped running boards, but those modifications may have been made after the original build. This car does not appear to be final edition of the Macauley Speedster, that was pictured earlier in this thread.

 

[edinmass]

A recent barn find........from Hershey three years ago, took another year to get the car. AJ, it’s ok to post these photos, as the car no longer exists! Who says you can’t find a good project car for 1200 dollars anymore?

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

Here’s a rare and expensive Springfield when new.....with a famous lady....

1 minute ago, edinmass said:

A recent barn find........from Hershey three years ago, took another year to get the car. AJ, it’s ok to post these photos, as the car no longer exists! Who says you can’t find a good project car for 1200 dollars anymore?

 

 

That would have been a good restoration project for you.  Reminds me of the Lincoln collection for sale.

[K8096]

The Stutz is the 1933 Dv 32 Rollston conv victoria.   It was dark maroon until Andy Simo restored it and painted it two tone tan 10 years ago.   

[edinmass]

43 minutes ago, K8096 said:

Looks like they couldn’t get metal tire covers to fit on the Pierce even when the car was new.   

 

For obvious reasons the presidential special Pierce Arrow touring cars didn’t have side mount covers made of steel........🎯

[PFitz]

Only Derham bodied Franklin Berline known to exist,..  now in hiding in Saratoga Springs.  A 1931 Series 153 Deluxe limo.

Edited December 12, 2018 by PFitz (see edit history)

[ericmac]

8 hours ago, edinmass said:

Erimac.......to be open and honest many people on this thread can’t comment on cars for many diffrent reasons, liability, competition, reputation, and a bunch of other things............thus it’s common for several people to know a car has an “issue” but won’t even mention what it is.......they will just issue a “do your homework” comment and leave it at that......which is a huge red flag that says, don’t walk away, run. There are a few great cars that have been showen and reported on a “pure as newly fallen snow” when in reality they came out of the back side of a........how shal we put it delicately.......... a garage with the same reputation as “a house of I’ll reput!”

Ed, I am aware of a couple cars that are, say, of questionable origin.  I used to work for a shop where we were scheduled to do some extensive work on a '32 Cadillac 341 B Convertible Coupe.  When the car arrived it turned out to be a 452 V-16 B Convertible Coupe.  I was confused and blurted out  "what happened to the other car?" The transporter only replied,  "you mean the 341 Sedan we sold a couple months back?" One pure V-16 gone I guess. Naturally the pedigree of the Convertible Coupe was relegated to the nod-nod, wink-wink category.

This is the Franklin I wondered about. Sorry for the so-so image. This one appeared in the excellent Olympian Cars in the Franklin section. 

[John_Mereness]

8 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

I never noticed that. There is the Ab Jenkins #1 endurance car, though, photographed in 1937 without white tires.

Interesting too that this Cord is running on Firestones and most photos you see of Cord show Goodrich Silvertowns. 

[Walt G]

The Franklin is a 1929 series 13 model 135 or 137. Body may be by Locke.

I have lots of period photos to share but most of this will happen/appear  in the Antique Automobile magazine starting next year if West chooses to use them as he has/ can find  space . I love the forum, but much prefer to hold a magazine and look at period photographs then stare at a computer screen! What more can I say , I am old school. 😏

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

Here is a very rare photo of a new car in the era with the lights installed at what appears to be the factory dealership........

Really Great 1930 V-16 photo - a light colored car with "painted frame" and Whitewalls too (color options are not in the 1930 Accessory Brochure and neither are whitewalls or any sidemount spare verses rear or tire brand option for that matter).  Also note:  No Mascot (a goddess would have cost $25.00), sidemount mirrors ($32.00 pr) on both the V-16 and the V-8 are not the script kind found on 1931's (caught me off guard so I pulled my 1930 Accessory Brochure off the shelf and sure enough 30's were different), Pilot Ray ($40.00) only a single is shown in accessory brochure and note it is not the 1931 type that matches headlights,  plus sidemount covers ($6.50 - $10.00 each).  Also note details overlooked in many restorations such as color keyed backsides of bumpers. 

Edited December 12, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, PFitz said:

Only Derham bodied Franklin Berline known to exist,..  now in hiding in Saratoga Springs.  A 1931 Series 153 Deluxe limo.

 

Is that Walt's old car?

[John_Mereness]

2 hours ago, K8096 said:

The Stutz is the 1933 Dv 32 Rollston conv victoria.   It was dark maroon until Andy Simo restored it and painted it two tone tan 10 years ago.   

If this is the car, we picked on that car one day when it was in Ohio - the car was in the Harrah's collection at some point.  It was a truly beautiful deep dark maroon, but when we started to poke around there was a chance the car had actually been a burnt orange (including its underside) - this may help with any identification to original photos.   Sidenote, the drop center wheels had been restored at some point so you could not pin down a possible original wheel color and I do recall that reproduction wheel disk covers had been installed at time we saw car, though in the Harrah's photos the car had painted wheels with stainless/chrome spokes. 

[John_Mereness]

14 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Is that Walt's old car?

No, Walt's Franklin had a Derham body in an Opera Coupe configuration

Edited December 12, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Anyone else know Art Brummer back in the day? He could write a book.

[8E45E]

8 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Really Great 1930 V-16 photo - a light colored car with "painted frame" and Whitewalls too (color options are not in the 1930 Accessory Brochure and neither are whitewalls or any sidemount spare verses rear or tire brand option for that matter).  Also note:  No Mascot (a goddess would have cost $25.00), sidemount mirrors ($32.00 pr) on both the V-16 and the V-8 are not the script kind found on 1931's (caught me off guard so I pulled my 1930 Accessory Brochure off the shelf and sure enough 30's were different), Pilot Ray ($40.00) only a single is shown in accessory brochure and note it is not the 1931 type that matches headlights,  plus sidemount covers ($6.50 - $10.00 each).  Also note details overlooked in many restorations such as color keyed backsides of bumpers. 

Therefore, a valuable photo for reference when it comes to an authentic restoration.

 

Craig

Edited December 12, 2018 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

10 hours ago, K8096 said:

Where is this Duesenberg now?   Photo taken at Dennison University, Ohio, 1957.  Does it still look like this, or is it a Derham Tourister now? 

Gotta love that running board spotlight bent around the sidemount.     

 

 

Note the landaus are upside down. A pet peeve.

[PFitz]

8 hours ago, alsancle said:

 

Is that Walt's old car?

Nope, not Walt's  Derham. Here's a better picture of the Derham Berline and Walt's Derham Sportsman's Coupe.

 

This Derham is the same 153 Deluxe Series as Walt's and the only other Derham bodied 31 Franklin that's known to exist.   

 

 Like Walt's, it has a full leather top. What doesn't show up in pictures, that adds to it's being semi custom nature, is that it does not use  the standard 153 running board splash aprons like Walt's car does. And it has a different grill shell and hood so that the hood front is lowered to better match the roof line when viewed in profile. The rear compartment is gray/blue broad cloth and Wilton carpet, marshal pad seats. The chauffer's compartment is all black leather.  

 

Paul

[PFitz]

On ‎12‎/‎9‎/‎2018 at 7:20 PM, alsancle said:

Is the Pirate still around?

 

 Not that 1930 Pirate Sedan, as far as the Franklin Club knows about.

 

However, the Walker built Pirate Sedan survives and is in the Franklin exhibit at the Gilmore Museum.

 

In addition, there are still 12 Franklin Pirate body style tourings surviving. Seven 5 passenger "Tourings" and five 7 passenger "Phaetons". Here's a picture of one of the 7 passenger Phaetons.

 

Paul

[twin6]

As roster keeper of early Packards, I would love to know what happened to this car, a c. 1915 model 48 with custom body supposedly by Cole & Woop.  I realize the car is not from the classic era, but thought this would be a good thread to post this to.  A separate thread might be appropriate, for earlier cars or ones that have proved elusive to roster keepers (who always need help!).  I've heard theories this car was lost to the WW2 scrap drive, but the attire of onlookers in the old press photo makes me think the photo was taken after the war.  Another theory was that the car got rebodied, but the histories of the existing 48's don't line up well (and as an aside, I would think a custom body like this would have turned up on another drive train).

[1912Staver]

When we go back to the later teens/ early 20's the survivor rate plummets compared to the mainstream "classic" era.  One off and similar customs were quite popular however they are almost never seen today. Even the standard versions of the higher quality cars the customs were usually based on often have painfully small numbers of survivors.

 The cars from this earlier era became obsolete quickly, generally had large diameter tires that soon became hard to buy, and often used quite a bit of aluminum in their construction. At a relatively young age they were worth substantially more as metal than their value as a car.

Look at the survivor percentage of Model A Dusenberg's vs Model J's. 

 

Greg in Canada

Edited December 12, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Walt G]

Paul there is one other Derham bodied Franklin and also a 1931 series 153! it is the town car at the Harrah collection that was restored from a really poor remains of a car found I believe in the Pacific Northwest. I had a lot of conversations with Paul Larios and Mike Moore of the Harrah collection when that town car was under restoration. I recall Paul calling once and starting off with "it's me again with more questions".

My former victoria brougham now has a home in eastern  Pennsylvania and was shown at the Elegance at Hershey by its current owner this year where it won an award for pre war enclosed custom bodied cars. It couldn't have a better owner then the friend that has it now and not only enjoys showing it but drives it on tours. Nice to know that the car currently is about 10 miles away from its first home  from 1931 to 1941.

For those of you reading this , Paul is the one who did all the structural wood work replacement in the body on my Derham, he is an absolute master at that craft! This included both front door posts, entire cowl, both main body sills and he even crafted a new trunk to replace the original one that was taken off the cars 30 years before the car was rediscovered.

[Curti]

1937 Rena, built by Thomas Hibbard,  still exists .  

[PFitz]

Walt,

 

Yes that Derham town car has been carried over in the Club's Rosters. I tend to forget it as a "known survivor" because one of my customers tried very hard to track it down a few years ago with no success as to if it's still around somewhere. 

 

But, I do get to see and re-enjoy yours now that Bob has been bringing it the Trek. And I get to see the Berline body & chassis everytime I go in our Saratoga Springs garage. So I'm certain those two exist.   

 

Paul

Edited December 12, 2018 by PFitz (see edit history)

[edinmass]

3 hours ago, twin6 said:

As roster keeper of early Packards, I would love to know what happened to this car, a c. 1915 model 48 with custom body supposedly by Cole & Woop.  I realize the car is not from the classic era, but thought this would be a good thread to post this to.  A separate thread might be appropriate, for earlier cars or ones that have proved elusive to roster keepers (who always need help!).  I've heard theories this car was lost to the WW2 scrap drive, but the attire of onlookers in the old press photo makes me think the photo was taken after the war.  Another theory was that the car got rebodied, but the histories of the existing 48's don't line up well (and as an aside, I would think a custom body like this would have turned up on another drive train).

 

Coachwork sure looks like Demarest of New York to my eye........thoughts? Where did the other body ID come from? Photo looks like 1937 to me.............car has different tires on it in the two photos. Neat car. Har car to hide if it survived.