What are some of the great "missing" Classics, prewar American?

[John_Mereness]

On 12/9/2018 at 12:06 AM, alsancle said:

KA Lincoln.  Lebaron body

 

I think this is stunning !

[John_Mereness]

7 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

John,  it would be awesome of that was true and I thought that for a while too,  but I don't think so.  Do you know more of the story then what is out there?

 https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1934-packard-twelve-1108-sport-sedan/ - very well documented in auction brochure text at time of sale, including the who, what, where, when, & how, and why  it was converted to sidemounts in Restoration, as well as its original photos and full history (and David does not get these things wrong to my knowledge). 

[edinmass]

34 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

 https://www.goodingco.com/vehicle/1934-packard-twelve-1108-sport-sedan/ - very well documented in auction brochure text at time of sale, including the who, what, where, when, & how, and why  it was converted to sidemounts in Restoration, as well as its original photos and full history (and David does not get these things wrong to my knowledge). 

 

That information is not correct, and can be confirmed by several people, including myself. I have worked on and driven the car that was in the Gooding auction extensively, many times. 

[John_Mereness]

11 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

That information is not correct, and can be confirmed by several people, including myself. I have worked on and driven the car that was in the Gooding auction extensively, many times. 

Interesting

[John_Mereness]

On 12/9/2018 at 6:22 PM, alsancle said:

Murphy bodied Packard.

 

I will retract -doubt anyone converted one from sidemounts to rear space and wires to disks. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

1 hour ago, John_Mereness said:

West, I assume they built several - Phillips was the "off the shelf" body builder for Stearns (all be it any 8 cyl Stearns Knight was a rare car new and still today). 

West, I sort of grew up in the rumbleseat of a 1929 Stearns Knight 6 cyl Coupe (Maroon and Black with wood wheels).  Dad's first employee was Dave Bell (who was WKO Club President and archivist for years) - Dave lived on Orchard in Oakwood (and we lived on East Dixon).  I recall spending many a weekend night holding the shop light while he and dad worked on it - he ran it well into the 200K  miles and very fortunately had an extra engine as  6cyl cars are even more rare than an 8cyl).   Dave had been working out in LA when found his car.  Pictures are of car out at Bob Agle's post Dave's death. 

[1935Packard]

5 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Its interesting to see the crazy value fluctuations from a standard production car to the one off full blown custom. Both offer the same driving experience, but the price can be twenty to thirty times more for the special. Funny part of it is, 99 percent of the general population can’t tell a standard eight from a custom twelve. It’s like the Pebble Beach paint job versus a nice run of the mill paint job. Almost no non collectors can tell the difference from a twenty five thousand dollar job or the two hundred fifty thousand dollar job. It sure costs a lot of money to impress the one percent of the people!

 

I wonder how much of that price difference is attributable to these kinds of cars mostly being used for show rather than to drive.  If a car is being driven, the driving experience matters and the paint that was perfect before won't be perfect after 10,000 miles.  You wouldn't expect a massive difference in the market valuation if the cars are being used as cars. But if the cars are show cars that are works of art rather than things driven, then the market price difference could be something like the market price difference in the art world between a print that is one of 200 and a painting by the same artist that is one of one.  The two may look pretty similar, and they're both by the artist, but the print can be had for a tiny fraction of the price of the painting --- they're just completely different parts of the market.

[wayne sheldon]

Words escape me.

People that know me know that doesn't happen often.  So many wonderful photos of so many simply incredible automobiles! My thanks to all you that are making this thread what it is!

 

SC38DLS said "I couldn’t afford a lugnut on any of these cars but thank goodness it doesn’t cost to look at them. Great thread. Keep them coming. 

Dave S "

 

That is me as well. I have however been fortunate enough to know a few collectors and been able to see some fantastic cars over the years. And I sometimes wonder what may have become of some of them.

One,  a friend from my high school days, well, his dad, bought a 1939 Packard V12 with plans to finish restoring it. This was almost fifty years ago. Unfortunately, they ran into some serious problems with it. The previous owner had spent a small fortune (by the standards of fifty years ago) rebuilding the engine and other mechanicals. Sadly, the shop that did the work was long on expensive machine time, but short on knowing how it was supposed to go together. Almost everything was put together wrong, too tight, improper parts, etc. They wound up selling the car a short time later, at a loss.

Things I remember about that car. The bodywork was mostly done, and looked good, body in red oxide primer. Original interior was in remarkably nice condition. I don't recall the model number, but it was a large model Packard, as I said, V12, a towncar with removable soft top over the driver's area. It was one of nine built that year, that model, by Brunn. I believe he said it and one other of the nine were known to survive to that time.

I do hope it was properly restored. It would  also be nice if that interior was still in it and as nice as it was then.

 

Again, thank you to you all!

[alsancle]

6 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

Interesting

 

John,

 

I think the biggest tell tale difference is the trunk area which is very different between the cars.   Also, I believe when the Gooding car was restored by Bob Bahre,  the tell tale signs of modification were not there.   Chris Charlton would know all the details.  If the Gooding car was actually the Mabelline car that would be awesome, but I'm doubtful.   I think West knows some details too and can maybe elaborate better than me.

[8E45E]

The two 1940 convertible sedans modified by Derham for the NY World's Fair: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?33681-1940-President-Touring-Car-Coachwork-by-Derham

 

Both were reportedly cut up and scrapped.

 

Craig

Edited December 11, 2018 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[alsancle]

6 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

The two 1940 convertible sedans modified by Derham for the NY World's Fair: http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?33681-1940-President-Touring-Car-Coachwork-by-Derham

 

[West Peterson]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

That information is not correct, and can be confirmed by several people, including myself. I have worked on and driven the car that was in the Gooding auction extensively, many times. 

 

Both Ed and Al are correct, and I would NOT consider a report written by an auction company as "well documented." I believe I am the one responsible for locating those original Maybelline photos some 5-10 years ago and brought it all to light. The Maybelline owner also owned Bill Snyder's one-off 1940 Packard B&S convertible victoria and a one-off Paige transformable roadster/phaeton owned by a gentleman in Georgia. Neither owner was aware of their cars' ownership history until I discovered those photos. Since then, as Ed and Al said, there are significant differences in the Maybelline car that did not show up during the restorations of the others. It is obviously NOT the "Dome" car, since the photos were taken in Chicago at the time the "Dome" car was being displayed in the fair, and was painted a different color.

[West Peterson]

7 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

I will retract -doubt anyone converted one from sidemounts to rear space and wires to disks. 

 

 

Actually, John, the doubt between Smith's car and the original photo that Al posted can be seen in that they are two different series of cars. Smith's car is a 1927, and the "lost" car is a 1928. Note the difference in the hoods.

[1937hd45]

I'm really enjoying this thread, not to take it sideways but are the cars that make the lawn at Pebble Beach all researched and documented before they are accepted or have a few "undocumented"' cars made it? Bob 

[edinmass]

2 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

I'm really enjoying this thread, not to take it sideways but are the cars that make the lawn at Pebble Beach all researched and documented before they are accepted or have a few "undocumented"' cars made it? Bob 

 

No-one will touch this one with a ten foot pole.........

 

Pebble attempts to screen EVERY car to the best of their ability, and trust me, they are very good at it. A car listed on this actual thread was thought to be a later made up car, and they wouldn't even consider it. When we had multiple pages of documentation and photos of the car back to new, it was gladly and cheerfully accepted for display....if we ever get the dam thing finished. So yes, you need to be on your game and have your ducks in a row.........or you're gonna park at the in and out burger, not the 18th green!

 

And by the way, now that this thread is this long and a few days old, I can confirm that two of the so called missing/disappeared cars on here are still here in the US, with a very few people looking to get them out of their long term ownership. There is a saying on the field at Pebble, to buy a fantastic car you need one of three events to make the sale happen..........death, divorce, and taxes. Otherwise the really great stuff usually doesn't move around too much.

Edited December 11, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[West Peterson]

On 12/9/2018 at 5:47 PM, alsancle said:

Ferdinand and Darrin Packard.

 

 

This one is my favorite. Oh, please, God, let this be one of the ones in which Ed is talking about. 🙂

[Xander Wildeisen]

29 minutes ago, edinmass said:

 

Pebble attempts to screen EVERY car to the best of their ability, and trust me, they are very good at it. 

Not much seems to get by the people on the forum. 

[ericmac]

I too have thoroughly enjoyed every word and every photo in this thread. Thanks everyone for making it happen.  I have one I am curious about.  I'll get the photo up soon.

[West Peterson]

This factory concept 1930 Packard 734 Speedster is not known to exist. One wonders (well... I do, anyway) if the chassis was used for one of the five other body styles available for the Speedster series, or was the chassis used for one of the Macauley Speedsters (Phaeton or boattail) of 1934?

[West Peterson]

Did this 1932 Packard Individual Custom convertible victoria turned fire truck survive?

[edinmass]

Erimac.......to be open and honest many people on this thread can’t comment on cars for many diffrent reasons, liability, competition, reputation, and a bunch of other things............thus it’s common for several people to know a car has an “issue” but won’t even mention what it is.......they will just issue a “do your homework” comment and leave it at that......which is a huge red flag that says, don’t walk away, run. There are a few great cars that have been showen and reported on a “pure as newly fallen snow” when in reality they came out of the back side of a........how shal we put it delicately.......... a garage with the same reputation as “a house of I’ll reput!”

[edinmass]

3 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

Did this 1932 Packard Individual Custom convertible victoria turned fire truck survive?

 

If it did it’s a car again! See the above post! (I have no idea and have never seen this great photo before.)

 

I would gladly light my house on fire if this truck showed up to put out the fire.......

Edited December 11, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Xander Wildeisen]

Are there any great prewar missing micro cars?

[alsancle]

I think the best approach is not to comment at all.  Mom always said, " if you can't say anything good, don't say anything at all".   She did have one exception,  which was that I was allowed to ridicule white walls.

[Xander Wildeisen]

I think your Cord looks good with white walls.

[8E45E]

29 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Are there any great prewar missing micro cars?

Maybe not so much here, but go across the pond to England, there appears to be several.  The British publication, The Automobile publishes photos of long lost cars in each issue every month, which includes many micro-cars.

 

Craig

[alsancle]

28 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

I think your Cord looks good with white walls.

 

 

Two problems.  1st is that there are no factory pictures of a Cord with blackwalls.  2nd is that it is not my Cord.

[West Peterson]

21 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

 

Two problems.  1st is that there are no factory pictures of a Cord with blackwalls.  2nd is that it is not my Cord.

 

I never noticed that. There is the Ab Jenkins #1 endurance car, though, photographed in 1937 without white tires.

[alsancle]

44 minutes ago, West Peterson said:

 

I never noticed that. There is the Ab Jenkins #1 endurance car, though, photographed in 1937 without white tires.

 

That was because they needed to go fast, not participate in a parade.   I always notice it.  53 Packard Caribbeans are the same way.

[jeff_a]

Re: missing classics, there was a memorable post about that which Matt Harwood wrote back in ought four. I'll try to wrestle the whole thing over to this post, but it was General Discussion, 10/25/04, "Duesy, what does it cost to get into one?". An interesting discussion prompted when someone was considering getting a Duesenberg and had no idea as to reliability/complexity/driveability/cost, except an arm , a leg, a first-born child, etc.

 

I hope Matt doesn't mind me quoting him. Unfortunately the photos don't seem to have survived 14 years..........maybe someone will know some of the cars being talked about:

 

"There's a gentleman in my area (I'll refrain from naming him for privacy reasons) who owns 20 or so Js, including Clark Gable's SSJ roadster (it is now black and red). I recall when I was a kid and doing some research on the Duesenberg brothers for a school paper (car guy to the core!) that he had several cars that were rumored to have been destroyed during the war. But one day, he just shows up at a local show in one of them and everybody went nuts saying it was a missing car. Turns out he had several such specimens and even a bare chassis with 0 miles! I've seen a few of them at shows, but he's very reclusive and doesn't share his entire collection. I wonder what else he has squirrelled away there? It's tantalizing to think about it!

My step-grandfather also claimed to have scrapped several Duesenbergs during the war. Apparently, they were more valuable as scrap metal than as cars (they were just used cars in the 1940s, I guess). I dearly hope he was mistaken on that...

Then there's the 1929 LeBaron dual-cowl phaeton (sent back to the factory in 1933 for the SJ update!) that I had the honor of helping to restore when I was an apprentice in the mid-80s. The car was found in Argentina with the back half of the body cut away to make way for a tow-truck crane apparatus. It was a sad sight when it arrived, but when it left, it was spectacular: black and gold with chrome wire wheels, tan top and natural leather interior if I remember it correctly. I took a few rides in it and it accelerated like a car half its size and the torque was astounding. I recall the restorer with whom I worked telling one of the guys who was driving the car to the storage area: just put it in third and forget about it--it could easily be launched from a dead stop in top gear! And when you opened the exhaust cut-out, it thundered down the road with a sound that still gives me goosebumps to think about today--nothing short of an open-exhaust funnycar comes close.

I have a kidney, half a liver, a lung and an eye for sale if anyone wants to trade for their Duesenberg. I'd even be willing to produce a child or two just for the honor...

<span style="font-style: italic">(just kidding, guys, just kidding!)</span>

The attachment is a photo of the '29 J I helped restore. Sorry about the lousy photos--I was only 14!"

 

Note:  My posting of the above from 15 years ago turns out to have been less than helpful. My apologies to Matt.  ---- Jeff Brown

 

 

 

Edited December 12, 2018 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[alsancle]

53 minutes ago, jeff_a said:

My step-grandfather also claimed to have scrapped several Duesenbergs during the war. Apparently, they were more valuable as scrap metal than as cars (they were just used cars in the 1940s, I guess). I dearly hope he was mistaken on that...

Then there's the 1929 LeBaron dual-cowl phaeton (sent back to the factory in 1933 for the SJ update!) that I had the honor of helping to restore when I was an apprentice in the mid-80s. The car was found in Argentina with the back half of the body cut away to make way for a tow-truck crane apparatus. It was a sad sight when it arrived, but when it left, it was spectacular: black and gold with chrome wire wheels, tan top and natural leather interior if I remember it correctly. I took a few rides in it and it accelerated like a car half its size and the torque was astounding. I recall the restorer with whom I worked telling one of the guys who was driving the car to the storage area: just put it in third and forget about it--it could easily be launched from a dead stop in top gear! And when you opened the exhaust cut-out, it thundered down the road with a sound that still gives me goosebumps to think about today--nothing short of an open-exhaust funnycar comes close.

I have a kidney, half a liver, a lung and an eye for sale if anyone wants to trade for their Duesenberg. I'd even be willing to produce a child or two just for the honor...

<span style="font-style: italic">(just kidding, guys, just kidding!)</span>

The attachment is a photo of the '29 J I helped restore. Sorry about the lousy photos--I was only 14!"

 

This sounds a lot like J292.  But that was restored in the 70s by Ted Billings.

 

 

[alsancle]

Looking for the pictures of J292 made me think of another lost Classic.  This is a coachbuilt Reo Royale on a special wheelbase.  Only picture I have ever seen of the car.

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 hour ago, jeff_a said:

 The car was found in Argentina with the back half of the body cut away to make way for a tow-truck crane apparatus. 

 

 

 

Please tell me that there is a picture of that floating around somewhere. 

[alsancle]

17 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Please tell me that there is a picture of that floating around somewhere. 

 

J292 was the Paris Show car DC Phaeton sent to Argentina off the show stand.  In the mid 30s it received a Dual Carb Supercharged engine and was modified for racing.  In the 60s Ed Jurist discovered it and broought it back to the US where he sold it to Ted Billings.  The car was painted Black and Gold.   Ted sold it around 1981.   I  posted a picture of J292 in its racing garb circa 1940 and then in the 1960s when Ted got it.

 

I'm not doubting Matt,  but I have never heard of the car he is describing,  unless it is J292.

[Xander Wildeisen]

While it is not J292, this custom Idaho car does have duel side mounts. Be kind in your comments, the owner was very nice, and told me the story of how her husband saved a wrecked car, had some fun in turning it into something that they could use. Any thoughts on the year/make/model? Just like the Duesenberg, all cars at some point, are just a used car. Sad to see so many great cars lost. I am sure parts of some of them, are still around.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Xander Wildeisen (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

Well I didn't really intend on joining this discussion--I don't have any knowledge of most of these cars and their whereabouts. I've enjoyed the thread, but I really wish a 15-year-old comment of mine hadn't just dropped in, particularly one based on obviously incomplete 30-year-old recollections of a young kid. Knowing how much people love to spike the football on me when I'm wrong, I'm sure this is going to create all kinds of colorful PMs and comments for me to enjoy (note: sarcasm) and feel shitty about. 

 

In  the summer of 1984, I was 14 years old and worked for a restorer in the employ of Sey (Seymour) Rosenblatt, a collector of some note here in Cleveland. He owned the Duesenberg I mentioned, a black and gold 1929 dual cowl phaeton that they told me had come from Argentina. When I precociously pointed out that 1929 Duesenbergs didn't come with superchargers, I was told that it had been retrofitted with a supercharger sometime after its construction (obviously). The back of the car had already been removed when I started work that summer and I helped reassemble it after some new body panels were made, both rear fenders (I do specifically remember those being cut and welded together) and maybe the rear half of the body. The restorer who owned the shop told me it had been a tow truck in Argentina, but with the benefit of more years in the area and in the hobby, I have subsequently learned two things: one, Sey had tendency to, shall we say, "nudge" stuff, often at speed, and two, the restorer, while insanely talented, was also a genuine crazy person. It is likely that this is the car that AJ describes, J292, and when I saw it, it was being repaired after an accident. I was 13 or 14 years old, very impressionable and very excited, and they probably had plenty of laughs at my expense without me ever realizing it. This is likely one of those times. The car was lovely, but I didn't even know about checking serial numbers at the time, I was only a little kid. I only had the information they gave me. The rest of the time I was scraping grease and paint off rusty parts or sweeping the floor or running the sand blaster, all jobs nobody else wanted. I worked for free just to be there.

 

The same goes for my comments on the Ferrara collection, above. Again, I first met Mr. Ferrara when I was about 12 years old and had a surprisingly lengthy conversation with him about a big sedan he was displaying at, I think, the Ursuline College concours that happened around that time (1982?). I clearly remember being impressed that he took the time to talk to a stupid little kid, but I will also say that I was much more knowledgeable about Duesenbergs than the average 12-year-old kid, too. He showed me kindness and respect, and it was at that show (or maybe two years later) that he also displayed a finished chassis that had a sign board attached to it indicating that it was a display chassis from some auto show in-period. One of the other people in the club pointed out to me that the big black sedan was a car that hadn't been seen since before the war. Is that true? I don't know. Not unlikely that Ferrara could have a car that was out of circulation for 40 years, but I don't know which car it might have been.

 

In 2004, I moved to a new house and a side benefit of that was that Mr. Ferrara lived two doors down. I had the opportunity to reacquaint myself with him and he once stopped by when he saw my father's Model A roadster in my driveway. Several times I was able to visit his collection in the large garage next door to his house, and I saw 6 or 7 Duesenberg Js, including the SSJ, which, of course, is red and silver, not black and red as I mentioned above. There was also an Isotta-Fraschini convertible coupe, a massive Locomobile which I have subsequently sold, an Auburn 851 or 852 speedster, several large Lincolns and Packards, and perhaps a half-dozen other cars. The extent of his Duesenberg collection is known to be 11 or 12 cars, and that seems about right. He had at least twice that many cars total in addition to the Duesenbergs. I enjoyed his friendship for several years while I lived nearby, and while we often talked about things other than cars, he was still enthusiastic about the cars most of all. I was very sad when he passed. I do have a passing acquaintanceship with his son, but for obvious reasons, he isn't terribly interested in letting people poke around the collection or in selling it. I do not know what will become of the collection or what cars are still there. As I said, I have sold one and another dealer has sold at least two of the cars from the collection. I wouldn't be surprised if others were sold privately. The SSJ is still there, as is the Auburn and a large Lincoln sedan, but I am unsure of any others.

 

Much of the content of my post above comes from my recollection of these cars when I was a child in the '80s, and almost all of that knowledge came from what I was able to glean from adults talking at shows. Subsequent to that post, I did spend time with Mr. Ferrara and gathered more specifics, but again, tracking serial numbers and identifying specific cars was not something I was doing given the circumstances.  

 

Sorry for the distraction from an otherwise excellent thread on wonderful cars. Please continue and thank you for sharing your knowledge, everyone.

Edited December 12, 2018 by Matt Harwood (see edit history)

[Dynaflash8]

I enjoy reading everything that Matt Harwood writes ---- except to learn he was only 14 years old in 1984 when I was already 46 and in process of winning in AACA with my show Buicks.  Too soon too old!! 

 

One of my best old car buddies of the 1960s, 70s and 80s, who I still miss greatly, was an 851-852 Auburn speedster lover (and Buick straight 8 as well).  He told me of a number of Duesenbergs that had been around Baltimore in the 1950s.  Once Randy Emma spent a weekend with my friend and I had the pleasure of taking him, my friend, and another friend of them both to the Carlisle Flea Market.  Randy Emma, from what I understood, knew the where boughts of virtually every Duesenberg J that had ever been built.  I really enjoyed listening to them talk during that drive to Carlisle.

 

It always amazes me how many were around Baltimore in the 1950s.  I was from D.C. before then and never knew of a Duesenberg or Auburn speedster there; but I did know of a few Cords.......none on the road though as late as 1956-1959.  Another late friend from those times told me he worked part time at a garage in Baltimore where the owner had two Duesenbergs.   A former owner of my 39 Buick convertible sedan also had a Duesenberg in suburban Baltimore at one time in the early 1970s.  I never was much of a window shopper though.  I did find a Model A Duesenberg in he woods outside of Annapolis, MD once though.  It had been made into a pickup truck and then put into the woods.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[alsancle]

Matt,  I wasn't trying to call you out or be a know it all,  but that particular story happens to be  one I do know very well and the Argentina side of the story does not have agreement from all the guys that "know".

 

When the car went to auction the story with it really undersold what it was.  That car has a real Dual Carb SJ engine that came down from the factory (not a wreck) and a real race history.   You can see from my picture that the front 1/2 of the body was intact.   It also was the Paris Salon show car.  

 

I'll have to find a restored picture of it and post.

[edinmass]

Al Ferrara was a nice gentleman And I got to know him over the years mostly at CCCA and Pierce Arrow Society events. He always had a smile and a kind word. I know the several Pierce Arrow cars in his collection were sold privately, as they were offered to people who were known collectors who were actively acquiring cars at the time. I also knew a few others were sold off, but never asked which ones as privacy is important to many people in the hobby. While I knew Al had the “shorty” because several major collectors were asking him to sell it in front of me, I didn’t know he had that many Model J’s in his garage. Al was very low key, so it doesn’t surprise me. I can still see him standing at the receptions with the dark brown jacket he wore so often, a drink in his hand, a smile across his face. He was a joy to spend time with........rest in peace my friend......we still speak of you often......most recently in September on the Duesenberg tour.....

Edited December 12, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Matt Harwood]

9 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Matt,  I wasn't trying to call you out or be a know it all,  but that particular story happens to be  one I do know very well and the Argentina side of the story does not have agreement from all the guys that "know".

 

When the car went to auction the story with it really undersold what it was.  That car has a real Dual Carb SJ engine that came down from the factory (not a wreck) and a real race history.   You can see from my picture that the front 1/2 of the body was intact.   It also was the Paris Salon show car.  

 

I'll have to find a restored picture of it and post.

 

I didn't mean you specifically, AJ. There's nevertheless a fairly aggressive group of guys on this forum who take opportunities like this where I've made a mistake to point out that since I know so little about cars, I shouldn't be permitted to make a living in "their" hobby and that I'm everything wrong with today's old car hobby. Whenever I make a mistake, they're inevitably there to kick me for it, which is why I was dismayed to see the return of this error-filled post from 15 years ago.

 

Not you, of course, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Thanks for clarifying.