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"Mag Wheels" In the AACA Official Revue : Disgusting !!!


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Oldford, really no double standard at all.  The rule for the flea market is that if a vehicle could be exhibited in a AACA class it is eligible for the car corral.  Secondly, there is no AACA national police at Hershey running the car corral.  Hershey Region members and volunteers do their best at attempting to follow the rule book.  A VERY tough assignment for them.  They do a very good job but sometimes a car gets in that should not and maybe a car goes home that would qualify.  

 

As explained by A.J., the Studebaker was approved for a non-judged class by a committee of AACA judges.  As to the Packard, I think I know which one  you are referring to (rushed so have not gone back to your post) and all I can say is that if it is the Speedster it does not meet the criteria of the rule book but when it was entered in the show how was anyone to know?  Once it got there and in place then it was not asked to leave.  It was a hit though!

 

I am all for following the rules.  No reason to have them if you do not follow but sometimes you have to use common sense especially when "no babies or animals" are harmed! :) 

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It's really hard to police show fields on the spot. To their credit, I have seen Hershey volunteers ask cars to leave the car corral because they were modified, which I feel is appropriate. It's a tough thing to do, because the person being asked to leave inevitably gets angry about it, regardless of the reasons behind the request. We run a show each year that is for unmodified, stock cars only, but as West points out, there are always a half-dozen guys who simply write "1957 Chevy" on their entry form and initial the "I certify that my car is unmodified" statement, then show up with their LS-powered, air-bagged, 20-inch rimmed '57 Chevy. When they're asked to leave, they start shouting and getting indignant, they make a big scene, and with notable few exceptions they spin their tires on the way out the gate, creating a dangerous situation. We've kind of decided to just let them stay and quietly talk to them one-on-one and ask them not to bring that car back because it's inappropriate for the venue. Some understand, some don't, and it turns ugly about 70% of the time. You should have seen the guy who lost his mind when his custom Camaro didn't even get third place in his class after judging--our head judge looked at his score sheet and said, "Wrong engine, wrong interior, wrong wheels, wrong transmission, wrong color... shall I continue?" That guy, like the others, revved his engine loudly, said some unkind words at the top of his voice, and smoked his tires out the gate. Sometimes better to just not worry about it as long as the numbers of modified cars don't get out of hand (like I said, it's usually only 5 or 6 of them).

 

I would think that at a show like Hershey, showing up in an obvious hot rod would feel so stupid that you would self-remove and go home without a fuss. Imagine showing up at Corvettes at Carlisle with your 5.0 Mustang and demanding to be let in--you'd feel like such an idiot before you even got close to the front gate that you'd probably just quietly slide home and not try that again.

 

It might be that the Hershey volunteers do it as a judgement call--cars like the aforementioned Packard get a pass as long as it's not being judged, but any car showing up with a fuel-injected late-model engine and trick wheels would certainly be asked to leave. You don't have to die on every single hill. Who has the energy for that?

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3 hours ago, padgett said:

" No problem making your LeMans into a GTO. " oh I agree, as long as it is done correctly. If I can open the trunk and tell it was not a GTO then...There a few things on a 64-65 GTO that were different from a LeMans. Of course with PHS the question is moot.

If all the changes were made it's a no brainer. POCI, GTOAA, and AACA don't walk around the show field with PHS documentation.

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2 hours ago, West Peterson said:

 

 

 

My comment to Mr. Pfeil: For more than 14 years, I have strived to feature all aspects of AACA. I receive many letters from members who think that all I feature are high-point award-winning automobiles. Nothing could be further from the truth. As most of us know, pictures lie. In fact, if you read through the Letters section of this very same issue (November/December 2018), there is a letter from a man who "claims" members of an AACA Region in his area have shunned his cars because they are the wrong make and wrong condition. Steve Moskowitz penned a perfect response of shock, adding that "There is a danger in equating All of AACA as having a singular view on the hobby ... Our magazine tries to add mixes of DPC, and HPOF cars along with exposing members to rare cars that [few] of us can ever hope to own. We are proud of those members who restore and maintain their cars for the enjoyment of the rest of us."

 

 

I didn't say anything about featuring cars in AACA, besides I don't know what you've featured anyway.

I did say that Mimicking is not the real deal.

I did say that the Starfire shown with aftermarket mags would be better off with Real mags that were offered by Oldsmobile.

I did say a Pontiac LeMans could be made into a Pontiac GTO and shown at a AACA event as a GTO according to judging rules.

I mentioned the girl was sitting on a Frazier Manhattan.

I agreed with Padgett when he said:

 

   "So I get a bit confused in that pre-war coach builders are venerated while modern ones are despised"

 

I mentioned that a Steve mole car would not receive the same recognition as a Bohman / Schwartz.

I did say I thought AACA was for preserving Antique cars.

 

What I would like to see at the head of the web page, and at the beginning of the forum is a "MISSION STAMENT" of what AACA stands for.

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

It's really hard to police show fields on the spot. To their credit, I have seen Hershey volunteers ask cars to leave the car corral because they were modified, which I feel is appropriate. It's a tough thing to do, because the person being asked to leave inevitably gets angry about it, regardless of the reasons behind the request. We run a show each year that is for unmodified, stock cars only, but as West points out, there are always a half-dozen guys who simply write "1957 Chevy" on their entry form and initial the "I certify that my car is unmodified" statement, then show up with their LS-powered, air-bagged, 20-inch rimmed '57 Chevy. When they're asked to leave, they start shouting and getting indignant, they make a big scene, and with notable few exceptions they spin their tires on the way out the gate, creating a dangerous situation. We've kind of decided to just let them stay and quietly talk to them one-on-one and ask them not to bring that car back because it's inappropriate for the venue. Some understand, some don't, and it turns ugly about 70% of the time. You should have seen the guy who lost his mind when his custom Camaro didn't even get third place in his class after judging--our head judge looked at his score sheet and said, "Wrong engine, wrong interior, wrong wheels, wrong transmission, wrong color... shall I continue?" That guy, like the others, revved his engine loudly, said some unkind words at the top of his voice, and smoked his tires out the gate. Sometimes better to just not worry about it as long as the numbers of modified cars don't get out of hand (like I said, it's usually only 5 or 6 of them).

 

I would think that at a show like Hershey, showing up in an obvious hot rod would feel so stupid that you would self-remove and go home without a fuss. Imagine showing up at Corvettes at Carlisle with your 5.0 Mustang and demanding to be let in--you'd feel like such an idiot before you even got close to the front gate that you'd probably just quietly slide home and not try that again.

 

It might be that the Hershey volunteers do it as a judgement call--cars like the aforementioned Packard get a pass as long as it's not being judged, but any car showing up with a fuel-injected late-model engine and trick wheels would certainly be asked to leave. You don't have to die on every single hill. Who has the energy for that?

You need a MISSION STATEMENT up front of what you stand for at Hershey, the Forum, anything you do. It must be up front so there is no mistake. A big sign no hot rods modified cars etc.

But I must tell you that by adding modified cars to a DPC or having any modified cars at local AACA shows clouds and confuses people. As one person once shouted to me said they are a bunch of hypocrites.

This has nothing to do with me, just make it perfectly clear what you stand for, and if there is any hypocrisy change it.  

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51 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

You need a MISSION STATEMENT up front of what you stand for at Hershey, the Forum, anything you do. It must be up front so there is no mistake. A big sign no hot rods modified cars etc.

But I must tell you that by adding modified cars to a DPC or having any modified cars at local AACA shows clouds and confuses people. As one person once shouted to me said they are a bunch of hypocrites.

This has nothing to do with me, just make it perfectly clear what you stand for, and if there is any hypocrisy change it.  

 

I'll tell you what, YOU can be the guy standing at the gate, stopping cars to check for modifications while everyone else backs up onto the street, blocking traffic, honking horns, with overheating radiators and slipping clutches on a hill. YOU can give out YOUR phone number for complaints after the show. YOU can be the guy everyone comes to complain to when it takes too long to get in the gate and their cars overheat. YOU can be the guy going out to face an extremely irate hot rod owner who will tell you that you, your mother, your kids, and everyone related to you is a piece of crap because his car isn't welcome at the show. YOU can be the one who has to find the other car owners and move the other cars already properly parked so the angry guy can leave with his exhaust roaring and his tires spinning. YOU can be the guy who takes the blame when the irate guy goes on the internet to tell everyone what pieces of crap the people running the show are. YOU can be the one whose wife gets yelled at because she manages the gate and gets called all sorts of unkind words. Step right up. If it's as easy as writing a mission statement and making a sign, you should have no problem with this job. Do we have a deal?

 

People LIE to get into shows, including the Stan Hywet Father's Day show our club hosts, and probably into Hershey as well. They KNOW it's for stock cars and they simply don't care. They think their shiat is just too cool to be missed and they also want on-field parking. We get people calling and asking if their car is permissible because it has an electric fuel pump (yes, of course) but we never get guys calling to ask if their 1948 Ford with a supercharged V8 hanging out of the hood and a 6-speed and air bag suspension is permissible, they just show up ready to fight their way in. By the time they're rolling through the gate, either it's time for a confrontation with swear words and screeching rubber and a big hold up to the rest of the line where 499 other cars are trying to get in, or it's let them in and hopefully have a quiet conversation later where they understand they made a mistake and nobody gets embarrassed. Or God forbid it's something like we had last June where an Autokraft Mark IV showed up--is it a Cobra replica or a legitimate production car? It's aluminum, made on the original tooling, by a guy who bought the original company, using vintage Ford parts. Let him stay or throw him out? Does a mission statement cover that kind of situation? Someone's going to be pissed no matter what you do. 

 

A sign, big letters on the sign-up form (as I mentioned, we actually make them sign the form indicating that they understand the show is for unmodified cars only and they ALL do), whatever--none of it stops the handful of guys with modified cars from showing up and pushing their way in. Rather than screw up everyone else's day, we let it ride and handle it quietly. They KNOW they don't belong. They just don't care--they JUST HAVE to be there, rules be damned. I presume the few (VERY few) non-stock cars at Hershey are treated the same and they choose not to make a scene by turning them away at the busy front gate.

 

Sometimes it's just not very easy. If you're at the front gate, 500 cars are streaming in, and you see this car in line. It drives by quietly. Are you letting this car in (no fair scrolling down and cheating)?

 

002.thumb.jpg.0c7996ec51fecf10332eca6de5edd509.jpg 033.thumb.jpg.f8660a7f66ae71a8679f602875e1066c.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uh oh, looks like you just let a hot rod in. Time for a showdown, some shouting, and an angry visitor!

 

077.thumb.JPG.537814783135aea662fbb2208ad9a0ee.JPG

 

 

 

Edited by Matt Harwood (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I'll tell you what, YOU can be the guy standing at the gate, stopping cars to check for modifications while everyone else backs up onto the street, blocking traffic, honking horns, with overheating radiators and slipping clutches on a hill. YOU can give out YOUR phone number for complaints after the show. YOU can be the guy everyone comes to complain to when it takes too long to get in the gate and their cars overheat. YOU can be the guy going out to face an extremely irate hot rod owner who will tell you that you, your mother, your kids, and everyone related to you is a piece of crap because his car isn't welcome at the show. YOU can be the one who has to find the other car owners and move the other cars already properly parked so the angry guy can leave with his exhaust roaring and his tires spinning. YOU can be the guy who takes the blame when the irate guy goes on the internet to tell everyone what pieces of crap the people running the show are. YOU can be the one whose wife gets yelled at because she manages the gate and gets called all sorts of unkind words. Step right up. If it's as easy as writing a mission statement and making a sign, you should have no problem with this job. Do we have a deal?

 

People LIE to get into shows, including the Stan Hywet Father's Day show our club hosts, and probably into Hershey as well. They KNOW it's for stock cars and they simply don't care. They think their shiat is just too cool to be missed and they also want on-field parking. We get people calling and asking if their car is permissible because it has an electric fuel pump (yes, of course) but we never get guys calling to ask if their 1948 Ford with a supercharged V8 hanging out of the hood and a 6-speed and air bag suspension is permissible, they just show up ready to fight their way in. By the time they're rolling through the gate, either it's time for a confrontation with swear words and screeching rubber and a big hold up to the rest of the line where 499 other cars are trying to get in, or it's let them in and hopefully have a quiet conversation later where they understand they made a mistake and nobody gets embarrassed. Or God forbid it's something like we had last June where an Autokraft Mark IV showed up--is it a Cobra replica or a legitimate production car? It's aluminum, made on the original tooling, by a guy who bought the original company, using vintage Ford parts. Let him stay or throw him out? Does a mission statement cover that kind of situation? Someone's going to be pissed no matter what you do. 

 

A sign, big letters on the sign-up form (as I mentioned, we actually make them sign the form indicating that they understand the show is for unmodified cars only and they ALL do), whatever--none of it stops the handful of guys with modified cars from showing up and pushing their way in. Rather than screw up everyone else's day, we let it ride and handle it quietly. They KNOW they don't belong. They just don't care--they JUST HAVE to be there, rules be damned. I presume the few (VERY few) non-stock cars at Hershey are treated the same and they choose not to make a scene by turning them away at the busy front gate.

 

 

OTOH, Doing a multi page feature in the mag and having the Stude on the show field says to one and all "COME ON DOWN". (And if not, just why not ?)

Please don't shoot the messenger.

I'm just sayin.............Bob

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1 hour ago, Pfeil said:

I didn't say anything about featuring cars in AACA, besides I don't know what you've featured anyway.

I did say that Mimicking is not the real deal.

I did say that the Starfire shown with aftermarket mags would be better off with Real mags that were offered by Oldsmobile.

I did say a Pontiac LeMans could be made into a Pontiac GTO and shown at a AACA event as a GTO according to judging rules.

I mentioned the girl was sitting on a Frazier Manhattan.

I agreed with Padgett when he said:

 

   "So I get a bit confused in that pre-war coach builders are venerated while modern ones are despised"

 

I mentioned that a Steve mole car would not receive the same recognition as a Bohman / Schwartz.

I did say I thought AACA was for preserving Antique cars.

 

What I would like to see at the head of the web page, and at the beginning of the forum is a "MISSION STAMENT" of what AACA stands for.

 

My total apologies. I meant to address the OP, gervaisgt. I have gone back and edited my post.

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17 hours ago, Pfeil said:

If you have to put a mag wheel on a car like that Olds, please make it a Olds Mag!

Image result for 1963 oldsmobile starfire images

 

I actually love those wheels and if I could have found a perfect set I would probably use them. Although some would even criticize that since they are not correct for my 63 - they were only used in 64 and 65. Think I'll keep my 17s.

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18 hours ago, GregLaR said:

Pfeil,

            While I like the mags on my muscle era cars I agree with you on the vintage cars. I'm about 75% through the resto on my '38 Plymouth coupe and I love it for it's plain simplicity. This was a very low option car (two tail lamps and passenger side sun visor) and that's the way I'm keeping it. Right down to the black wall tires. I always think it looks cheesey when one of these lower end, inexpensive cars are all dressed up with fog lamps, visors, fender skirts, trim rings, etc.

I suppose that makes me a little hypocritical. I can't really justify why I think its OK for one type of car but not another.

Greg

Greg, your not being hypocritical. You said that you agree with me on vintage cars, so now that muscle cars are vintage cars, no aftermarket mags.

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3 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

I actually love those wheels and if I could have found a perfect set I would probably use them. Although some would even criticize that since they are not correct for my 63 - they were only used in 64 and 65. Think I'll keep my 17s.

yes, I know they are not for a 63, my emphasis was if you have to put a mag wheel on a Olds to a least make it a Olds mag. I could just as well have used a Olds Super Stock wheel, but the ones I showed were more period correct. I would hope that you continue to look for those optional wheels, I do know they are hard to come by but they sure look sharp. 

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4 hours ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I'll tell you what, YOU can be the guy standing at the gate, stopping cars to check for modifications while everyone else backs up onto the street, blocking traffic, honking horns, with overheating radiators and slipping clutches on a hill. YOU can give out YOUR phone number for complaints after the show. YOU can be the guy everyone comes to complain to when it takes too long to get in the gate and their cars overheat. YOU can be the guy going out to face an extremely irate hot rod owner who will tell you that you, your mother, your kids, and everyone related to you is a piece of crap because his car isn't welcome at the show. YOU can be the one who has to find the other car owners and move the other cars already properly parked so the angry guy can leave with his exhaust roaring and his tires spinning. YOU can be the guy who takes the blame when the irate guy goes on the internet to tell everyone what pieces of crap the people running the show are. YOU can be the one whose wife gets yelled at because she manages the gate and gets called all sorts of unkind words. Step right up. If it's as easy as writing a mission statement and making a sign, you should have no problem with this job. Do we have a deal?

 

People LIE to get into shows, including the Stan Hywet Father's Day show our club hosts, and probably into Hershey as well. They KNOW it's for stock cars and they simply don't care. They think their shiat is just too cool to be missed and they also want on-field parking. We get people calling and asking if their car is permissible because it has an electric fuel pump (yes, of course) but we never get guys calling to ask if their 1948 Ford with a supercharged V8 hanging out of the hood and a 6-speed and air bag suspension is permissible, they just show up ready to fight their way in. By the time they're rolling through the gate, either it's time for a confrontation with swear words and screeching rubber and a big hold up to the rest of the line where 499 other cars are trying to get in, or it's let them in and hopefully have a quiet conversation later where they understand they made a mistake and nobody gets embarrassed. Or God forbid it's something like we had last June where an Autokraft Mark IV showed up--is it a Cobra replica or a legitimate production car? It's aluminum, made on the original tooling, by a guy who bought the original company, using vintage Ford parts. Let him stay or throw him out? Does a mission statement cover that kind of situation? Someone's going to be pissed no matter what you do. 

 

A sign, big letters on the sign-up form (as I mentioned, we actually make them sign the form indicating that they understand the show is for unmodified cars only and they ALL do), whatever--none of it stops the handful of guys with modified cars from showing up and pushing their way in. Rather than screw up everyone else's day, we let it ride and handle it quietly. They KNOW they don't belong. They just don't care--they JUST HAVE to be there, rules be damned. I presume the few (VERY few) non-stock cars at Hershey are treated the same and they choose not to make a scene by turning them away at the busy front gate.

 

Sometimes it's just not very easy. If you're at the front gate, 500 cars are streaming in, and you see this car in line. It drives by quietly. Are you letting this car in (no fair scrolling down and cheating)?

 

002.thumb.jpg.0c7996ec51fecf10332eca6de5edd509.jpg 033.thumb.jpg.f8660a7f66ae71a8679f602875e1066c.jpg

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Uh oh, looks like you just let a hot rod in. Time for a showdown, some shouting, and an angry visitor!

 

077.thumb.JPG.537814783135aea662fbb2208ad9a0ee.JPG

 

 

 

Matt, I offered  suggestions, I don't want to be ridiculed for offering a opinion on a forum that is here for those opinions. YOUR taking it out on someone who is basically on your side for most of it.

 Once again, there seems to be some cloudiness on AACA's part. If you let in modified vehicles at a local AACA event which the club or chapter does, and lets modified cars in on a tour etc., with what I hear is the hope that some of these people will see things our way about cars and convert.  I think you are mistaken. So you allow these modified cars to go on tours, or have modified cars in a driver participation class and now these people become members and now they want their cars in the big time shows. Can you now blame them???  In a sense the organization has created the irate modified car owner themselves. You've put a wedge in the door yourselves to let people in on certain events and then say you can't go the big time with your modified car.

The question is how to solve the problem the club has created. 

Edited by Pfeil (see edit history)
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5 hours ago, Bhigdog said:

 

OTOH, Doing a multi page feature in the mag and having the Stude on the show field says to one and all "COME ON DOWN". (And if not, just why not ?)

Please don't shoot the messenger.

I'm just sayin.............Bob

 

My point exactly...

 

Frank

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7 hours ago, Steve Moskowitz said:

the Studebaker was approved for a non-judged class by a committee of AACA judges

 

Fair enough. And I do understand the reasoning for inclusion and actually I am sympathetic. That does, however, raise a few questions that may very well be published or common knowledge. If so pardon my ignorance. But inquiring minds may want to know.

 

In the interest of gaining committee approval for a show field spot for a one off car, members may want to know:

 

What is the criteria for gaining approval?

What is the application process?

Is the committee a standing committee or is it ad hoc?

How does one contact the committee?

Does the committee grant approval for mag inclusion, show field admission, both?

Do the local sponsoring clubs grant field admittance or does the AACA grant that right?

Do the local sponsoring clubs have veto rights over a particular vehicle that has been "approved"

Does a local sponsoring club officer sit on the committee?

Are the number of admissions per event limited?

Is the vintage of the base vehicle a factor?

 

Just askin...........................Bob

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2 hours ago, Pfeil said:

yes, I know they are not for a 63, my emphasis was if you have to put a mag wheel on a Olds to a least make it a Olds mag. I could just as well have used a Olds Super Stock wheel, but the ones I showed were more period correct. I would hope that you continue to look for those optional wheels, I do know they are hard to come by but they sure look sharp. 

 

Apologies for dragging this thread off topic, but no, you could not use SuperStock wheels.  The full size cars use a 5 x 5" bolt pattern.  All Olds SuperStock I/II/III wheels only came in 5 x 4.75" (unless you happen to stumble across one of the ultra-rare, hand made versions used on the actual 1977 Pace Car - not the ones on the replicas sold to the public). And technically, those 64 wheels aren't "mags", they are wheel covers bolted over plain steel wheels.

 

afqia2-CRIFGVsdThEGHk8AUVJBRBFTExICRwJdD

 

The only styled wheels ever made by Olds for the 5 x 5" bolt pattern were the SuperStock IV wheels offered on the 1971-72 Delta 88s, and even these are polycast - plastic foam molded over a steel wheel.

 

71OldsDelta88Royale4jg.jpg

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1 hour ago, Bhigdog said:

 

Fair enough. And I do understand the reasoning for inclusion and actually I am sympathetic. That does, however, raise a few questions that may very well be published or common knowledge. If so pardon my ignorance. But inquiring minds may want to know.

 

In the interest of gaining committee approval for a show field spot for a one off car, members may want to know:

 

What is the criteria for gaining approval?

What is the application process?

Is the committee a standing committee or is it ad hoc?

How does one contact the committee?

Does the committee grant approval for mag inclusion, show field admission, both?

Do the local sponsoring clubs grant field admittance or does the AACA grant that right?

Do the local sponsoring clubs have veto rights over a particular vehicle that has been "approved"

Does a local sponsoring club officer sit on the committee?

Are the number of admissions per event limited?

Is the vintage of the base vehicle a factor?

 

Just askin...........................Bob

 

Some of your questions can be answered by simply reading the Judging Guidelines...

 

"CHAIRMAN - CLASS ACCEPTANCE The Chairman of the Class Acceptance Committee (CAC) is the current VP 3-5 Judging. The Chairman maintains a roster of committee members. Administers the functions of the CAC for the admittance of vehicles in Classes 1a through 5h, Class 12, and Class 39; excluding those vehicles under the SCC committee and Race car committee's jurisdiction"

 

 

"4. Special Interest Vehicles (Class 39) A display only, non-judged class. All vehicles in this class must be approved by the Class Acceptance Committee. The owner of such vehicle must provide documentation and authenticity documents to the Class Acceptance Committee. Consideration will be for the following examples: a. Celebrity vehicles b. Vehicles in movies or on television c. Vehicles of historical significance d. Vehicles of innovative design that never matured This class is not for modified vehicles, i.e., hot rods,

street rods, choppers and etc." 

 

The article indicated that the Studebaker was the third vehicle accepted into Class 39.

 

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2 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Matt, I offered  suggestions, I don't want to be ridiculed for offering a opinion on a forum that is here for those opinions. YOUR taking it out on someone who is basically on your side for most of it.

 Once again, there seems to be some cloudiness on AACA's part. If you let in modified vehicles at a local AACA event which the club or chapter does, and lets modified cars in on a tour etc., with what I hear is the hope that some of these people will see things our way about cars and convert.  I think you are mistaken. So you allow these modified cars to go on tours, or have modified cars in a driver participation class and now these people become members and now they want their cars in the big time shows. Can you now blame them???  In a sense the organization has created the irate modified car owner themselves. You've put a wedge in the door yourselves to let people in on certain events and then say you can't go the big time with your modified car.

The question is how to solve the problem the club has created. 

 

I'm not ridiculing you, I'm pointing out that until you've done it, it's easy to pitch answers. Every year we have the same discussion about how to fix the problem and every year the new folks on the committee tell us the exact same things. How about a sign? Why not make them sign something official? Put it in big letters on the entry form. Just turn them away when they get to the show, too bad. Seems pretty easy until you've got a red-faced guy yelling obscenities at you because you took his money but won't let his car in. As long as people will try to game the system or push the boundaries, the problem will exist. I guarantee the folks in the AACA and at Hershey know all about it and have their way of handling it. The way I've decided to do it is to let them in, let them have a nice day with their family (it is Father's Day, after all), and quietly talk to them where there's no incentive to make a scene. It happens sometimes anyway, but sometimes they learn something and agree to be cool. I think it's better than a fight at the gate, which is practically a sure thing. I mean, what do you do when this shows up with a family in it, having pre-registered as a 1936 Auburn and initialing that yes, it's unmodified? 

 

IMG_3098.jpg

 

Your point is well made, however, regarding the slippery slope of modified cars showing up. I have heard that as an excuse several times when talking to the owners of cars that don't belong at the show. "I saw another guy with X on his car, why was that allowed and mine isn't?" It's definitely a problem. That Autokraft Mark IV I mentioned that showed up this year (and ultimately I gave the green light for it to be in the show as it was more than 25 years old, made by a manufacturer, and built off the original AC molds) will surely spawn a whole rash of plastic Cobras trying to register next year. Most of the time we can catch them before show day because of the entry form and tell them thanks, but no thanks, but like I said, the guys who flat-out lie on the forms and sign the box that says their car is stock, well, what to do about them? Turning them away at the gate always causes a scene and clogs the entrance while they fight and scream, often just to spite us. Several times I've just taken out my wallet and started peeling off $20s to make the guy go away quietly because he was demanding a refund of his entry fee. Fine, here's your money. Still not good enough? What now then? I've never been hit, but I've been prepared for it. People lose their friggin' minds over this stuff.


What is the answer? I don't know. It's a problem. I'm sure all show organizers face it. Most of the people we turn away before show day are understanding, some are understanding on the day of the show, but sadly, many more are not. I don't know why. I wouldn't be angry if I showed up in my 1941 Buick at the Model A Club national meet and was asked not to come in, but it seems the guys who own modified cars don't really see the difference. 

 

Modified cars are a fact of life. Their owners are no less passionate than we are, albeit about different aspects of the hobby. If there's a way to make them understand that turning them away isn't saying their car sucks, and to do it without inconveniencing everyone else and without wrecking anybody's day, well, I'd love to hear it.

 

But I haven't and I don't expect I will.

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11 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

Some of your questions can be answered by simply reading the Judging Guidelines...

 

"CHAIRMAN - CLASS ACCEPTANCE The Chairman of the Class Acceptance Committee (CAC) is the current VP 3-5 Judging. The Chairman maintains a roster of committee members. Administers the functions of the CAC for the admittance of vehicles in Classes 1a through 5h, Class 12, and Class 39; excluding those vehicles under the SCC committee and Race car committee's jurisdiction"

 

 

"4. Special Interest Vehicles (Class 39) A display only, non-judged class. All vehicles in this class must be approved by the Class Acceptance Committee. The owner of such vehicle must provide documentation and authenticity documents to the Class Acceptance Committee. Consideration will be for the following examples: a. Celebrity vehicles b. Vehicles in movies or on television c. Vehicles of historical significance d. Vehicles of innovative design that never matured This class is not for modified vehicles, i.e., hot rods,

street rods, choppers and etc." 

 

The article indicated that the Studebaker was the third vehicle accepted into Class 39.

 

Sounds like the same system a Vintage Race Car goes through for Class 24 A or 24B that has worked well for over 25 years now. If someone wants to show the Batmobile at an AACA Meet in class 39, fine, just hope nobody drives their TV Monster truck over it,.

 

 

Bob 

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1 hour ago, joe_padavano said:

 

Apologies for dragging this thread off topic, but no, you could not use SuperStock wheels.  The full size cars use a 5 x 5" bolt pattern.  All Olds SuperStock I/II/III wheels only came in 5 x 4.75" (unless you happen to stumble across one of the ultra-rare, hand made versions used on the actual 1977 Pace Car - not the ones on the replicas sold to the public). And technically, those 64 wheels aren't "mags", they are wheel covers bolted over plain steel wheels.

 

afqia2-CRIFGVsdThEGHk8AUVJBRBFTExICRwJdD

 

The only styled wheels ever made by Olds for the 5 x 5" bolt pattern were the SuperStock IV wheels offered on the 1971-72 Delta 88s, and even these are polycast - plastic foam molded over a steel wheel.

 

71OldsDelta88Royale4jg.jpg

I was thinking of the SS IV on the 71-72 Deltas

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1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I'm not ridiculing you, I'm pointing out that until you've done it, it's easy to pitch answers. Every year we have the same discussion about how to fix the problem and every year the new folks on the committee tell us the exact same things. How about a sign? Why not make them sign something official? Put it in big letters on the entry form. Just turn them away when they get to the show, too bad. Seems pretty easy until you've got a red-faced guy yelling obscenities at you because you took his money but won't let his car in. As long as people will try to game the system or push the boundaries, the problem will exist. I guarantee the folks in the AACA and at Hershey know all about it and have their way of handling it. The way I've decided to do it is to let them in, let them have a nice day with their family (it is Father's Day, after all), and quietly talk to them where there's no incentive to make a scene. It happens sometimes anyway, but sometimes they learn something and agree to be cool. I think it's better than a fight at the gate, which is practically a sure thing. I mean, what do you do when this shows up with a family in it, having pre-registered as a 1936 Auburn and initialing that yes, it's unmodified? 

 

IMG_3098.jpg

 

Your point is well made, however, regarding the slippery slope of modified cars showing up. I have heard that as an excuse several times when talking to the owners of cars that don't belong at the show. "I saw another guy with X on his car, why was that allowed and mine isn't?" It's definitely a problem. That Autokraft Mark IV I mentioned that showed up this year (and ultimately I gave the green light for it to be in the show as it was more than 25 years old, made by a manufacturer, and built off the original AC molds) will surely spawn a whole rash of plastic Cobras trying to register next year. Most of the time we can catch them before show day because of the entry form and tell them thanks, but no thanks, but like I said, the guys who flat-out lie on the forms and sign the box that says their car is stock, well, what to do about them? Turning them away at the gate always causes a scene and clogs the entrance while they fight and scream, often just to spite us. Several times I've just taken out my wallet and started peeling off $20s to make the guy go away quietly because he was demanding a refund of his entry fee. Fine, here's your money. Still not good enough? What now then? I've never been hit, but I've been prepared for it. People lose their friggin' minds over this stuff.


What is the answer? I don't know. It's a problem. I'm sure all show organizers face it. Most of the people we turn away before show day are understanding, some are understanding on the day of the show, but sadly, many more are not. I don't know why. I wouldn't be angry if I showed up in my 1941 Buick at the Model A Club national meet and was asked not to come in, but it seems the guys who own modified cars don't really see the difference. 

 

Modified cars are a fact of life. Their owners are no less passionate than we are, albeit about different aspects of the hobby. If there's a way to make them understand that turning them away isn't saying their car sucks, and to do it without inconveniencing everyone else and without wrecking anybody's day, well, I'd love to hear it.

 

But I haven't and I don't expect I will.

 Matt, you didn't answer my question. So Again;

  Once again, there seems to be some cloudiness on AACA's part. If you let in modified vehicles at a local AACA event which the club or chapter does, and lets modified cars in on a tour etc., with what I hear is the hope that some of these people will see things our way about cars and convert.  I think you are mistaken. So you allow these modified cars to go on tours, or have modified cars in a driver participation class and now these people become members and now they want their cars in the big time shows. Can you now blame them???  In a sense the organization has created the irate modified car owner themselves. You've put a wedge in the door yourselves to let people in on certain events and then say you can't go the big time with your modified car.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

So you allow these modified cars to go on tours, or have modified cars in a driver participation class and now these people become members and now they want their cars in the big time shows. Can you now blame them???  In a sense the organization has created the irate modified car owner themselves. You've put a wedge in the door yourselves to let people in on certain events and then say you can't go the big time with your modified car.

 

DPC has been an AACA Class for 18 years. DPC cars are eligible for National Meets and Tours. What do you mean by, "in the big time shows"? If you mean National AACA meets, they have been eligible for 18 years. I have a DPC car. It is not a viable candidate for either HPOF or Class Judging, but it is certainly not anything that anybody would typically call a "modified" car. It is a Survivor that has had too much work done to be eligible for HPOF, and it is not in the shape necessary for Class Judging. It is a Driver, which is exactly what DPC was formed for. 

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7 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

DPC has been an AACA Class for 18 years. DPC cars are eligible for National Meets and Tours. What do you mean by, "in the big time shows"? If you mean National AACA meets, they have been eligible for 18 years. I have a DPC car. It is not a viable candidate for either HPOF or Class Judging, but it is certainly not anything that anybody would typically call a "modified" car. It is a Survivor that has had too much work done to be eligible for HPOF, and it is not in the shape necessary for Class Judging. It is a Driver, which is exactly what DPC was formed for. 

The big shows would be national meets. but I would have the chapters all on the same page too. 

 As far as the DPC category I would forbid things like  alloy wheels of the same era and/or same vehicle manufacturer, radio upgrades, electrical upgrades, brake upgrades (bolt on), steering upgrades (bolt on), air conditioning, overdrive system and altered exhaust.

The emphasis of the club is Antique cars-restored or not, and as my antique auto insurance agent says to me I will say it to you, the minute you change a vehicle from being stock it is no longer a antique car, it is now a modified car. It might be a collectable car, but it's no longer a antique car.

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28 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

 Matt, you didn't answer my question. So Again;

  Once again, there seems to be some cloudiness on AACA's part. If you let in modified vehicles at a local AACA event which the club or chapter does, and lets modified cars in on a tour etc., with what I hear is the hope that some of these people will see things our way about cars and convert.  I think you are mistaken. So you allow these modified cars to go on tours, or have modified cars in a driver participation class and now these people become members and now they want their cars in the big time shows. Can you now blame them???  In a sense the organization has created the irate modified car owner themselves. You've put a wedge in the door yourselves to let people in on certain events and then say you can't go the big time with your modified car.

 

 

 

I don't disagree. That's what I meant when I mentioned the push-back we get when a guy sees a modified car at the show and tries to register his the following year (see the part about ersatz Cobras). I don't have a solution. I agree that there's a slippery slope and that the line is wide and blurry.

 

At the moment, it doesn't seem that radically modified cars are showing up on AACA tours or at big shows, although clones, tributes, and re-creations can certainly be considered a problem if you want to look at it that way. How do you feel about my wife's 1956 Chrysler wagon, to which I am adding aftermarket A/C this winter--should she be allowed to bring it to AACA events? We don't care about judging, but we like to participate. 

 

I suspect that like our local show, the people who run most AACA events prefer it to run smoothly and for as many people to have fun as possible, rather than making it miserable for some yet exactly the same for others. See what I'm saying? I try to retain the idea that this is just a stupid car club and it's supposed to be fun--it's not actually important. Being militant doesn't help that goal. I certainly understand wanting to keep things completely within the stated intent of the club, and I think it's achievable within reason, but there's no way to draw a hard line in the sand and enforce it and not have some angry people.

 

And that isn't fun, especially not for the guy running the show and trying to push people onto one side or the other. 

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Personally, “disgusting” is not a term I have ever used when referring to enjoying vehicles and their history.  I would replace it with a term such as “curious,” then read this thread and learn something about cars that I may not have known before.  

 

Mission accomplished.

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18 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

The big shows would be national meets. but I would have the chapters all on the same page too. 

 As far as the DPC category I would forbid things like  alloy wheels of the same era and/or same vehicle manufacturer, radio upgrades, electrical upgrades, brake upgrades (bolt on), steering upgrades (bolt on), air conditioning, overdrive system and altered exhaust.

The emphasis of the club is Antique cars-restored or not, and as my antique auto insurance agent says to me I will say it to you, the minute you change a vehicle from being stock it is no longer a antique car, it is now a modified car. It might be a collectable car, but it's no longer a antique car.

 

So you complain about DPC cars not being eligible for National Meets - Apparently not knowing that DPC cars have been eligible for National Meets for 18 years.

You also don't think that DPC cars should be able to have any of the easily reversible bolt on upgrades that have been allowed in DPC for the past 18 years.  

 

I don't understand your point at all.  If you don't like anything about the Driver Participation Class, I suggest you run for the board and follow the club's procedures to change the rules, although I don't expect you to have much luck with that platform. DPC has been a very popular addition to AACA over the past 18 years.  

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10 minutes ago, Matt Harwood said:

 

I don't disagree. That's what I meant when I mentioned the push-back we get when a guy sees a modified car at the show and tries to register his the following year (see the part about ersatz Cobras). I don't have a solution. I agree that there's a slippery slope and that the line is wide and blurry.

 

At the moment, it doesn't seem that radically modified cars are showing up on AACA tours or at big shows, although clones, tributes, and re-creations can certainly be considered a problem if you want to look at it that way. How do you feel about my wife's 1956 Chrysler wagon, to which I am adding aftermarket A/C this winter--should she be allowed to bring it to AACA events? We don't care about judging, but we like to participate. 

 

I suspect that like our local show, the people who run most AACA events prefer it to run smoothly and for as many people to have fun as possible, rather than making it miserable for some yet exactly the same for others. See what I'm saying? I try to retain the idea that this is just a stupid car club and it's supposed to be fun--it's not actually important. Being militant doesn't help that goal. I certainly understand wanting to keep things completely within the stated intent of the club, and I think it's achievable within reason, but there's no way to draw a hard line in the sand and enforce it and not have some angry people.

 

And that isn't fun, especially not for the guy running the show and trying to push people onto one side or the other. 

Your wife's wagon; If you read my response to MC Hinson? However, If you were to add a complete factory air and did it properly ( which judging rules say you can do) I wouldn't know it happened unless I saw the cars build sheet. I won't see build sheet, and it's already allowed in class judging so it's no problem. If the A/C is a Vintage Air I would rather your car be at a local car show.

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2 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

Your wife's wagon; If you read my response to MC Hinson? However, If you were to add a complete factory air and did it properly ( which judging rules say you can do) I wouldn't know it happened unless I saw the cars build sheet. I won't see build sheet, and it's already allowed in class judging so it's no problem. If the A/C is a Vintage Air I would rather your car be at a local car show.

Holier than thou arguements have probly killed alot of clubs.

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7 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

So you complain about DPC cars not being eligible for National Meets - Apparently not knowing that DPC cars have been eligible for National Meets for 18 years.

You also don't think that DPC cars should be able to have any of the easily reversible bolt on upgrades that have been allowed in DPC for the past 18 years.  

 

I don't understand your point at all.  If you don't like anything about the Driver Participation Class, I suggest you run for the board and follow the club's procedures to change the rules, although I don't expect you to have much luck with that platform. DPC has been a very popular addition to AACA over the past 18 years.  

My objection  is DPC cars can have modifications. It is not in the spirit of a antique car. Antique automobile club cars should be antiques, points judged class, DPC, class, tours.

 

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8 minutes ago, Pfeil said:

My objection  is DPC cars can have modifications. It is not in the spirit of a antique car. Antique automobile club cars should be antiques, points judged class, DPC, class, tours.

 

 

You are entitled to your opinion. Your comments in this discussion tend to show that you don't know much about the class. It has been around for a long time and clearly has a lot of members who approve of it. The few specific modifications that are allowed in DPC are all easily reversed and from my casual observation, most DPC cars don't have them anyway. The most common modification in DPC cars is radial tires instead of bias ply tires. Personally, I drove my 6 volt - bias ply tire - DPC 1937 Buick from North Carolina to Indiana for an AACA meet. I suggest you learn a bit more about the class before you spend too much time objecting to the class rules and denigrating the cars in the class. 

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8 minutes ago, billorn said:

Holier than thou arguements have probly killed alot of clubs.

I'm sorry, this is not a superiority argument. A antique car club is about antique cars, not modified cars.

I have seen one national brand of car club torn apart by letting modified cars in. I have seen another national brand of car club completely dissolve because of letting modified cars in.  

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6 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

You are entitled to your opinion. Your comments in this discussion tend to show that you don't know much about the class. It has been around for a long time and clearly has a lot of members who approve of it. The few specific modifications that are allowed in DPC are all easily reversed and from my casual observation, most DPC cars don't have them anyway. The most common modification in DPC cars is radial tires instead of bias ply tires. Personally, I drove my 6 volt - bias ply tire - DPC 1937 Buick from North Carolina to Indiana for an AACA meet. I suggest you learn a bit more about the class before you spend too much time objecting to the class rules and denigrating the cars in the class. 

Ok, you ask me to explain my point so I do that, and then you tell me I'm denigrating the cars in the class and I don't know anything about the class.

My objection  is DPC cars can have modifications. It is not in the spirit of a antique car. Antique automobile club cars should be antiques, points judged class, DPC, class, tours. 

BTW, a condescending tone about not knowing much of the class is not welcome. The class is plain as day, but that's not the issue. The issue was I would change the class so that all the cars in it would be antique cars. A car is no longer antique after it's modified.

 

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8 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Ok, you ask me to explain my point so I do that, and then you tell me I'm denigrating the cars in the class and I don't know anything about the class.

My objection  is DPC cars can have modifications. It is not in the spirit of a antique car. Antique automobile club cars should be antiques, points judged class, DPC, class, tours. 

BTW, a condescending tone about not knowing much of the class is not welcome. The class is plain as day, but that's not the issue. The issue was I would change the class so that all the cars in it would be antique cars. A car is no longer antique after it's modified.

 

 

Your earlier post complained about letting modified cars in the club but not letting them in "the big time shows". DPC cars have been allowed in National Meets and Tours for 18 years. I am not attempting to be condescending, I am replying to your comments that demonstrate that you don't seem to understand the 18 year history of the class in AACA. I have also previously told you that if you want to change the rules, you need to try to get elected to the board of directors. Constantly complaining about the rules here is not going to change them. 

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Pfeil

Your definition of "spirit of antique car" is much more rigid than most hobbyists view. AACA is made up many, many different types of people, each enjoying the hobby in his own way. AACA tries to accommodate as many as possible, without going over the edge and allowing customs and hot rods in. It has worked for two decades, and our show fields have NOT had an influx of hot rods. I AM SURE that if a problem arose with true hot rods starting to infiltrate our DPC class, or any other class, the AACA Board of Directors would step up to the plate and make the appropriate changes.

 

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10 hours ago, Pfeil said:

My objection  is DPC cars can have modifications. It is not in the spirit of a antique car. Antique automobile club cars should be antiques, points judged class, DPC, class, tours.

 

 

You use the term "spirit of" when in fact you really want a rigid, hard set of rules that insist every car be absolutely authentic. You want cars to be exactly as they were when they were new or kick them out. That's not "in the spirit" of anything. Nobody is proposing lead sleds and chopped '32 Fords in AACA, but kicking out cars with radial tires? Aftermarket batteries? Modern spark plugs? Upgraded lighting? Urethane paint? Modern oils? Where, exactly, is your line? It sure sounds like you want all or nothing.

 

There's already an AACA class for absolute authenticity, and those cars get judged on their accuracy and how close they are to new. There are also classes for cars that are driven regularly and classes for those that have merely continued to exist for decades, and if they've picked up incorrect (but functional) parts over the many years they've been in operation, well, I think that's OK. Why? Because the "spirit" of the club is to enjoy owning and driving an old car, not necessarily an obsessive devotion to absolute authenticity (although if that's your thing, I think it's great and it's a worthwhile part of the club). I recon you'd find that casting such a rigid line in the sand would result in a club with about eight members who are constantly at each other's throats because none of them can agree what grade of steel was used on the connecting rod bolts in a 1923 Frankenmuzer roadster.

 

Pump the brakes a little, eh? The way the hobby and the club flourishes isn't by making things harder and more rigid, it's by being accommodating and finding a place for those who want to participate "in the spirit" of the club's intentions. That doesn't mean chopped tops and small block Chevy transplants in the AACA, because that's not the intent of the club; it merely means putting the cars in a class where changes, if any, are defined and disclosed. Just because the AACA allows cars with radial tires and alternators doesn't mean that engine transplants and upgraded suspensions and wild body modifications should be just as permissible.

 

There's a difference and you know it; you're just being pedantic to make a point.

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Wow, the most popular thread this week. This is exactly why I no longer Judge.

 

I like Pontiac Snowflake wheels. They were available in everything from 13x6 4x100 to 15x8 (in the 70s) and 5x5. They were later called "Crosslaced" in 16x7 5x115 & others. Most were made by the Motor Wheel co.

snowflake.jpg

 

I do not care for the current trend for lotsa spokes and staggered tires/wheels.

 

ps Snob comes from the English public school system. Once they began admitting commoners there became a question of how to classify them, the record books needed an honorific. To fill the gap, registrars began adding in that block "S. Nob." meaning Sine (without) Nobilis (nobility) or trailer trash.

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11 hours ago, Pfeil said:

Ok, you ask me to explain my point so I do that, and then you tell me I'm denigrating the cars in the class and I don't know anything about the class.

My objection  is DPC cars can have modifications. It is not in the spirit of a antique car. Antique automobile club cars should be antiques, points judged class, DPC, class, tours. 

BTW, a condescending tone about not knowing much of the class is not welcome. The class is plain as day, but that's not the issue. The issue was I would change the class so that all the cars in it would be antique cars. A car is no longer antique after it's modified.

 

FINALLY we get to the root of your discontent, in your last sentence above. Certainly you are entitled to your opinion and I most certainly disagree. DPC is a brilliant concept that works very well. By allowing certain easily reversible modifications, it encourages owners to preserve, drive and enjoy their antique ( yes they are still antiques) vehicles. Most importantly, these DPC owners are valued participants. I don't really get what your end game is. Your rigid exclusionary approach would drastically shrink club participation , and for no good purpose, as it would do nothing to encourage the preservation and enjoyment of antique automobiles.

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