GM Oshawa Plant in Canada to Close

[John348]

13 hours ago, Locomobile said:

It never mattered to me what the company I worked for made (or my coworkers), as long as I received the pay I felt I deserved and it was issued on time and the check didn't bounce, beyond that it wasn't any of my business.

 

You misunderstand the free market which fueled the industrial revolution. Do you really think anyone in this day and age would take a job in a plant making $5 an hour?

 

Some of the UAW folks are making 61 dollars per hour plus benefits, with only a high school education. Bully for them if they can do it, but they look rather foolish accusing the big bad company of greed, making that sort of money and their mantra is "whatever they offer, it isn't enough". The taxpayers bailed out GM by buying their stock which incidentally the taxpayers lost 11 billion dollars on, the next time they need a bailout, people should make their voices heard and protest. And there will be a next time.

 

The unions like to take responsibility for anything good that happened to the labor force, most of it is BS. They claimed they ended child labor, they lobbied in 1881 for laws prohibiting any one under 14 working a public job. 14? Since then the states have passed several laws regarding labor relations and the unions had nothing to do with it. They take responsibility for the "weekend", our deeply religious forefathers did not work on Sunday so that is probably BS too.

 

The reason wages are stagnant is not due to lack of representation, it's a flooded labor market, abundance and low demand - free markets at work.

 

You never addressed that companies did not keep up the plants, that's OK I am sure you have an answer

Edited October 29, 2019 by John348 (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

13 minutes ago, John348 said:

You never addressed that companies did not keep up the plants, that OK I am sure you have an answer

 

I don't know what you're talking about to be honest. Keep up what plants? It's no secret that manufacturers are getting away from the union dense northern midwest; why would they invest in a plant they are going to shutter? Which means shutting it down and moving elsewhere, unfortunately that elsewhere has been Mexico or Asia.

 

At one time the Detroit auto works operated without unions, Henry had trouble getting labor and eventually had to pay 5 times the going rate for labor. That is the free market in action. No unions, no strikes, he needed it and had to pay that to get it. That goes for non union jobs nowadays, the unions would have us believe that without them, we'd all be working for minimum wage, that's not true, a lot of non union shops pay good living wages, they have to, to get the skilled people they need.

 

-Ron

[1912Staver]

Union or not the reality is that the vast majority of middle class incomes have not kept up with inflation over the last 25 years or so. The top 20 % and up however have done very well indeed. and the top 10 % outstandingly well

I doubt any auto assembly line job puts a person in the top 20 % of incomes in either Canada or the U.S. Although $61.00 / hour is probably close.  In Canada particularly  $61.00 / hour would be a very good wage.  Are Canadian 

assembly plant workers actually making that much ? If so they are making more than Teachers or Nurses with a Masters degree in most provinces. { I have a Niece and a Wife with those qualifications and neither is making $61.00 / hour, more like $48 / hour Canadian, about $37.00 USD }

 

Greg in Canada

 

[John348]

3 hours ago, Locomobile said:

 

I don't know what you're talking about to be honest. Keep up what plants? 

 

Ron,

The plants became antiquated because the manufacturers refused to invest in modernization. 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Locomobile said:

 the unions would have us believe that without them, we'd all be working for minimum wage, that's not true, a lot of non union shops pay good living wages, they have to, to get the skilled people they need

 

Ron,

How could anyone ever know that? But we do have unions so there is nothing else to compare it with, to justify that opinion on history. You mentioned "Henry"  how about the battle of the overpass in 1937?  His concerns for the working man were highlighted there https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Overpass

  

I can see that this discussion is just going to go nowhere my friend. As a retired third generation skilled union tradesman and the father of the fourth generation, I just have trouble viewing things from the perspective of a titan of industry., like you do. I am sure you can understand that.

Have a good day

[8E45E]

12 hours ago, John348 said:

 

You never addressed that companies did not keep up the plants, that OK I am sure you have an answer

The only flaw in that comment is when plants are 'updated', it usually means there will be LESS workers as these updates fully include robotization; especially for hazardous tasks such as applying paint finish.

 

Compare the assembly videos of 1936 Chevrolets with brand new Teslas:   

Craig

Edited October 29, 2019 by 8E45E (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

Unions and modern plants and big government are not incompatible with a successful auto industry. Look at Germany. They have clean, modern auto plants staffed by highly trained, highly paid technicians  turning out the most modern cars. Union representatives sit on the boards of directors of BMW, Mercedes and VW. But somehow they make it work. The union leaders seem to put the interests of their members first, and do not see the ruin of their employers as a desirable goal in itself. This is more than you can say of the UAW especially in Canada. You can't blame the demise of the Canadian auto industry on any one party. It took  a massive effort by unions, management and government. I never saw such team work. Too bad it was directed at ruining the auto industry and not saving it.

[8E45E]

6 minutes ago, Rusty_OToole said:

But somehow they make it work.

A big HUGE reason they make it work in Germany is because they have love for what they build, and are proud to own an example!

 

I've known many who have worked on assembly plants here in North America 1970's who wouldn't even think of owning a vehicle from their own employer because of the lack of quality, which still pervades to this day.

 

Craig

[bryankazmer]

while the German labor unions and management do have a cooperating relationship, Germany's labor costs are the highest in Europe, so new factories have been built for the most part outside Germany, in places like Austria or Poland.

 

In terms of build quality and purchasing today in the US, remember that OEM workers may buy their make because of working there, but also because the OEM gives them a substantial discount.  The supply chain, who deal with multiple OEM's, have a broader viewpoint, and a number of people there  do "boycott" certain OEM's because of either quality or business practices.

[Joe in Canada]

13 hours ago, John348 said:

Some of the UAW folks are making 61 dollars per hour plus benefits, with only a high school education.

In Canada no one in the union makes that kind of money.  The new hire wages are $16. per Hr. with no pension  and only minimal benefits and they can still not compete with Mexico. As far as union rep wages they get payee skilled trade wages plus their overtime.

Anyone know who in the US UAW gets payee $61 or is it a friend of a friend of a friend statement???

Ford announced yesterday they are going to reduce manpower in their only assembly plant in Oakville  Canada by 400 personnel. The righting is on the wall for auto manufacturing up here and the US is following suit in the same pattern of reduction. 

Edited October 29, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[39BuickEight]

1 hour ago, Rusty_OToole said:

Unions and modern plants and big government are not incompatible with a successful auto industry.

 

This is exactly right.  I would add the term global in there somewhere too.  After all, the growth of the global manufacturing process has caused so many jobs to leave.  We are trying to combine the workforce and labor of "poor" countries with the consumerism of America, and that is not sustainable.  The math doesn't allow it.

 

There are too many new cars manufactured in general, but the US is so incredibly dependent on the auto industry, changing anything about it displeases too many for any reasonable decision to be made.

Edited October 29, 2019 by 39BuickEight (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

8 hours ago, John348 said:

Ron,

The plants became antiquated because the manufacturers refused to invest in modernization. 

 

Not sure what is being referenced here, I spent my tenure in Detroit designing and building line side assembly tooling for the automotive industry. There are some new plants and most of the plants that I worked in were continually upgraded and retooled. Although some were closed, and even raised like the Wixom plant. We made a lot of tooling for that plant over the years, that is where the T-bird was built. They aren't going to come out and admit it, but there is a definite thrust for the autos to move out of the Detroit area. Ford still has the Rouge complex, but they are parting it out, they sold the steel mill years ago and last time I was there some of the older assembly area was idle. The new F-150 plant is going strong. GM did the same with Lear seating, Johnson Controls and Visteon.

 

 

51 minutes ago, Joe in Canada said:

Anyone know who in the US UAW gets payee $61 or is it a friend of a friend of a friend statement???

 

That is what the news reported, that some of the people out on strike were making 61 dollars per hour. This is from the Detroit Free Press:

 

"

"Specifically, GM's all-in manufacturing costs that it pays its workers are the highest of any (automaker) in the U.S. at $63 per hour.Sep 27, 2019"

 

Average wages at a GM plant in the US is $90,000 USD/year.

 

32 minutes ago, 39BuickEight said:

We are trying to combine the workforce and labor of "poor" countries with the consumerism of America, and that is not sustainable.  The math doesn't allow it.

 

Agreed.

 

-Ron

[1912Staver]

The $90,000.00 / year sounds believable. But that's only $46.00 / hr on a 37 1/2 hour week. Quite a jump to $63.00 .  I suspect many tradesmen make a wage in the $90,000.00 a year range. And I am sure those cost

figures also include some people with higher skills than assemblers. Most likely several levels of skilled trades and plant maintenance engineers. Someone has to keep all that automation running and it won't be the 

assembly guy's.

Greg in Canada

Edited October 29, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[bryankazmer]

The ratio of wage to total cost sounds about right, especially for a UAW benefit package.  All-in cost to the company in the 1.4 - 1.5 times wage range.  Some of the reported info is confounding  the person's gross pay with the employer's total labor cost.

[Locomobile]

4 hours ago, Joe in Canada said:

Ford announced yesterday they are going to reduce manpower in their only assembly plant in Oakville  Canada by 400 personnel.

 

That's not good news. I worked in that plant too, they were building the Windstar there if I remember correctly, nice area up there. They offered me a job as a toolmaker and I was really thinking about taking it. Didn't want to leave the US though as it was way too far to commute. Those guys were always getting smokes from me, I guess they liked American cigarettes better. They have better beer there though.

 

-Ron

Edited October 29, 2019 by Locomobile (see edit history)

[Rusty_OToole]

$61 - $63 is the cost to the employer not what the worker gets. It includes expenses and fringe benefits. Health insurance alone costs $800 to $1000 per person per month.

[C Carl]

What wage agreement came out of the recent UAW strike ?    -   CC 

[bryankazmer]

Hamtramck (Impala and CT6) stays open and will build electric pick-up

Lordstown stays closed, two transmission plants close

profit sharing cap of $12k removed

no increase in health care cost to employee

$1000 to pension of hires before 2007

minimum wage to increase to $32.32 by Sept 2023

 

I think that puts the minimum 2023 labor cost to about $50/hr, so that $60+/hr average seems quite plausible.

Fresh paint on the Titanic?

 

[1912Staver]

How do those wages compare to someone like a machinist, plumber or a pipefitter in the same region ?  I realise there should be a wage difference between skilled trades and plant workers but is it that big a gap ?

Are the UAW workers that overpaid compared to other North American workers ? Obviously almost any of us are overpaid compared to offshore labor but we also don't have a cost of living even remotely close to

China or Vietnam. Are all of our kids going to be minimum  wage earners ?

 

Greg in Canada

[bryankazmer]

A more relevant comparison might be factory workers at other plants.  Their starting wages are more like $12 - 17/hr, plus benefits, 401K no pension.

There are a lot of opinions about what all of this should be, but factually, for entry level basic skill work OEM UAW workers are paid a great deal more than what workers doing similar work are paid.

 

Skilled trades like electricians, plumbers, machinists, tool makers are paid more wherever they are compared to basic skill positions.

[C Carl]

Not ALL, Greg, and, more likely the GRANDKIDS, or great grandkids. Inevitably, at some point, labor will find itself condemned to an existence resembling 19th and early 20th Century industrial feudalism. Snug and secure in company housing, the Company Store replacing Amazon. No minimum wage necessary at all. AhhhhhHHHHHH !!!!!!!  You-toe-flippin'-pee-uh. Guess I was born 100 years too early.                 Sob - 😢,      -     Cadillac Carl 

[mike6024]

What are the Tesla line workers paid? anyone know?

 

http://www.indeed.com/cmp/Tesla/salaries?location=US%2FCA%2FFremont

 

Production & Manufacturing    AVERAGE SALARY    SALARY DISTRIBUTION
Production Associate
18 salaries reported
$19.79 per hour
$7.25
$67.40
Tool and Die Maker
19 salaries reported
$97,276 per year
$14,500
$134,800
Production Worker
10 salaries reported
$18.60 per hour
$7.25
$67.40
Assembler
10 salaries reported
$19.02 per hour
$7.25
$67.40
Production Assembler
4 salaries reported
$58,693 per year

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by mike6024 (see edit history)

[padgett]

Tool and Die Maker has always been a highly paid occupation and takes a lot of skill. About the top of the hourly food chain.

[Locomobile]

On 11/5/2019 at 10:58 AM, 1912Staver said:

How do those wages compare to someone like a machinist, plumber or a pipefitter in the same region

 

Not well. Around Detroit, apprentice machinist (sweeper/helper) is about 12 - 16/hr. Competent millhand 18-28/hr. Lathehand, sadly about 12 -20/hr. That is in a mostly manual one-off shop, a predominantly CNC based (one-ff and production) shop is different, there are a few programmers and set up men that make 20-30+/hr and then the rest are parts changers and button pushers which make in some cases a little above minimum wage.

 

A full blown off the bench toolmaker or diemaker (they are really two different trades) can make whatever he demands, but it is generally in the 30-40/hr range.

 

The latter jobs mentioned require years of experience and study of metallurgy and machining and manufacturing process and techniques. And too, these men will have as much as 10,000 dollars worth of personal tooling that accompanies them.

 

-Ron

[Joe in Canada]

The problem is there is very little demand for tool and die compared to the pre free trade time. When you loose manufacturing like we did in the past 20 years there will be less demand for  many of the trades.  I bought mills, lathes, radial drills plus tooling equipping my own hobby shop over the years at a fraction of their value because of the downturn. I would not recommend tool and die as a trade to anyone. Just from my own personal observation.

Edited November 8, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[mike6024]

Tesla has Tool and Die for plastics, injection molding

 

Tool and Die Specialist, Gigafactory 1

 

The successful candidate for the Tool & Die position in our Plastics & Stamping Center will be responsible for supporting the procurement of new and replacement Injection molding tools and stamping dies, trial runs of new molds/dies, cleaning, maintaining, and repair of all Tesla’s molds & dies. The candidate should be well versed in the operation of basic tool room equipment. Additionally desired specialized skill sets include: Laser Micro welding, TIG & MIG welding; Basic proficiency in the following software a big plus: Solidworks, Catia, & Surfcam software.

5+ years of extensive experience maintaining injection molding tools, or stamping dies, or high pressure die casting equipment.

 

Tool & Die Specialist, Plastics

Responsibilities
• Maintain mold PM system, including detailed work instructions and manage on schedule completion of PM activities
• Follow mold cleaning method and adherence to schedule
• Support defect troubleshooting procedures to minimize mold down times during production
• Support mold preparation check sheets and trial procedures

 

Tool& Die Specialist, Plastics

Responsibilities

·Maintainmold PM system, including detailed work instructions and manage on schedulecompletion of PM activities

·Followmold cleaning method and adherence to schedule

·Supportdefect troubleshooting procedures to minimize mold down times during production

·Supportmold preparation check sheets and trial procedures

·Maintainmold spare parts lists and ensure parts are set up and in stock

[bryankazmer]

none of those positions are actually about designing and building molds - Tesla hires that out, as most do

[Joe in Canada]

A true die design story. A friend went to Korea to have a few dies made for vintage pickups. While he was there having a tour of the facility he observed a die being manufactured. The problem was the sample part was damaged and they were putting that in the die they were making. The Koreans have never seen a 50s or 60s North American built car so they would not know the difference of a good part to a bad part. So much for off shore repro parts that do not fit.

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by Joe in Canada (see edit history)

[Restorer32]

Acquaintance had a tool and die shop employing 20 machinists. He saw the handwriting on the wall when he was given the job of machining a set of dies to make plastic roof vents. The dies were to make 7 identical pieces at the same time. He was paid to produce the first of the 7 then the die was sent to China to have the other 6 die sets made using the one he did as a pattern.

[1912Staver]

Sadly I am reminded of the old story of Edward Turner, Triumph and BSA motorcycle kingpin. Apparently one day he called a meeting of his technical staff and pointedly reminded them that the company was not in business to " make motorcycles " but rather to " make money ".  No point 

making a great motorcycle like Vincent if it led the company to insolvency. Much the same a Pierce Arrow and all the other long gone , great product company's . If you don't find a way of doing it cheaper you can be assured your competitors eventually will.  Not a very encouraging picture for the industrialised West 

in the Global economy. It's definitely not a level playing field, not even close.

 

Greg in Canada

[Mark Gregory]

FINAL DAY of production at the GM Oshawa Plant today.

 

In the 1980's it employed 23,000 people and could produce as many as 730,000 cars and trucks a year. 

 

I guess NAFTA which came into effect in 1994 did not help all these workers ?

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/gm-oshawa-plant-final-production-1.5400439

 

General Motors is winding down production at its Oshawa assembly plant as an era of vehicle production for the southern Ontario city prepares to come to a close.

Some of the roughly 2,600 direct employees are expected to produce the final vehicles today, though the company cautions the exact timeline could still shift.

 

[Buffalowed Bill]

It's always sad to see an end of an era, and to see people loosing there job. Hopefully there will be a concern interested in filling the void. In our full employment economy, I would expect some movement towards utilizing that workforce. Globally labor is always in demand, the problem is that other things have to align themselves, before labor can be utilized(credit secured, plants built etc.)

 

In the last seventy years we have seen the global, lower rungs of labor market move from the US to Japan, then to Korea, on to China. With the exception of the 70's our economy has benefited from lower inflation rates then we could have expected in a full employment economy. The downside of course is that the world is different today, wage growth has been stagnant. Companies will move when they can find what they need. unfortunately there will always be some structural voids created when there is movement. The upside is that the US economy has benefited  by about $50 trillion dollars, over the last seventy years, the equivalent of two to three years of GDP. The whole world has benefited greatly from the global economy, during that time.

 

China has suffered from changes in it's own labor market. As labor moves toward more skilled jobs, it has created a shortage in the lower paid job market. This has been coming for some time, and that trend is bound to continue. Neither we, or they have the benefit of the absolute economic value of all the factors of production. Labor market will continue to move back to North America, but not while we are in a full employment economy, and companies can find what they need elsewhere. 

 

The merger between Fiat/Chrysler and Peugeot, and rumblings of new production in the Detroit area, is a reasonable sign of the worldwide labor equilibrium. It is not political to say that global markets work best without the interference of arbitrary imposition of rogue tariffs, which only destroy access to world markets.

 

[mike6024]

This is some good news

 

Ford To Add 3,000 Jobs, Invest $1.45B At Two Detroit-Area Plants