What are some of the great "missing" Classics, prewar American?

[edinmass]

John, thr 836A I bought was never left outside. It was always garaged from new. As far as restoring a car to its factory look, if it’s possible to do, the current thought and trend is put it back exactly as it was when new down to the last minute detail. To be honest, I think most cars were well done in the day, and collectors today over restore, over color,(I’m guilty), and many put too much junk on the car........mirrors, wheel covers, lights, trunks, and assorted do dads. Currently the plane Jane look is what is taking home trophies, if that is what your thing is.

[8E45E]

Do any of these six V16 Cadillacs at the very bottom of this page survive?  https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/v6optns.htm

 

Craig

[Curti]

 To me Nicola Bulgari's restoration shop is the epitome of a shop that does the research and restores the cars the way they were when they sat on the dealer showroom floor, no better no worse.  NO BLING !!! 

[ericmac]

2 hours ago, Curti said:

 To me Nicola Bulgari's restoration shop is the epitome of a shop that does the research and restores the cars the way they were when they sat on the dealer showroom floor, no better no worse.  NO BLING !!! 

I agree, though I notice his cars simply look right, every time. 

[alsancle]

I think no on this one.   Some of you know what this two RR is all about.  Built in Yonkers NY in the late 20s by Gus Schumacher,   Prospect Garage/Schumacher Motor Services.

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

13 hours ago, edinmass said:

John, the 836A I bought was never left outside. It was always garaged from new. As far as restoring a car to its factory look, if it’s possible to do, the current thought and trend is put it back exactly as it was when new down to the last minute detail. To be honest, I think most cars were well done in the day, and collectors today over restore, over color,(I’m guilty), and many put too much junk on the car........mirrors, wheel covers, lights, trunks, and assorted do dads. Currently the plane Jane look is what is taking home trophies, if that is what your thing is.

I was somewhat criticized for putting the LaSalle back to what it was new - apparently it does not "pop" on a the show field.   Interestingly, the cry to put whitewalls on it is overwhelming - and someone else can do that if they want down the road (it was delivered new with blackwalls though).  The dark Maroon undercarriage, Maroon wheels, large chrome hubcaps, and blackwalls basically "suck-up" the light and makes what is a very light colored car look very dark.  One thing I did do after Amelia Island Concours was change the inside of the fender skirt color from Maroon to Silver (the Maroon was reflecting in the hubcap and the rear wheels were just lost in darkness).  It could make a difference if the tires had something shiny on them - I basically wire toothbrushed them to get all the mold release and protective coating off (a super fun couple of days job).  When you look at the original Bohman & Schwartz photos, the car is in brilliant sunlight and strategically positioned accordingly. 

[alsancle]

Another view of the Lincoln which we think didn't make it. 

 

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[alsancle]

We have a thread on Elcar somwhere.  Anybody ever see one of these?

[John_Mereness]

11 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Do any of these six V16 Cadillacs at the very bottom of this page survive?  https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/v6optns.htm

 

Craig

A numver of V-16's survive that very few people ever see or know about - Example: I helped Thailand's Royal Family with a V-16 Town Car that car they have owned from new. 

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

I was somewhat criticized for putting the LaSalle back to what it was new - apparently it does not "pop" on a the show field.

 

I would like to talk to anyone criticizing the restoration of that car.   Anybody that knows anything about cars besides superficial bling knows you nailed it.

[alsancle]

Not to go too far astray, but this did survive.

 

[John_Mereness]

11 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Do any of these six V16 Cadillacs at the very bottom of this page survive?  https://www.newcadillacdatabase.org/static/CDB/Dbas_txt/v6optns.htm

 

Craig

The 1931 Cadillac V-16 Town Brougham I believe is still actually a missing car or cars - the car that exists today was created from a similar body style Town Car that  has about about 90% plus the same characteristics (or at least that is what I gathered from people showing me pictures during it's restoration).

[John_Mereness]

6 minutes ago, alsancle said:

Another view of the Lincoln which we think didn't make it. 

 

 

There is a spot in my garage that screams to have this parked in it !

[alsancle]

Just now, John_Mereness said:

There is a spot in my garage that screams to have this parked in it !

 

Kick ass, isnt' it?

[alsancle]

This is one of the pictures West turned up and I think he referred to it a few pages back.   The car did survive.

 

[twin6]

On 12/12/2018 at 8:09 PM, West Peterson said:

While I'm really enjoying seeing the contemporary photos from relatively recent car shows (post 1942), may I request that a new thread with those types of photos be started? The focus of this thread, if I'm not mistaken (David correct me if I'm wrong) is to post photos of cars that are for the most part not known to exist, or if they do, only known by a scant few. Perhaps the new thread could be called, "Where are they now?"

 

I'd be happy to start one, which hopefully won't take anything away from this thread, but rather will allow it to stay on its original focus.

[gossp]

11 minutes ago, alsancle said:

We have a thread on Elcar somwhere.  Anybody ever see one of these?

 

Wonderful cars. This one is not too far from me:

https://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/cars-for-sale/elcar/unspecified/2158932.html

 

it was on Craigslist with lots of great pics (it appears to be very nice) for about a year but recently made it to Hemmings with one crappy photo. On cl it had a $50k asking price. 

[alsancle]

Not a Classic, although arguable (Ed will argue against it), it did survive.

 

 

[alsancle]

1 minute ago, gossp said:

Wonderful cars. This one is not too far from me:

 

I know there are a couple (as in very few) of the earlier cars like the 26 you posted.  The picture I posted was a very late (1930) model with the big eight.  I can't ever remember seeing one.

[John_Mereness]

13 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Kick ass, isnt' it?

By the way - note that this Lincoln is a rear mount spare tire car.  It is interesting the comments between my dad's 1935 Auburn 851 Phaeton with sidemounts and built on rear trunk  and my 1936 Auburn 852 Phaeton with spare tire inside the built on rear trunk.    People like the formality of the sidemounts, but others like the flow of the car without-sidemounts.  Dad's car also has whee disk covers over the wires and mine currently has the covers sitting on the basement shelf as have not yet mounted them - a lot of people like the wires and a lot of people do not.     My opinion is that a with a "modern" car you start seeing the deletion of sidmeounts and ....

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

My dad's Auburn has the hubcaps which I argued hard for.   He still has one set of the period optional stainless snap on spoke covers but I thought the caps were better and it was one of those times he listened to me.

 

On the sidemount vs rear spare,  I honestly didn't know until the last maybe 5 years or so that people (a good number) prefer side mounts to rear spare.   In the Mercedes world,  a rear spare 540k is an extra 500-800k on the price and that was were I got my mindset from.

[alsancle]

I think I asked Jason about this once and he thought it was alive but unrestored.   If you are really really sharp, you can pick out what is in the background,  which also survived and made it Pebble eventually.

 

[gossp]

3 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

I know there are a couple (as in very few) of the earlier cars like the 26 you posted.  The picture I posted was a very late (1930) model with the big eight.  I can't ever remember seeing one.

 

Years ago there was one I remember as being huge (I was young) still in Elkhart.  I always thought S Ray Miller had one as well, but the one I am remembering was not nearly good enough to have been his. 

[alsancle]

Anyone know whatever happened to this?

 

[John_Mereness]

17 minutes ago, alsancle said:

My dad's Auburn has the hubcaps which I argued hard for.   He still has one set of the period optional stainless snap on spoke covers but I thought the caps were better and it was one of those times he listened to me.

 

On the sidemount vs rear spare,  I honestly didn't know until the last maybe 5 years or so that people (a good number) prefer side mounts to rear spare.   In the Mercedes world,  a rear spare 540k is an extra 500-800k on the price and that was were I got my mindset from.

Glad you argued - Curt and I went out on a quest to find an original "factory" photo of an 851/852  Boattail Auburn without the covers (and pulled in a good 6-8 other people) - we have not been able to find one in 10 years now of looking.

 

We started out with the 1931 Cadillac's - they are pretty glitzy cars and you can have one dripping with factory accessories.  That being said though the 1931 Cadilac's were replaced with a 1930 Franklin 147 Dietrich Speedster 4-Door Convertible Sedan - a rear mount spare tire car. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

4 minutes ago, John_Mereness said:

Glad you argued - Curt and I went out on a quest to find an original "factory" photo of an 851/852  Boattail Auburn without the covers (and pulled in a good 6-8 other people) - we have not been able to find one in 10 years now of looking.

 

We started out with the 1931 Cadillac's - they are pretty glitzy cars and you can have one dripping with factory accessories.  That being said though the 1931 Cadilac's were replaced with a 1930 Franklin 147 Dietrich Speedster 4-Door Convertible Sedan - a rear mount spare tire car. 

 

Ask Curt about the chromed wires (not the snap on stainless).  I've seen those popping up on cars lately.

 

There are some really cool Franklin's and I may need to dabble in one before I run out of steam.    How many of those convertibles still exist?  I remember the one in Washington state for sale,  and the one that Shawn was selling (was that yours?)

[dep5]

17 hours ago, John_Mereness said:

There was a Chrysler Imperial Touring (w/rollup dual secondary windshield) in the Karl Kleve estate here in Cincinnati - around  2005 or so (it sat outside for years and was quite rough with many missing parts, though in other ways while needing restoration was a PRIZE via not being too far gone) - not sure what happened to it.   I want to say it was black with cove red insert.

 

Yes,  one of the 14 1932 Chrysler Custom Imperial CL dual windshield phaetons by LeBaron sold in 1932. At some time in its life it was shipped back to the factory and renumbered/modified and resold as a 1933 CL*. It is now safe in Michigan. Many of the parts were stolen from it and showed up at Hershey during early 1980's, offered by a vendor from nearby Dayton. 

[1937hd45]

I really like the front of the L29, not so much the Coffin Nose, is there a front view of this car? Bob 

 

 

[John_Mereness]

22 minutes ago, alsancle said:

 

Ask Curt about the chromed wires (not the snap on stainless).  I've seen those popping up on cars lately.

 

There are some really cool Franklin's and I may need to dabble in one before I run out of steam.    How many of those convertibles still exist?  I remember the one in Washington state for sale,  and the one that Shawn was selling (was that yours?)

If I recall correctly there is at least one factory photos of at least one Auburn 851/852 with Chrome Wire Wheels - not on an 851/852 Boattail though (at least a factory photo has not shown itself). I am not sure where the stainless spoke covers came from (and not sure I recall seeing a factory photo of a car with them) other than I do know "reproduction" sets were made in the late 1970's or 1980's.   As a sidnote:  Some of those chrome wheels you have been seeing are not chrome - they are spay on finish (a fellow doing Boattails has been doing such recently - takes an incredible condition wheel though to get them to come out looking fabulous). 

 

Shawn has sold our former 1930 Franklin twice now - not the highest sale price paid for a Franklin, but close each time (a factory Pursuit I want to say went higher, a 31 Speedster Convertible Sedan, possibly a Pirate, and V-12's tend to be more serious money than most people would imagine - but they are also incredibly rare, impressive, and powerful cars).   Our car had some really bad stuff happen to it when its restoration was started in the late 1960's (a chrome shop fire), but was basically a one family owned car from new and had less than 5K miles on it.   I want to say there are 7 surviving 1930 and 1931 Franklin 4-door Convertible Speedsters.

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[ericmac]

1 hour ago, alsancle said:

 

Kick ass, isnt' it?

Yes, yes it is.

I have often wondered if this survived.  Seems like if you wanted to go to Pebble Beach and win with an American car, this would give you one heck of a shot at the podium. 

[Curti]

If I recall correctly there is at least one factory photos of at least one Auburn 851/852 with Chrome Wire Wheels - not on an 851/852 Boattail though (at least a factory photo has not shown itself). I am not sure where the stainless spoke covers came from (and not sure I recall seeing a factory photo of a car with them) other than I do know "reproduction" sets were made in the late 1970's or 1980's.   As a sidnote:  Some of those chrome wheels you have been seeing are not chrome - they are spay on finish (a fellow doing Boattails has been doing such recently - takes an incredible condition wheel though to get them to come out looking fabulous). 

 

The part number for chrome wire wheels is : E10766  They were available on all Auburn body styles, speedsters included.   All  speedsters  came from the factory with wheel disks. Probably the chrome wires were dealer installed.  

 The stainless spokes  originated at J.C. Whitney and Western Auto.

 

[edinmass]

4 hours ago, alsancle said:

Not a Classic, although arguable (Ed will argue against it), it did survive.

 

 

 

Interesting car, interesting history, and I agree, not a full CCCA Classic. But nowadays they let everything in, so I expect that it will make the cut. 

[John_Mereness]

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[alsancle]

2 hours ago, Curti said:

The part number for chrome wire wheels is : E10766  They were available on all Auburn body styles, speedsters included.   All  speedsters  came from the factory with wheel disks. Probably the chrome wires were dealer installed.  

 The stainless spokes  originated at J.C. Whitney and Western Auto.

 

 

The stainless spokes were patented in 1930 and assigned to Budd Wheel company.   They are probably about as "period correct" as the full chrome wheels.   Of course, I don't  like either.

 

Btw, who do you think was the mastermind behind the reproductions in the 80s?

Edited December 16, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[edinmass]

Cadillac offered the stainless spoke covers in 30 & 31.

[West Peterson]

Chevrolet offered the spoke covers in 1932... maybe 1931 as well.

[alsancle]

1 hour ago, edinmass said:

 

Interesting car, interesting history, and I agree, not a full CCCA Classic. But nowadays they let everything in, so I expect that it will make the cut. 

 

I agree with you Ed.   Doesn't fit the strict definition that you and I believe in.   But it is still cooler than a 48 woodie.

[alsancle]

Chrome wheels with BLACK tires can look pretty good on open fender cars.  The later aerodynamic cars like the Auburn look better when the hub caps.

 

Edited December 16, 2018 by alsancle (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Edited December 16, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[mike brady]

Did any of the L29 Cords with slanted windshields survive ?