What are some of the great "missing" Classics, prewar American?

[packard12man]

Ed, attaching photo taken at Pebble Beach circa 1962.  I assume there is about a one in three chance that you are very familiar with this car!  

 

[edinmass]

Those photos are early........back when it was 95 percent brass that was being collected. Most everyone is wearing a hat. Back in the day when a V-16 Cadillac was listed as a tow car by the AACA. 

[edinmass]

5 minutes ago, packard12man said:

Ed, attaching photo taken at Pebble Beach circa 1962.  I assume there is about a one in three chance that you are very familiar with this car!  

 

 

Yes, very familiar with that one! It's my humble opinion the 1932 Full Custom Dietrich Sport Phaetons are the most beautiful open cars ever made.........the 33's are nice, but the open fender cars are where it's at for me. That is NOT a common photo, I I thought that the only copies were in my possession..........the driver in the car when this was taken in 1952 or 1953 if memory serves me, is alive and well......in his mid nineties. 

Edited December 13, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[60FlatTop]

7 hours ago, edinmass said:

Time makes all things come full circle.

 

I was noticing that many of the pictures are of cars 30 years old or newer at the time the picture was taken. They were expensive cars, but still depreciating in many instances. Like looking at attractive or expensive 1988 to 2003 cars today.

 

In the circle of things some might come around. But, for the moment, the current crop gets a "what are you doing that that used car?" The circle is called dogma in some groups.

 

In 1960 I was listening to those old mavins say "Don't waste your time on closed cars. Sonny." Twenty five and thirty year old sedans.

Bernie

[A. Ballard 35R]

1 hour ago, RICHELIEUMOTORCAR said:

 Just had a few minutes this morning to look again. I found these 3 photos.  "Flea Market 1966". Does not say where. Check out the 06 Buick on the trailer. Looks like a Stoddard Dayton in the center of the third photo?

 

Mercer raceabout is 1911 and is most likely #404 RA with engine number 177R. Not sure of location but perhaps Hawk Mountain in Pa.

 

Edited December 13, 2018 by A. Ballard 35R (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

8 hours ago, Hupp36 said:

Known as  a N.Y. city model, I  am still  working on finding the  original owners of  my  1927 Pierce Arrow Model 36  Enclosed Drive  Limo.

I love that muted violet color of the headlight lenses. Do you ever mention the Tesla connection when you are at an auto show?

[edinmass]

The cobalt in the crystal turns purple over time.  Great car. My best, Ed

[ericmac]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Yes, very familiar with that one! It's my humble opinion the 1932 Full Custom Dietrich Sport Phaetons are the most beautiful open cars ever made.........the 33's are nice, but the open fender cars are where it's at for me. That is NOT a common photo, I I thought that the only copies were in my possession..........the driver in the car when this was taken in 1952 or 1953 if memory serves me, is alive and well......in his mid nineties. 

I agree that the 32 Packard 12 Dietrich Phaeton was as good as an automobile ever got. Simply beautiful. 

[edinmass]

The 1932 Custom Dietrich Sport Pheaton is quite simply the best open car ever designed and built in the US. There are only three of them, all in long term collections. They are also fantastic drivers. All of these comments coming from a Pierce Arrow guy. I will admit to having spent some time behind the wheel on one in the past........a life changing experience. My most enjoyable moment was in Palm Beach having breakfast several years ago at 6am. A very low key gentleman came up to me and said Dietrich sure did a great job on that design......interestingly he didn’t own any collector cars. It was fun to enjoy a car that someone off the street truly understood.

Edited December 14, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Hupp36]

2 hours ago, jeff_a said:

I love that muted violet color of the headlight lenses. Do you ever mention the Tesla connection when you are at an auto show?

I  guess  I have  not  mentioned  that  because so  busy showing  the  hand  stitched decor and  18  carat gold  trim on  all the  metal in the  rear  compartment  where  the  owners ride. The  stitching on  the  door  trim  was  hand  done  1  stitch  at  a time. The pattern on the  rear  seat  cushion was reproduced like the  original in the sales  brochure which is  not  here  at  this  time.

[Grimy]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

The cobalt in the crystal turns purple over time.

It's the result of long term UV effect on the MANGANESE in the glass (not crystal) B&L lenses used 1921-28, according to Bernie Weis.

[dep5]

1932 Chrysler Custom Imperial CL dual windshield phaeton by LeBaron. Lost car, last seen in rough neighborhood, NYC

 

[IggyDrives]

 

[alsancle]

Speaking of Dupont.  This car did survive.

 

 

[IggyDrives]

 

[edinmass]

9 hours ago, Grimy said:

It's the result of long term UV effect on the MANGANESE in the glass (not crystal) B&L lenses used 1921-28, according to Bernie Weis.

 

George, I looked it up, you are correct.......having another senior moment. That package should be ready for pick up in the next week or so. Thanks! Ed

[alsancle]

8 hours ago, alsancle said:

Speaking of Dupont.  This car did survive.

 

I don't know how people read the forum.  I use the "unread content" button in the upper right hand corner of the screen.  That gives you a list of topics with new posts across all the forums.   That way I can see everything. 

 

I mention this because I have a feeling that some of us just look in certain sub forums and not the everywhere and miss stuff.    There is a Dupont thread down in the CCCA General that has lots of pictures of this Waterhouse bodied Dupont.

[alsancle]

Moe,  Larry, Curly.

 

 

[edinmass]

The Three Ameigos! The one on the left is Steve Martin. That makes the on on the right Chevy Chase, so you my friend, the one in the middle, MUST be Martin Short. It was a fun day, although seconed in class wasn't our intention! I think I shall  take it for a ride today. Once in  a while I need a Packard road test.......makes me appreciate my Pierce Arrow's more! 😂

 

Lots of people keep asking what we are taking to Pebble next year. Here is a photo of what I have currently in mind............(Yes! It's my car.)

Edited December 14, 2018 by edinmass (see edit history)

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

Lots of people keep asking what we are taking to Pebble next year. Here is a photo of what I have currently in mind............(Yes! It's my car.)

 

 

Did you ever drive that when you were a really big boy?

[edinmass]

13 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Did you ever drive that when you were a really big boy?

 

Nope...........but for the cost of a tune up on your BIG BOY TOY I bought the car!

[Xander Wildeisen]

I drive a Big Boy.

[edinmass]

That photo may get you in trouble! 😎

[SC38dls]

Best looking pickup ever! 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Lets get back to cool old pictures of classic cars, missing or not.

[trimacar]

On ‎12‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 3:48 PM, RICHELIEUMOTORCAR said:

 Just had a few minutes this morning to look again. I found these 3 photos.  "Flea Market 1966". Does not say where. Check out the 06 Buick on the trailer. Looks like a Stoddard Dayton in the center of the third photo?

The Stoddard appears to be the 1910 roadster that was owned by Dave Domidion back in the 1960's....it's still around and in a collection of brass cars outside of Cincinnati....

 

But even I digress.....back to the big Classics!  As has been mentioned, there are people religiously searching for "lost" cars......some that may be lost but now could be found....

[1937hd45]

David, Thank you for IDing the Stoddard Dayton, here is a better photo I took at the Ridgefield meet in 1967. Just noticed the headlight and wheel of the 1912 T next to it. It has been in my garage since 1983. The year before Dave Domidion drove up in his 1931 Rolls Royce Ascot, he was really into the 1931 Rolls and finally had one of every body type Rolls offered that year. Dave and his wife were really great people, always had time to chat with everyone starting when you were an interested kid of a bit older working on the Atwell Windswept Rolls. I miss him and all the other hobby people from that era. Bob 

[Xander Wildeisen]

What are some of the lost historical race cars from that time period?

[1937hd45]

1 hour ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

What are some of the lost historical race cars from that time period?

You better start a separate thread to deal with all the race cars that started out as one and are now three or more. Bob 

[34LaSalleClubSedan]

Yes, Right-On 1937hd45. This Great Link is for American CCCA Classics!!! Not Micro Cars,  A Hudson  Street Rod  P.U. or Race Cars.

[jeff_a]

This one is lost: a Model A Duesenberg made into a service vehicle for the Duesenberg California Co., but in my opinion it was tastefully done. There is a photo of it from 1924, in an article about lost classics in Hemmings Classic Car 2013, from A-C-D Museum.

 

https://assets.hemmings.com/story_image/497711-870-0.jpg?rev=2

 

 

 

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by jeff_a (see edit history)

[jeff_a]

I read that King Alphonso of Spain had a Duesenberg Hibbard & Darrin Town Car. Did it survive?

 

[West Peterson]

Ad from the Summer 1954 issue of Antique Automobile. Can anyone tell me where this one ended up?

Before anyone comments on the price being low, that was a heck of a LOT of money for a Classic car in 1954. Well more than many if not most Duesenbergs were fetching at the time.

[John_Mereness]

On 12/13/2018 at 11:23 PM, alsancle said:

Speaking of Dupont.  This car did survive.

 

 

Yes, this DuPont Waterhouse Convertible Victoria exists today, yet in some ways could cause confusion as often people do not think about restored cars being re-restored and having color changes done on them.   When this was first restored it was done in dark Brown with Red wheels (to match its factory build sheet - which interestingly build sheets exist for quite a few DuPonts) and now the car has has been re-restored in tu-tone colors. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

On 12/13/2018 at 10:05 PM, dep5 said:

1932 Chrysler Custom Imperial CL dual windshield phaeton by LeBaron. Lost car, last seen in rough neighborhood, NYC

 

There was a Chrysler Imperial Touring (w/rollup dual secondary windshield) in the Karl Kleve estate here in Cincinnati - around  2005 or so (it sat outside for years and was quite rough with many missing parts, though in other ways while needing restoration was a PRIZE via not being too far gone) - not sure what happened to it.   I want to say it was black with cove red insert.   Additionally, there was a dissembled Minerva Convertible Sedan, Cord L-19 Phaeton, 31 Cadillac V-12 Opera Coupe - Dick Shappy restored this, 30 or 31 Cadillac V-16 Limousine (that is now in Dayton, OH being restored  https://books.google.com/books?id=ajrTAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA8&lpg=PA8&dq=karl+kleve+estate+cincinnati+auction&source=bl&ots=Da0ZGNRo3G&sig=cjWO0ZbAYWu7lK0q6aijKUILuV8&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwihkvTp_6LfAhVST98KHW8hBiw4ChDoATAKegQIBBAB#v=onepage&q=karl kleve estate cincinnati auction&f=false ), 36 Cadillac V-16 Limousinge (Karl's mother bought that new), a super rare Daimler, Bentley, Bugatti parts, and..  Karl liked to take things apart and at times then mate them together with other projects, and .... This is one of the more famous stories/litigation:  https://www.carthrottle.com/post/wb6773m/      https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2016/04/19/after-protracted-legal-battle-first-built-ferrari-375-plus-going-to-new-owner/

[John_Mereness]

I hear rumors about the Octo-Auto every couple of years - it is a Cincinnati, Southern Indiana, Northern Kentucky legend. 

[1937hd45]

CCCA Restoration question: Well maybe two questions, are CCCA and Pebble Beach judging rules the same or is one considered to be more desirable? If the original color and upholstery along with top material are known and they are changed to meet the current owners taste are they cause for deductions? Bob 

[John_Mereness]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:56 PM, edinmass said:

 

Looks like the car I bought about eight years ago in Amherst Ohio. (Just outside of Cleveland.) Same year, series, and body style. Purchased it out of a barn from a working farm. Restoration was started. It was mostly apart. We cut it up, and sold off almost every piece. The entire body and all the tin went to replace the Coachwork on a very rusty car in Utica New York. My best guess it a ninty five  percent chance it’s the car I had.

Ed, maybe 20 years ago, a friend and a client of our law firm had what I thought was an 1934 836-A Club Sedan - his name was RC Fogle (they lived in Northern KY (Fort Mitchell) and had most of the cars stored in Cincinnati.  I had heard about the car PA sitting out under a tarp for eons, though when the time came for him to sell (pre-handling of estate) I never took a second to go look at the car.

 

[John_Mereness]

15 hours ago, 1937hd45 said:

CCCA Restoration question: Well maybe two questions, are CCCA and Pebble Beach judging rules the same or is one considered to be more desirable? If the original color and upholstery along with top material are known and they are changed to meet the current owners taste are they cause for deductions? Bob 

CCCA - does not matter (nor AACA or ....).  

 

As to Pebble Beach - sort of sad when somethings that are so famous make it to the lawn and are not restored to match their original factory photos (someone else will have to speak how that is factored into or not into prizes)

 

When I was doing the 1939 LaSalle Bohman & Schwartz, we were having upholstery color matched, sending parts to the paint lab to have color matched, and... - lots of good old fashioned get a magnifying glass detective work.   I was sort of bummed to that for example its original brand tires were not reproduced and ...

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[trimacar]

Well, as to judging, the three mentioned:

 

-AACA, cosmetic, mechanical condition not very important as long as all components are correct and shiny.  Must drive on to show field, no matter how poorly.

 

-CCCA, a more comprehensive judging that gives weight to car components (lights, instruments, engine performance) and thus (in my opinion) better judges true condition of car. You can buy a recent CCCA award winning car sight unseen and feel confident it's a great car.

 

-Pebble Beach and similar, cosmetic perfection but also must have a pedigree, or be a rare one-off, for top prizes.  Mechanically, some kudos for pre-show tour, and must drive to awards stand.  Money spent to detail ( particularly after tour/drive) probably more than annual income average for a family.

 

There's a huge amount of money spent on the big competitions.  Good for them, glad they can entertain the rest of us, and there are a few of the high rollers who actually like cars.

 

Thanks to all for contributions to this thread....