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Continental 6 cylinder used in Dodge Brothers Senior Six

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Do any of you Continental guys know of any literature that exists for the Dodge Brothers Senior Six Continental engine that was used ? I believe Chrysler had them labeled the 2249, 2251, and 2252. According to my literature Continental had it as the 8R. 

 

My research on trucks has me looking into these engines that were used in both the Senior Sixes and in some larger Dodge trucks, buses and motor coaches. Mostly over 2 tons.

I'm looking for any literature or factory info to prove or disprove some information in regards to the relationship between the two parties.

 

Any help is appreciated. 

Regards,
Dave

 

 

 

Senior 2249 (2).jpg

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Just read your above...8R???

Did find and attempted to read thru your earlier post under Dodge Trucks, but the more I read the less I knew.; not unusual in my own researching...

So---I have a 38 Victor gasket catalog that, in a Cont'l engine index section, shows:

AD. (Dodge Senior)---had gskt #668---pg 105 (Dodge Section)

12M, 14M  (Dodge)  same gasket, same page #

8R is listed with several other engines as "various", with gasket #350, pg 86 (Cont'l section). I did find a page in my notes listing 8R makes using, and while Dodge was not there  that page failed to list which of my replacement parts catalogs I reviewed. so may've been a more cursory search ...

In th Dodge section is: Dodge Bros entry:

(Pass) 6cyl.  1927-28. Senior 6.  31/4x41/2; (note semicolon) 1929-30.  33/8x41/2. (Continental 12M)

(Truck) Models ED-OD-TD-GE-HE-OE-RE-TE  2-3Ton 1927-31

(Bus)  Models JD-YD-JE-YE-880-881 1927-31

A 1936 catalog listing Cont'l bores/stroke does show the 8R as 33/8x31/2....both the 12M and 14M are listed ass both 31/4x41/2  AND 33/8x341/2, with no engine # for a change, which could mean they were built simultaneously (???), but...

That 36 catalog , under Cont'l valves, lists "12M to eng #11889, 14M" on one line; 12M after #11889 on the next line---looks like springs differ...12M,14M take same mains, no rods shown (poured?)..8R has different bearings incl rods (inserted?0)

My apologies if you've already gone thrt this, or if it complicates things...

.ADDITION---OH,NO--No!--stupidly pulled a 29 piston catalog---this lists Dodge Senior 27-28 with code Acre, which is Cont'l  10E, 12E, 15E  6cyl  31/4 bore...AND  Sr, Std., Vic, no yrs listed, code Affray, which is Cont'l 12N, 15U, 11E and 16C 6cyl 33/8 bore...

This begins to look like a quagmire.. I've never understood Cont'ls engine ID system; it's not unusual for one set of gaskets to cover two to fifteen or so engine designations, which probably meana they issued the same engine with some minor or major twaeks...     With sympathy,  Bud

Edited by Bud Tierney
Additions (see edit history)

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Thank you for your reply Bud. I think we can figure this out if we all put our collective hats together in conjunction with any literature that each of us may have or may obtain in the near future. 

 

Here is what I have that may help shed some light. First I want to mention I may have jumped the gun on saying it was a 8R, you'll notice that 12K is another 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 set up that is listed BUT it's a 8 cylinder engine

 

This info is taken from a mix of data. Scans are from  a 1930 Automotive Industries magazine Feb 1930 and the Timelines I've typed out are from Dodge Brothers Club articles put together by John Bittence and others. Again, you'll notice in the scans below that the only other 3 3/8 x 4 1/2  besides the 8R is an engine that was listed as a Continental 12K 8 cyl.

 

(Note the DBC article photos are not posted here without permission of author in order to protect Club data but rather I'm simply posting and  making mention of the main points for discussion only)

 

Also  notice in the scans that the Dodge Bros Senior Six has this engine labeled as being they're "own" (but was produced by Continental or was it?). Again, this is in 1930 so did this engine come in house at this point? 

 

Dodge Bros trucks also have another section (in the Auto Industries magazine) showing a 2 ton with 150" wb and a 3 ton with 135" wb   (photo not provided here) that shows a 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 set up but does not mention who the engine was made by. Note the 135" may be labeled incorrectly as the OD was actually 137" wb. TD note mention in this issue of magazine but is 162" wb for reference. 

 

 

Timeline according to DBC Articles :

1927

Car serial # according to Dodge was IS10000 

This is the beginning when Chrysler had these DB seniors and trucks with a "2249" as they're label for this engine with the 3 1/4 x 4 1/2 . 

5/10/1927  First DB Senior Six produced 

6/23/1927   ED 2 ton trucks get this same engine

07/23/1927  OD & TD 3 ton trucks get this same engine

14720 built (DBC article)

It is unknown for certain if that total for Continental engines was for passenger cars only or for both cars and trucks. This is part of what I'm trying to find a conclusive answer on.

 

1928

Car serial # using DB numbering system was IS 24717 

1/2/1928 the "2251" with 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 was introduced for the Senior lineup.

4435 built

 

1930

Car serial # changed to S prefix. First car was labeled S50001 

This is the beginning of the "2252" same engine with slight modifications. 

10486 built

 

 

In summarizing : 

What we know:

We know the size, the approximate dates and Dodge Brothers vehicles it was used in. 

We know the changes (can get more specific if needed)

 

What we don't know:

We don't know  what Continental labeled them as Dodge Brothers made the changes (IE 2249, 2251, 2252)

Was the first DB engine that was labeled 2249 listed by Continental a 12E, 12K, 12M or 12N 14M etc..? 

Was the second DB engine that was labeled 2251 listed by Continental a 12E, 12K,  12M or 12N 14M etc..?

Was the last DB Senior Six engine used that was labeled 2252 listed by Continental a 12E, 12K,  12M  or 12N 14M etc..? 

 

My conclusion (at this point, although research may change my mind) is that the 12E , 12M, 12N all "MAY" be the same engine. I believe we can (for now) count out the 12K and 14M however.

I believe we should try to prove or disprove if any 12's were the correct engine first in order to walk through a process of elimination. 

 

There has to be something out there that explains what the Continental engine coding meant.... 

The answers may also come from many, many cross referencing studies to unlock the key (as I'm sure you're aware).

 

IF anyone has a Automotive Industries Statistical Issue from 1927 1928 or 1929 it would be most helpful. Please post the info if you have it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Continental 1.jpg

Continental 2.jpg

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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(1) I hate myself when I get into one of these quagmires...

(2) I don't follow mainlines, so I know nothing about Dodge etc production,; at my age, you'll forgive me for not wanting to know...

(3) Replacement parts catalogs, which I use for engine IDs, are weak reeds to lean on---errors, misprints, published too early to catch production changes (factory inability to provide enough or any of originally stated engine, orig eng found unsuitable or cheaper better engine suddenly available, ad nauseum)...yet containing reams of info, so shouldn't be ignored...

(4) Agree that a particular engine issued under various designation, probably with tweaks or even user code letter(??)...

(5) Engines found in cars/trucks don't match catalog listings often enough to think maybe if Cont'l contracted to provide engine X and something happened to  prod or they could provide engine XX variation more profitably they weren't above swapping them...on the other hand, variations might've been cheaper/more available, and a drop-in fit, when re-power needed, ad nauseum...

(6) As said, you have my sympathy...

All that being said, I will go thru my period catalogs to see what other confusions/complexities they show, which they will...

NOTE: If not already known,  the period trade journals (The Automobile, The Motor Truck etc) published annual specs/price lists, many of which include wheelbases, tonnage, b/s, HP etc...hathitrust has many to 1922-23 on full vfew, but later are limited view, which I'm not familiar with. They might have your statistical issues......

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Will try to feed finding in chron order of catalogs...

The 29 is Accuralite Company, Muskegon, Mich, Nov  1929 (pistons, quoted above-)--next is 1930 McCord gaskets (title page gone, but my notes refer to it as 1930)...lists

Dodge 6 (pass) model Senior 1927 31/4x41/2  1928-30 33/8x41/2

                  (Trk) Graham Bros  Bodge Bros 2-3 Ton

                  (Bus) JEB, JEX...this lists two head gaskets : 1927 and early 28 and late 28-30...somewhere later is an engine change in Feb 28 listing engine #, but lost in scribbling, will show up again...

The Cont'l  section in that catalog has no matching head gasket number and no listing for 12M/14M, which MIGHT mean engine was not offered to general trade...(8R is listed with different head gasket)...

I assume you'll eventually want copies of those applicable for your records; I have no scanner, and after a meltdown my set transmits pix in MB instead of KB, but I will fiddle with it...eventually...

 

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No copies needed at this point. I think a mention of reference is sufficient for now...

 

As for the JEB JEX two head gaskets..

That makes since because the 1927 ( DB Senior Six 2249 ) would have been the smaller bore 3 1/4.

From 1928 on it would have been the larger 3 3/8 bore ( DB Senior Six 2251 and ending with the 2252 in 1930 more than likely ).

 

Good start... thanks again

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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1930  Mann Precision Piston Pins catalog (title page gone) lists

Dodge Senior 6 1927 with "Cont'l Spec" 31/4 bore---pin # matches Cont'l listing for 11E, 12E, 15E

Senior, Vict, Std  28-29 with "Cont'l" 33/8...

Truck 1927-28 2Ton with  Cont'l Srec" 31/4.....pin # for the 33/8 matches Cont'l listing fo 12K, 15C, 16C, 18E....the 12K is an 8, illustrating that just because a part interchangeable doesn't mean that engine used by Dodge...

.A 1930 Jadson valve catalog didn't show any connection...

1930 Babbitted Rods catalog no connection...

June 1932 King  Quality Products Co, St Louis, catalog more interesting...

Senior 6  1927 to Feb 1928 31/4

Senior 6 after Feb 28-30, Vict 6 130, Std 6 140, 141, DA 1928-30. 33/8..

Trucks--lists some 40+ models, 1928-31, from 1/2 to 3 Ton with the 33/8 engine...in truck section notes "for prices see Dodge"...

The piston # for the 31/4 matches Cont'l 10E, 12E, 15E, 22A and an A16 , which' last is probably a misprint...

The piston number of the 33/8 matches some 15 or so Cont'ls, only some listed above.

I think---THINK--the "Special" indicates an engine made for one user, not intended to be  offered to the trade...

The 30 NcCord and other covers may be buried upstairs---I have a 41 McCord B-! that refers back to an earlier "Guide A", but there're no such reference to any earlier catalog in the 1930.....

 

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I have a King (similar to yours I'm guessing) that I cmpletely forgot about until now. It dates from 1918-36 so some homework and cross referencing will be done on my part.


Also have a 1909-37 McCord Guide A-2 that should be here around Tuesday/Wed of next week. Will post findings (IF I can make heads or tails) as soon as I can.

 

Still haven't found anything that is clear cut explanation on these Continental codes but I think we are on the right track. Good stuff.

Thanks a ton for your input.

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That 32 King bus and truck list

GRAHAM BROS

31/4 engine---1928  OD, ODR, ODX, Yd, TDR, TDX, Ed, EDR, EDX 2T,  JD, YD bus

33/8 engine---1928 Merchants Express SE, Commercial DE: BE, IE 11/4T; ME, LE 13/4T; OE, TE 2T; GE,HE, RE 3T; Achool bus 12-21 pass; JE, JEB, JER,  JEX, YE, YEX bus, 

DODGE

no listings for the 31/4 engine

33/8 engine---1929-31 SE, SEW 1/2Ton; DE, DEF,DEW 3/4T; EE, LEF, BEW, IE, IEF, IEW 11/4T; ME, MER, MEW, LE, LER, LEW 13/4T; ED, EDR, EDX, OE, OER, OEX, TE, TER, TEX, 2T; GE, GES, GEX, HE, HES, HEX, RE, RES, REX 3T; DA1 3/4-11/2T; DB1 2-3T; F35, F36 11/2T; JE, JEB, JER, JEX, YE, YEX bus..

Will recheck those earlier catalogs for Graham Bros trucks...

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Boy you are getting in the mud now lol... Glad to see I'm not the only one going bonkers... (you have my sympathy as well)

ALL of those trucks were mentioned as 3 3/8 but most are not the Continental engine that was used in the Senior Six and select trucks.

I have the trucks figured out that used the Continental engine. The problem I'm having is figuring out what Continental labeled these engines.

 

I'm focusing on the 12M and 14M only right now. The reason is because these are the only two Continentals that were used in the 2249 (3 1/4 bore) and 2251 (3 3/8 bore that later was labeled 2252 by Chrysler). All the other engines mentioned ( 10E, 12E, 15E, 22A, 30A and A16)

are for the other vehicles listed such as Peerless, REO etc... 

Not 100% yet and it's more of a hunch really because these are the only two engines that are mentioned from 1927-1930 for the Senior Six 

 

Once I can prove that the Continental engine provided to Chrysler for the Dodge Senior Six was a 12M or 14M then I can really begin to narrow my search for more streamlined data like photos, catalogs and years the engine was made.

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Here's an odd bit...

None of my three early gasket catalogs (30McC. 38 Vic, 41 McC, each  300+ pgs)  show any 12M/14M in their Cont'l motor sections---nor does 12M/14M appear in Cont'l lists in other 1929, 30, 33 and 34 catalogs---understandable if 12M/14M sold solely to Dodge...

BUT---1932 King Prod DOES show 12M/14M in the Cont'l engine section, as if motor/s used by trade, and people'd be looking for parts under the Cont'l designation rather than looking under Dodge...listings  carried into 36 and 1940 editions ..'

I think I'll eyeball some of  the period catalogs to see if 12M/14M appear under any other makes...

 

 

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14 hours ago, Bud Tierney said:

Here's an odd bit...

None of my three early gasket catalogs (30McC. 38 Vic, 41 McC, each  300+ pgs)  show any 12M/14M in their Cont'l motor sections---nor does 12M/14M appear in Cont'l lists in other 1929, 30, 33 and 34 catalogs---understandable if 12M/14M sold solely to Dodge...

BUT---1932 King Prod DOES show 12M/14M in the Cont'l engine section, as if motor/s used by trade, and people'd be looking for parts under the Cont'l designation rather than looking under Dodge...listings  carried into 36 and 1940 editions ..'

I think I'll eyeball some of  the period catalogs to see if 12M/14M appear under any other makes...

 

 

 

Great work. I think this is the type of narrowing down process that is exactly needed. Very good points you're touching on there...

 

Bud, do you have a book called "Continental Motors - It's Motors and It's People" by William Wagner? 
I have one on order that I found on eBay for $10 that should be here by the end of the week and hoping it sheds some light on things. If you don't have a copy it may be something you're interested in...will let you know once I receive it. I'm hoping that it goes in depth into the labeling of engines and specifics we're asking about here.

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Do any of your McCord catalogs show a truck reference page like this ? 

 

The picture was taken from the internet (another recent eBay purchase) so I apologize it's not a very good photo. Again, it should be here by this weekend..

I'm hopeful this is something different than what you have so it fills in the blanks as it looks like it may..

 

Research is costly btw … $$$..

 

 

Conti 1.jpg

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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Your McCord page pictured is the format used in my 1928-40 B-1 (per cover) issue....but my Fargo  listing has almost 40 entries...the Farr  listing seems the same...in mine Farr is followed by Fay & Bowen with only 4 entries at the bottom of page 98; page 99 is a whole page of Federal listings...

I'd meant to mention the Cont'l book...I ran across a copy in a bookstore, but was disappointed in that it didn't seem to include a comprehensive list of when engines introduced or individual production info, but it may well have mention of the Dodge contract/s and'm sure it contains a wealth of Cont'l history...... there's a ready market for them in case it disappoints re' Dodge...

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This issue of McCord was advertised as 1909-1937 A-2 so it will be interesting to see the differences and to see if anything new or useful comes forward once it arrives. 

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Referring back to the Auto Industries 1930 edition I have:

There seems to be a missing engine in the Continental listing in the front of the magazine on the page I provided previously.

 

Later in this magazine under trucks I found what is listed as a 2 1/2 ton under Seldon trucks model UNIT 37 that carried a Continental C15 that is a match for the  3 3/8 x 4 1/2 but it isn't in the lineup of Continental engines listed on the page I provided originally and am supplying again here for comparison. This is the only vehicle I can find that carried the C15. Whether or not that was a code used for Seldon only may shed light on some answers... If it was a code used for TRUCKS with 3 3/8 x 4 1/2 that would be helpful to know also as the Dodge Brothers trucks have the same size engine listed but built as their "OWN" 

 

Remember, earlier we found the 8R under the Senior Six.

Does this possibly mean that Continental had a way of labeling passenger cars with a different label for the same maker of trucks in ones lineup (IE Dodge Brothers) ? I do want to make note here that if you look under United Trucks Model 30C 1 1/2 ton you'll notice this truck has the 8R also which throws a wrench into that theory but should be noted. 

Also, and this is important... when I look at a Dodge Brothers Club article about trucks that used the Senior Six engine by John Bittence he states that in regards to the later TRUCKS (GE RE HE) "In 1930 the Senior engine was discontinued in favor of the Chrysler Six".

 

So it looks to me like this is THE critical point at which the Car was still labeled a 8R but the trucks are listed as "OWN" meaning they used the Chrysler six by this point in the magazines issue in Feb 1930. I'm only noting here for reference in order to hopefully have it all in one place to compare and to make note incase it becomes a question later. The 3rd scan listed below is highlighted yellow with the two Dodge Brothers trucks that used the "OWN" engine. Sorry, scanner would not allow me to fit full page showing "Dodge Brothers" so I highlighted the row for you instead. 

 

 

What can you tell me about C15 ? How many cars and trucks does this match if any..

I don't want to waste your time with a question that my be a mute point but it may come into play later. Again, this is later in 1930 so by this time Dodge Bros were labeling the CAR engine the 2252 version and trucks were using the Chrysler not Continental engine (what ever that label was..). Don't mean to be so damned redundant but I just wanted to make note because this will come into play later once we find out what the 2249 version was actually labeled by Continental for Senior Six passenger car and once we find out what the Continental code was for DB trucks. At this point we are simply working our way back the best we can starting with 1930. 

 

Man,,, a 1927 and 1928 Automotive Industries Statistical Issue sure would come in handy here. That would be a huge help.

 

 

 

Continental 1.jpg

Continental 3.jpg

Continental 4.jpg

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Starting to think that internally Continentals slogan according to the engineers must have been jokingly

"Continental Motors,,, Where We Confuse Mechanics, Salespersons and Consumers alike ;) "

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Received both books today and nothing new yet.

 

Do you have any McCord listings showing what Continental engine used McCord parts # 5198 or #5489 ? 

That's the only thing so far I can see that may give an answer.

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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Geez.. system sent my whole reply off into the aether somewhere...will try again later...

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Cylinder Head Gasket for Dodge part # 201646 used on truck models ED, JD, YD, OD, TD, GE, HE, OE, RE, TE, 2 ton 150", 2 ton 165", 3 ton 135", 3 ton 165", 3 ton 185", JE, and YE.

is same as McCord part #5489 

 

So, evidently trucks used the same p/n for the 27-29 trucks for both Senior/Continental engines that were used.. 

 

McCord part #5189 only shows up under the 27- early 28 Dodge Senior Six passenger car. 

McCord part #5189 does not show up for trucks and senior six passenger car part #200316 is not listed anywhere in a DB/GB parts list book.

Edited by 30DodgePanel (see edit history)

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