30DodgePanel Posted December 6, 2018 Share Posted December 6, 2018 Do any of you Continental guys know of any literature that exists for the Dodge Brothers Senior Six Continental engine that was used ? I believe Chrysler had them labeled the 2249, 2251, and 2252. According to my literature Continental had it as the 8R. My research on trucks has me looking into these engines that were used in both the Senior Sixes and in some larger Dodge trucks, buses and motor coaches. Mostly over 2 tons. I'm looking for any literature or factory info to prove or disprove some information in regards to the relationship between the two parties. Any help is appreciated. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) Just read your above...8R??? Did find and attempted to read thru your earlier post under Dodge Trucks, but the more I read the less I knew.; not unusual in my own researching... So---I have a 38 Victor gasket catalog that, in a Cont'l engine index section, shows: AD. (Dodge Senior)---had gskt #668---pg 105 (Dodge Section) 12M, 14M (Dodge) same gasket, same page # 8R is listed with several other engines as "various", with gasket #350, pg 86 (Cont'l section). I did find a page in my notes listing 8R makes using, and while Dodge was not there that page failed to list which of my replacement parts catalogs I reviewed. so may've been a more cursory search ... In th Dodge section is: Dodge Bros entry: (Pass) 6cyl. 1927-28. Senior 6. 31/4x41/2; (note semicolon) 1929-30. 33/8x41/2. (Continental 12M) (Truck) Models ED-OD-TD-GE-HE-OE-RE-TE 2-3Ton 1927-31 (Bus) Models JD-YD-JE-YE-880-881 1927-31 A 1936 catalog listing Cont'l bores/stroke does show the 8R as 33/8x31/2....both the 12M and 14M are listed ass both 31/4x41/2 AND 33/8x341/2, with no engine # for a change, which could mean they were built simultaneously (???), but... That 36 catalog , under Cont'l valves, lists "12M to eng #11889, 14M" on one line; 12M after #11889 on the next line---looks like springs differ...12M,14M take same mains, no rods shown (poured?)..8R has different bearings incl rods (inserted?0) My apologies if you've already gone thrt this, or if it complicates things... .ADDITION---OH,NO--No!--stupidly pulled a 29 piston catalog---this lists Dodge Senior 27-28 with code Acre, which is Cont'l 10E, 12E, 15E 6cyl 31/4 bore...AND Sr, Std., Vic, no yrs listed, code Affray, which is Cont'l 12N, 15U, 11E and 16C 6cyl 33/8 bore... This begins to look like a quagmire.. I've never understood Cont'ls engine ID system; it's not unusual for one set of gaskets to cover two to fifteen or so engine designations, which probably meana they issued the same engine with some minor or major twaeks... With sympathy, Bud Edited December 7, 2018 by Bud Tierney Additions (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 (edited) Thank you for your reply Bud. I think we can figure this out if we all put our collective hats together in conjunction with any literature that each of us may have or may obtain in the near future. Here is what I have that may help shed some light. First I want to mention I may have jumped the gun on saying it was a 8R, you'll notice that 12K is another 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 set up that is listed BUT it's a 8 cylinder engine. This info is taken from a mix of data. Scans are from a 1930 Automotive Industries magazine Feb 1930 and the Timelines I've typed out are from Dodge Brothers Club articles put together by John Bittence and others. Again, you'll notice in the scans below that the only other 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 besides the 8R is an engine that was listed as a Continental 12K 8 cyl. (Note the DBC article photos are not posted here without permission of author in order to protect Club data but rather I'm simply posting and making mention of the main points for discussion only) Also notice in the scans that the Dodge Bros Senior Six has this engine labeled as being they're "own" (but was produced by Continental or was it?). Again, this is in 1930 so did this engine come in house at this point? Dodge Bros trucks also have another section (in the Auto Industries magazine) showing a 2 ton with 150" wb and a 3 ton with 135" wb (photo not provided here) that shows a 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 set up but does not mention who the engine was made by. Note the 135" may be labeled incorrectly as the OD was actually 137" wb. TD note mention in this issue of magazine but is 162" wb for reference. Timeline according to DBC Articles : 1927 Car serial # according to Dodge was IS10000 This is the beginning when Chrysler had these DB seniors and trucks with a "2249" as they're label for this engine with the 3 1/4 x 4 1/2 . 5/10/1927 First DB Senior Six produced 6/23/1927 ED 2 ton trucks get this same engine 07/23/1927 OD & TD 3 ton trucks get this same engine 14720 built (DBC article) It is unknown for certain if that total for Continental engines was for passenger cars only or for both cars and trucks. This is part of what I'm trying to find a conclusive answer on. 1928 Car serial # using DB numbering system was IS 24717 1/2/1928 the "2251" with 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 was introduced for the Senior lineup. 4435 built 1930 Car serial # changed to S prefix. First car was labeled S50001 This is the beginning of the "2252" same engine with slight modifications. 10486 built In summarizing : What we know: We know the size, the approximate dates and Dodge Brothers vehicles it was used in. We know the changes (can get more specific if needed) What we don't know: We don't know what Continental labeled them as Dodge Brothers made the changes (IE 2249, 2251, 2252) Was the first DB engine that was labeled 2249 listed by Continental a 12E, 12K, 12M or 12N 14M etc..? Was the second DB engine that was labeled 2251 listed by Continental a 12E, 12K, 12M or 12N 14M etc..? Was the last DB Senior Six engine used that was labeled 2252 listed by Continental a 12E, 12K, 12M or 12N 14M etc..? My conclusion (at this point, although research may change my mind) is that the 12E , 12M, 12N all "MAY" be the same engine. I believe we can (for now) count out the 12K and 14M however. I believe we should try to prove or disprove if any 12's were the correct engine first in order to walk through a process of elimination. There has to be something out there that explains what the Continental engine coding meant.... The answers may also come from many, many cross referencing studies to unlock the key (as I'm sure you're aware). IF anyone has a Automotive Industries Statistical Issue from 1927 1928 or 1929 it would be most helpful. Please post the info if you have it. Edited December 7, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 (1) I hate myself when I get into one of these quagmires... (2) I don't follow mainlines, so I know nothing about Dodge etc production,; at my age, you'll forgive me for not wanting to know... (3) Replacement parts catalogs, which I use for engine IDs, are weak reeds to lean on---errors, misprints, published too early to catch production changes (factory inability to provide enough or any of originally stated engine, orig eng found unsuitable or cheaper better engine suddenly available, ad nauseum)...yet containing reams of info, so shouldn't be ignored... (4) Agree that a particular engine issued under various designation, probably with tweaks or even user code letter(??)... (5) Engines found in cars/trucks don't match catalog listings often enough to think maybe if Cont'l contracted to provide engine X and something happened to prod or they could provide engine XX variation more profitably they weren't above swapping them...on the other hand, variations might've been cheaper/more available, and a drop-in fit, when re-power needed, ad nauseum... (6) As said, you have my sympathy... All that being said, I will go thru my period catalogs to see what other confusions/complexities they show, which they will... NOTE: If not already known, the period trade journals (The Automobile, The Motor Truck etc) published annual specs/price lists, many of which include wheelbases, tonnage, b/s, HP etc...hathitrust has many to 1922-23 on full vfew, but later are limited view, which I'm not familiar with. They might have your statistical issues...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 7, 2018 Author Share Posted December 7, 2018 I understand and thanks for your sympathy... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 7, 2018 Share Posted December 7, 2018 Will try to feed finding in chron order of catalogs... The 29 is Accuralite Company, Muskegon, Mich, Nov 1929 (pistons, quoted above-)--next is 1930 McCord gaskets (title page gone, but my notes refer to it as 1930)...lists Dodge 6 (pass) model Senior 1927 31/4x41/2 1928-30 33/8x41/2 (Trk) Graham Bros Bodge Bros 2-3 Ton (Bus) JEB, JEX...this lists two head gaskets : 1927 and early 28 and late 28-30...somewhere later is an engine change in Feb 28 listing engine #, but lost in scribbling, will show up again... The Cont'l section in that catalog has no matching head gasket number and no listing for 12M/14M, which MIGHT mean engine was not offered to general trade...(8R is listed with different head gasket)... I assume you'll eventually want copies of those applicable for your records; I have no scanner, and after a meltdown my set transmits pix in MB instead of KB, but I will fiddle with it...eventually... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 8, 2018 Author Share Posted December 8, 2018 (edited) No copies needed at this point. I think a mention of reference is sufficient for now... As for the JEB JEX two head gaskets.. That makes since because the 1927 ( DB Senior Six 2249 ) would have been the smaller bore 3 1/4. From 1928 on it would have been the larger 3 3/8 bore ( DB Senior Six 2251 and ending with the 2252 in 1930 more than likely ). Good start... thanks again Edited December 8, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 1930 Mann Precision Piston Pins catalog (title page gone) lists Dodge Senior 6 1927 with "Cont'l Spec" 31/4 bore---pin # matches Cont'l listing for 11E, 12E, 15E Senior, Vict, Std 28-29 with "Cont'l" 33/8... Truck 1927-28 2Ton with Cont'l Srec" 31/4.....pin # for the 33/8 matches Cont'l listing fo 12K, 15C, 16C, 18E....the 12K is an 8, illustrating that just because a part interchangeable doesn't mean that engine used by Dodge... .A 1930 Jadson valve catalog didn't show any connection... 1930 Babbitted Rods catalog no connection... June 1932 King Quality Products Co, St Louis, catalog more interesting... Senior 6 1927 to Feb 1928 31/4 Senior 6 after Feb 28-30, Vict 6 130, Std 6 140, 141, DA 1928-30. 33/8.. Trucks--lists some 40+ models, 1928-31, from 1/2 to 3 Ton with the 33/8 engine...in truck section notes "for prices see Dodge"... The piston # for the 31/4 matches Cont'l 10E, 12E, 15E, 22A and an A16 , which' last is probably a misprint... The piston number of the 33/8 matches some 15 or so Cont'ls, only some listed above. I think---THINK--the "Special" indicates an engine made for one user, not intended to be offered to the trade... The 30 NcCord and other covers may be buried upstairs---I have a 41 McCord B-! that refers back to an earlier "Guide A", but there're no such reference to any earlier catalog in the 1930..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 I have a King (similar to yours I'm guessing) that I cmpletely forgot about until now. It dates from 1918-36 so some homework and cross referencing will be done on my part. Also have a 1909-37 McCord Guide A-2 that should be here around Tuesday/Wed of next week. Will post findings (IF I can make heads or tails) as soon as I can. Still haven't found anything that is clear cut explanation on these Continental codes but I think we are on the right track. Good stuff. Thanks a ton for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 9, 2018 Share Posted December 9, 2018 That 32 King bus and truck list GRAHAM BROS 31/4 engine---1928 OD, ODR, ODX, Yd, TDR, TDX, Ed, EDR, EDX 2T, JD, YD bus 33/8 engine---1928 Merchants Express SE, Commercial DE: BE, IE 11/4T; ME, LE 13/4T; OE, TE 2T; GE,HE, RE 3T; Achool bus 12-21 pass; JE, JEB, JER, JEX, YE, YEX bus, DODGE no listings for the 31/4 engine 33/8 engine---1929-31 SE, SEW 1/2Ton; DE, DEF,DEW 3/4T; EE, LEF, BEW, IE, IEF, IEW 11/4T; ME, MER, MEW, LE, LER, LEW 13/4T; ED, EDR, EDX, OE, OER, OEX, TE, TER, TEX, 2T; GE, GES, GEX, HE, HES, HEX, RE, RES, REX 3T; DA1 3/4-11/2T; DB1 2-3T; F35, F36 11/2T; JE, JEB, JER, JEX, YE, YEX bus.. Will recheck those earlier catalogs for Graham Bros trucks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 9, 2018 Author Share Posted December 9, 2018 (edited) Boy you are getting in the mud now lol... Glad to see I'm not the only one going bonkers... (you have my sympathy as well) Some of those trucks were mentioned as 3 3/8 but most are not the Continental engine that was used in the Senior Six and select trucks. I have the trucks figured out that used the Continental engine. The problem I'm having is figuring out what Continental labeled these engines. I'm focusing on the 12M and 14M only right now. The reason is because these are the only two Continentals that were used in the 2249 (3 1/4 bore) and 2251 (3 3/8 bore that later was labeled 2252 by Chrysler). All the other engines mentioned ( 10E, 12E, 15E, 22A, 30A and A16) are for the other vehicles listed such as Peerless, REO etc... Not 100% yet and it's more of a hunch really because these are the only two engines that are mentioned from 1927-1930 for the Senior Six Once I can prove that the Continental engine provided to Chrysler for the Dodge Senior Six was a 12M or 14M then I can really begin to narrow my search for more streamlined data like photos, catalogs and years the engine was made. Edited December 15, 2018 by 30DodgePanel Had ALL instead of "Some of these trucks" line two. (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Here's an odd bit... None of my three early gasket catalogs (30McC. 38 Vic, 41 McC, each 300+ pgs) show any 12M/14M in their Cont'l motor sections---nor does 12M/14M appear in Cont'l lists in other 1929, 30, 33 and 34 catalogs---understandable if 12M/14M sold solely to Dodge... BUT---1932 King Prod DOES show 12M/14M in the Cont'l engine section, as if motor/s used by trade, and people'd be looking for parts under the Cont'l designation rather than looking under Dodge...listings carried into 36 and 1940 editions ..' I think I'll eyeball some of the period catalogs to see if 12M/14M appear under any other makes... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 14 hours ago, Bud Tierney said: Here's an odd bit... None of my three early gasket catalogs (30McC. 38 Vic, 41 McC, each 300+ pgs) show any 12M/14M in their Cont'l motor sections---nor does 12M/14M appear in Cont'l lists in other 1929, 30, 33 and 34 catalogs---understandable if 12M/14M sold solely to Dodge... BUT---1932 King Prod DOES show 12M/14M in the Cont'l engine section, as if motor/s used by trade, and people'd be looking for parts under the Cont'l designation rather than looking under Dodge...listings carried into 36 and 1940 editions ..' I think I'll eyeball some of the period catalogs to see if 12M/14M appear under any other makes... Great work. I think this is the type of narrowing down process that is exactly needed. Very good points you're touching on there... Bud, do you have a book called "Continental Motors - It's Motors and It's People" by William Wagner? I have one on order that I found on eBay for $10 that should be here by the end of the week and hoping it sheds some light on things. If you don't have a copy it may be something you're interested in...will let you know once I receive it. I'm hoping that it goes in depth into the labeling of engines and specifics we're asking about here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 (edited) Do any of your McCord catalogs show a truck reference page like this ? The picture was taken from the internet (another recent eBay purchase) so I apologize it's not a very good photo. Again, it should be here by this weekend.. I'm hopeful this is something different than what you have so it fills in the blanks as it looks like it may.. Research is costly btw … $$$.. Edited December 11, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 11, 2018 Share Posted December 11, 2018 Your McCord page pictured is the format used in my 1928-40 B-1 (per cover) issue....but my Fargo listing has almost 40 entries...the Farr listing seems the same...in mine Farr is followed by Fay & Bowen with only 4 entries at the bottom of page 98; page 99 is a whole page of Federal listings... I'd meant to mention the Cont'l book...I ran across a copy in a bookstore, but was disappointed in that it didn't seem to include a comprehensive list of when engines introduced or individual production info, but it may well have mention of the Dodge contract/s and'm sure it contains a wealth of Cont'l history...... there's a ready market for them in case it disappoints re' Dodge... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 11, 2018 Author Share Posted December 11, 2018 This issue of McCord was advertised as 1909-1937 A-2 so it will be interesting to see the differences and to see if anything new or useful comes forward once it arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 Referring back to the Auto Industries 1930 edition I have: There seems to be a missing engine in the Continental listing in the front of the magazine on the page I provided previously. Later in this magazine under trucks I found what is listed as a 2 1/2 ton under Seldon trucks model UNIT 37 that carried a Continental C15 that is a match for the 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 but it isn't in the lineup of Continental engines listed on the page I provided originally and am supplying again here for comparison. This is the only vehicle I can find that carried the C15. Whether or not that was a code used for Seldon only may shed light on some answers... If it was a code used for TRUCKS with 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 that would be helpful to know also as the Dodge Brothers trucks have the same size engine listed but built as their "OWN" Remember, earlier we found the 8R under the Senior Six. Does this possibly mean that Continental had a way of labeling passenger cars with a different label for the same maker of trucks in ones lineup (IE Dodge Brothers) ? I do want to make note here that if you look under United Trucks Model 30C 1 1/2 ton you'll notice this truck has the 8R also which throws a wrench into that theory but should be noted. Also, and this is important... when I look at a Dodge Brothers Club article about trucks that used the Senior Six engine by John Bittence he states that in regards to the later TRUCKS (GE RE HE) "In 1930 the Senior engine was discontinued in favor of the Chrysler Six". So it looks to me like this is THE critical point at which the Car was still labeled a 8R but the trucks are listed as "OWN" meaning they used the Chrysler six by this point in the magazines issue in Feb 1930. I'm only noting here for reference in order to hopefully have it all in one place to compare and to make note incase it becomes a question later. The 3rd scan listed below is highlighted yellow with the two Dodge Brothers trucks that used the "OWN" engine. Sorry, scanner would not allow me to fit full page showing "Dodge Brothers" so I highlighted the row for you instead. What can you tell me about C15 ? How many cars and trucks does this match if any.. I don't want to waste your time with a question that my be a mute point but it may come into play later. Again, this is later in 1930 so by this time Dodge Bros were labeling the CAR engine the 2252 version and trucks were using the Chrysler not Continental engine (what ever that label was..). Don't mean to be so damned redundant but I just wanted to make note because this will come into play later once we find out what the 2249 version was actually labeled by Continental for Senior Six passenger car and once we find out what the Continental code was for DB trucks. At this point we are simply working our way back the best we can starting with 1930. Man,,, a 1927 and 1928 Automotive Industries Statistical Issue sure would come in handy here. That would be a huge help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 Starting to think that internally Continentals slogan according to the engineers must have been jokingly "Continental Motors,,, Where We Confuse Mechanics, Salespersons and Consumers alike " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) Received both books today and nothing new yet. Do you have any McCord listings showing what Continental engine used McCord parts # 5198 or #5489 ? That's the only thing so far I can see that may give an answer. Edited December 12, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 (1) I assume Cont'l must've Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 12, 2018 Share Posted December 12, 2018 Geez.. system sent my whole reply off into the aether somewhere...will try again later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 12, 2018 Author Share Posted December 12, 2018 (edited) Cylinder Head Gasket for Dodge part # 201646 used on truck models ED, JD, YD, OD, TD, GE, HE, OE, RE, TE, 2 ton 150", 2 ton 165", 3 ton 135", 3 ton 165", 3 ton 185", JE, and YE. is same as McCord part #5489 So, evidently trucks used the same p/n for the 27-29 trucks for both Senior/Continental engines that were used.. McCord part #5189 only shows up under the 27- early 28 Dodge Senior Six passenger car. McCord part #5189 does not show up for trucks and senior six passenger car part #200316 is not listed anywhere in a DB/GB Master parts list book. So my conclusion now is, if we find out what Continental engine used McCord Part #5489 you'll find the exact truck engine (Continental made) that went into the larger Dodge Brothers trucks that I'm trying to verify. Edited December 13, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 Try this again... (1) 5198 (I assume you meant 5198) also shows for some Graham Bros trks 1928 ""...Bus 2Ton...Dodge Senior..." no parts # listed...otherwise agrees (2) The 38 Vic just lists one head gasket for for both the 31/4 and 33/8 Senior engines (not unusual---Cont'l has several other similar)... (3) Sorry, C15 is misprint for 15C, a 33/8x45/8 per 38 Vic.. (4) 8R was popular engine (apparently upgrade of 7R as several listings "...7R-8R...". Old partial list some 30+ cars/trks---Auburn, Case (tractor co) car, Elcar, Henney hearses, Moon and Velie all have clubs, maybe get pix or desc 8R to compare with Senior???...Cont'l got good coverage in trade journals, maybe desc/pix there to compare?? (5) lots of fun, but realistically, on sober reflection, one would expect, with the extensive, voluminous writings on Dodge, this question was settled long ago??? No answers from Clubs and.or the various and numerous CCpyn/Dodge/Mopar websites??? (6) Nothing in book re' ID systems?? Began with simple letters A etc...in 1916 using the 6C type...by 1938 was using F4140 type (F engine, 4cyl, 140 CID) etc... (7) Cont'l had more engine IDs than Carter had Little Liver Pills...started engine list , mostly from my catalogs...20+ notebook paper pages, and my catalogs only trucks/cars, a little tractor/ag, avery little marine orheavy eqpmt/ind'l, latest 1986... ((8) "we" ?? found 8R under Senior? (I'll assume it was the collegial 'we')... (9) should we consider taking this to direct email?? We're really cluttering up the forum here... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 (edited) Loved the humor about the liver pills... good stuff. Doubt with all the other BS on here this is cluttering. I believe an open forum brings out the information like this to help others. BTW , nothing in the DBC or anywhere else I've looked (hundreds of publications) otherwise I wouldn't be asking for the info. Not sure why you're discussing 5189 or 8R... I've eliminated those. SO then, last question, I'll ask it again differently: how about the McCord p/n 5489 ? Do you show a Continental engine that matches that part # ? Edited December 13, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 13, 2018 Share Posted December 13, 2018 (1) no 5489 in Cont'l sections 30 or 41 McCord... (2) no luck so far on any other 12M/14M listings... (3) what's with press release in 1927 Brisbane Courier re' new Dodge Senior imported with 31/4x41/2 223 CID with SEVEN mains??..."...chosen by Dodge Engineers.." (chosen, not designed?? ).. Sorry, never learned to link, should come up under trove.nla.gov.au/newspapers/dodge senior...nice piece with much car/engine desc...different than domestic version?? (just idle curiosity)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 13, 2018 Author Share Posted December 13, 2018 37 minutes ago, Bud Tierney said: (1) no 5489 in Cont'l sections 30 or 41 McCord... (2) no luck so far on any other 12M/14M listings... (3) what's with press release in 1927 Brisbane Courier re' new Dodge Senior imported with 31/4x41/2 223 CID with SEVEN mains??..."...chosen by Dodge Engineers.." (chosen, not designed?? ).. Sorry, never learned to link, should come up under trove.nla.gov.au/newspapers/dodge senior...nice piece with much car/engine desc...different than domestic version?? (just idle curiosity)... Linking is the easiest part. Simply put your mouse over the address window and right click. Then click Copy. Then come back to this site page or other work that you are doing and right click again. Then paste. Once you do it once or twice it will be like clockwork for you as a research nut. Great site btw and thanks for sharing it with us. Very valid point as it does appear to suggest the fact that someone else had built it as opposed to the DB engineers designing it. Further proof ? Seems to suggest that... As for no match for 5489; I am shocked that all other engines that are supplied to other car makers of the time are listed but not the Dodge Brothers. I understand your point about "not for public trade" but why would they make it known for all other makers and not for Dodges ? Strange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 14, 2018 Share Posted December 14, 2018 Actually, Dodge may be an outlier in Cont'ls engine designation being known... or is it?? We have no idea how/where Victor got the 12M/14M ID...Dodge?...Cont'l?...the ubiquitous "informed source"?... Everyone knows Cont'l provided Graham engines (short blocks?--Graham used their own head?) but none of my catalogs mention any Cont'l ID for them, altho there must've been an internally used ID... Without a reliable list of m'f'rs that Cont'l sold to, often (like Graham) well known among the industry of the time, but possibly lost now, we have no real answer... My list of prewar makes cars/trucks/a few buses using Cont'ls, mostly from published catalog listings and trade journals, is probably over 400 now, and assuredly incomplete., given those who pretended to build the whole car in-house..... Fun for us, but leaving loose ends... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 14, 2018 Author Share Posted December 14, 2018 I guess at this point my best option would be to compare photos (as you mentioned) but with what ? As you know spending thousands on literature is a reality that I'm trying to avoid in hopes of finding that needle in a haystack article/advertisement etc... with no guarantee I'll even find anything. I have only accumulated approximately 200 catalogs and magazines and countless articles and saved photos and am grasping at straws everywhere at this point. Example, I have a 1928 NACC Handbook of Autos coming just to see if there is anything inside it showing the Seldon truck mentioned before that may be a match to the Senior Six design. I don't like buying copies for obvious reasons so investing in factory lit of the time period is a concern for my budget. Not complaining,... being on a fixed income currently it makes it difficult to stock pile what is needed in this situation. Truly thank you for your help Bud. This is a very good direction and at least gives me a much better insight on where I may need to focus my attention. For now,,, over and out ! Until something new comes along. Regards, Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bud Tierney Posted December 15, 2018 Share Posted December 15, 2018 Final before over and out---Various 1929 and later catalogs no mention of 12M/14M... In my catalogs first appears in June 32 King Prod catalog (poor on engine ID)... Both May 36 King and 44 Sealed Power list among Cont'ls, but neither show any listing under the various makes covered listings... Will not post unless something new shows up... Too many questions...too little time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) On 12/6/2018 at 8:33 PM, Bud Tierney said: That 36 catalog , under Cont'l valves, lists "12M to eng #11889, 14M" on one line; 12M after #11889 on the next line---looks like springs differ...12M,14M take same mains, no rods shown (poured?). Going back to your #2 post. This has plagued me since you posted it... and I apologize for flying over it too quickly. Probably could have saved us all a lot of headache if I would have comprehended it initially. Referring back to the Dodge Brothers Club article work compiled by Bruce K Brown and John C Bittence: According to the article for Senior Sixes, on 8/23/1927 at Serial # IS-21,182 there was a new color for the Sedan. Here's where it gets interesting.. on that same day it shows Serial # being at #IS-21,277 for a change to cylinder head (on this day at least 95 units were produced). At Serial # IS-21,277 (*or engine #11,277 in reality*) it states, "Cylinder head gets 16% clearance volume. Dealers to install these on existing cars "as rapidly as possible". This does not conflict with cylinder heads designed for high altitudes". 2249s were dogs according to early reports so was this a way of sneaking in performance on the fly ? Keep in mind that the engine serial number sequence for the Dodge Senior Six started on 5/12/1927 at # IS-10000 so this change took place somewhere between IS-11,182 and IS-11,277 (there's your 11,889 misprint should be 11,189) in reality since it began counting at IS-10,000 for engine number sequence. Matching exhaust and intake #s on Senior and Trucks coincide with Continental #'s ( V-533 exhaust and V534N intake but no conrod data for Continental which you've mentioned). My bet is King has a misprint, received it wrong from DB data or Continental gave wrong data in the translation somewhere and added to the confusion. Based on this I think we can surmise that 12M was indeed the Continental engine used in the original Senior Six 2249 up until engine #IS-21,189 (11,189 in reality). After engine #IS- 21,189 later in the year on 12/06/1927 sometime after engine #24,081 the new Dodge Senior Six engines labeled 2251 were showing up in sales folders suggesting better performance (having already been in place without public knowledge since August). On 1/02/1928 the new 2251 officially begins production (with a few other DB tweaks) and the change takes place officially from Continentals 12M (2249) to Continentals 14M (2251 which then later becomes labeled 2252 by Chrysler for the Senior Six with a couple other DB tweaks). Maybe you have been saying this all along... if so, my apologies... I have to walk through it to see it sometimes. In talking to others in the DBC this is the first time seeing an effort to prove the Continental engine and next I'll try and prove how the production of truck and car engines coincide in regards to engine numbers for both. Were they produced in sequence and if so how since Car prefix began with IS and Truck began with GB. More questions, again...but I had to find the Continental engine before I could even tackle that aspect of it. Also, just making note here that Selden Unit 37 has the Continental listed as 12C according to the March King 36 catalog I have so for now, I'm going to put that to the side with a note (as the valves and other info does not match anyway). Now ? For now it's over and out again as I look for any new data/photos on 12M and 14M via Continental literature.... and to compare the photos with Dodge Senior Sixes for conclusive matches. Edited December 15, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 15, 2018 Author Share Posted December 15, 2018 (edited) Huge piece of consolidated info. Article is "A brief history of the Continental Engine Company" by G. Marshall and Jan P. Norbye in Special-Intersest Autos Jan-Feb 1977. Guess which engine code is the only one missing ? 12M is mentioned in the article in a separate section however brief.. but does not show up in engine code sheets. No mention of 14M anywhere so far as I sift through book after book, catalog, manuals etc... Again, thank you for your sympathy in this time of grieving.... This is becoming a sick joke Edited December 15, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
30DodgePanel Posted December 22, 2018 Author Share Posted December 22, 2018 (edited) Update: Fellow Dodge Brothers (HWellens) posted a Victor gasket catalog page showing the link to 12M. Thought some folks following this may want to know for their own records just incase. Sorry Bud, I know you mentioned this earlier.. again, I am thick headed and had to walk through the process. My mistake for reading over you had posted this evidence earlier. Edited December 22, 2018 by 30DodgePanel (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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