Twelve Dilapitated Lincolns 1925 to 1938

[1950panhead]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1929-Lincoln-Other-1925-to-1938-Judkin-Willoughby-Murray/352509701931?hash=item5213372f2b:g:tycAAOSw11Bb4cFw:rk:1:pf:1&vxp=mtr&frcectupt=true

 

Collection of 12 Classic Lincoln automobiles:

 

Year.    Number.    Style.                          Body

 

1925    31381.      Sedan-7 passenger      Murray 

1928.   48674.      Sedan-7 passenger      Murray

1929.   54844.      Sedan-5 passenger.     Lincoln 

1929.   56675.      Coupe-2 passenger.     Judkin 

1929.   59680.      Town sedan-5 pass.    Lincoln 

1929.   61206.      Sedan-5 passenger.     Lincoln 

1930.   62756.      Sedan-7 passenger.     Lincoln 

1935.   K4839.     Sedan-5 passenger.     Lincoln 

1936.   K5571.     Sedan-7 passenger.     Lincoln 

1936.   K5884.     Sedan-7 passenger.     Lincoln 

1938.   K9188.     Limousine-7 pass.    Willoughby

1938.   K9275.     Sedan-7 passenger.     Lincoln 

[Guest]

Probably some interesting history there.

Too bad it's all lost to the sands of time. 

[K8096]

Looks like whoever accumulated all those Lincolns out in California bought all the ones Jack Passey passed up on because they were either too rough or too ugly.

     

[edinmass]

Jack would have never pass on a Lincoln. I sure miss his smile. RIP my friend.

[Carolina Chevrolet]

One would probably be surprised how much better these cars would look if they were to be pressure washed and put tires on them. Of course being a new seller with no feedback trying to get over 100K doesn't help either. 

[Xander Wildeisen]

Cool stuff sitting in that building, I could do a lot with that group of cars.

[Matt Harwood]

$10 grand each for a bunch of rough 7-passenger sedans, all as a lot? Good luck...

 

I'd consider buying the '35 or one of the '36s as a parts car, but for maybe half that figure. He would really have a better shot selling them one at a time and spreading it out over time so he's not flooding the market. They might each be worth more in parts than they are as complete cars, sad as I am to say it. Wheels, engines, aluminum V12 cylinder heads, Stromberg EE carburetors, rear axles, etc. have a great deal of value in the Lincoln world, as I'm learning rather quickly.

[JACK M]

We have been hearing a lot lately about the 'what's going to happen when' dilemma.

I agree that selling each one over time would be a much more plausible and possibly a more lucrative task.

But someone has been appointed to liquidate ASAP for a number that is probably less than the old coot that died was bragging, thus making the estate believe that this should be quick and easy.

As we have been seeing often lately, the market for this stuff is going away and I hate to see it going out of country because it wont be available for OUR ancestors.

[Matt Harwood]

I agree that they're savable. But the math doesn't add up, and my experience says that the only thing today's enthusiast really cares about is making the numbers add up. Sorry, but every single guy who walks into my shop, buyer or seller, expects to make money on his old car. Without exception. Around here we talk a pretty good game, but there aren't many guys even on this message board who would be willing to walk away from $50-70,000 on a car.

 

If those were 2-doors, or club sedans, or convertibles, of course they would be easy to save (and they would likely have already been saved). But 7-passenger sedans are a pretty tough sell, and this is coming from a guy who only owns sedans including a 7P model. All of those cars are $100,000 or more away from being worth $50-60,000 (a reasonably nice '35 Lincoln 7P sedan has been bouncing around the auction circuit selling each time for $28-36,000 for the past three years, each guy trying to scrape off a few extra bucks from it and failing). There's no reasonable upside argument to be made for restoring such a car. Yes, I agree, they SHOULD be saved. I would love to see all of them restored. But the numbers aren't going to add up and they will be tough to sell as anything but parts cars. Those Lincolns aren't good starter projects for a guy just getting into the hobby, there's not a single part on any of them that will be cheap and easy to restore, and the finished result, while a great car, will be worth pennies on the dollar no matter how spectacular the restoration. You can't restore one of those cars cheaply enough to turn it into an economically viable proposal--I recently had a quote on rebuilding the engine in my '35 Lincoln K and was told it would take a year and cost $30,000 if I can supply the needed parts. That ain't entry-level and that's easily 50% of any of these cars' restored value, all before paint, bodywork, chrome, and interior, never mind the purchase price.

 

For those reasons, I'm perfectly OK with calling these parts cars.

[trimacar]

It used to be that project cars would sell for OK prices, to a hobbyist who would salt it away in his garage and, using his own labor, whittle away at it.  Engine rebuilds were reasonable, chrome wasn't prohibitive, and he might even talk his wife into sewing the upholstery.  Visits to Hershey for those missing parts were fun and parts were actually found at fair prices.

 

Not so today.  The market for project cars is dying a quick death.  Matt is correct on every count, the old days of buying with your heart are mostly gone, and now a financial analysis must take place before any old car acquisition.

 

It's a different world in so many ways.  I'm glad I was part of the period from the 60's through the 80's, great years for car collecting....

[alsfarms]

It is a sad statement, but how many of us do our own work, with our own hands like a good number of fellows in the 50's, 60's and 70's.  SOme work, maybe, but labor costs have killed the real market of the old cars we love.   We are our own worst enemies when it comes to the hobby of antique autos.  It used to be that we could be happy with a clean amateur restoration where we put sweat equity into our cars.  My dad used to say that big money takes over anything, and changes how we think about it....only money.  I agree with Matt above, but its to bad that we have taken away the dreams of the next generation as they simply will turn away from a beautiful but unrestored car as all they can see is money to repair this and that and with not one intention of doing any of it in their own home shop.  I also see another shift with all the hot rods.... big money has also taken over that sector of the hobby.  I see now some tired retro rods failing to find buyers for 1/2 the dollars that it took to build them, (the market is getting saturated).  In my thinking,  eventually anything that can come close to a survivor will certainly have a following.  If the owner of this group of Lincolns was willing more could be saved but likely will not be as our cost for hiring everything out is over the top.  Maybe in Europe, labor is cheaper or many over there still do work with their own hands.  I wish the best for the owners of the Lincolns and also for whoever takes on any of these cars.

Al

[Xander Wildeisen]

You are all right, that is why the street rod/custom side is so big. 30G's for an engine rebuild. About $6,800 gets you a 430-480 horse LS3. I see a good market for some of those cars. Even a few restored custom pickup conversions. Markets change, but innovation and fresh ideas breath new life into things that have been left for dead. Cool stuff sitting in that building, beautiful one off customs could be built with that stuff. 

[C Carl]

40 minutes ago, RICHELIEUMOTORCAR said:

Ah I have to jump in again. ....................................................................................................................  There are reasons why old cars are leaving the US. I think we all know the main reason which I will not say. 

 

OK. I will take a gentle hop in again. Heeeeeeeeere I go  :  First, perhaps ALL of us do not know the main reason why. But I do. Now being in my mid '70s, I, as a much younger man, lived, was educated, worked, and enjoyed hobbies, in a rather different country and world than the present. Having also lived, travelled, hobby'ed, and worked in diverse countries in Europe and Latin America for a total of about 8 years, I think I have insights difficult to duplicate through other means. Quite simply, we do have a declining middle class, with priorities different from those of 40, 50, or 60 years ago. In some of the countries I am familiar with, what "middle class" there was, could not afford toys at all. I knew a guy in Chile where I was pursuing hobby interests, who had 2 PhDs, worked 2 jobs, had 2 children and 1 wife, and could not afford to buy a new eyepiece for his hobby telescope. Think it can't happen here ?   -  Still PLURAL Cadillac : Carl 

[1912Staver]

57 minutes ago, C Carl said:

 

OK. I will take a gentle hop in again. Heeeeeeeeere I go  :  First, perhaps ALL of us do not know the main reason why. But I do. Now being in my mid '70s, I, as a much younger man, lived, was educated, worked, and enjoyed hobbies, in a rather different country and world than the present. Having also lived, travelled, hobby'ed, and worked in diverse countries in Europe and Latin America for a total of about 8 years, I think I have insights difficult to duplicate through other means. Quite simply, we do have a declining middle class, with priorities different from those of 40, 50, or 60 years ago. In some of the countries I am familiar with, what "middle class" there was, could not afford toys at all. I knew a guy in Chile where I was pursuing hobby interests, who had 2 PhDs, worked 2 jobs, had 2 children and 1 wife, and could not afford to buy a new eyepiece for his hobby telescope. Think it can't happen here ?   -  Still PLURAL Cadillac : Carl 

 

Carl , as usual you have hit the nail on the head. Here in Canada the decline is if anything slightly ahead of that in the U.S. The wealthy are of course just as wealthy as ever.  But they are not the people generally interested in project cars unless we are talking about extremely high end cars. So 90 % or so of project cars are facing a very uphill market.

 

Greg in Canada

[edinmass]

Parts cars......he’ll no......they are much too rough to be parts cars. Lincoln’s are GREAT car, and I will own a KB in the future, that being said, even if I were a Lincoln guy, I wouldn’t be in any hurry for those automobiles. If I owned those car, I would cut them up, scrap 70 percent of what’s there including the tin, and then sell the parts. There is no way to move that stuff unless you have good tires, assuming the hubs arn’t locked up. I added up the value of everything there and got twenty grand IF you are local, got to haul the stuff any mileage........forget it. And yes, I have cut up MUCH better cars that were complete, and recently. 

 

Define parts car........I purchased a car, removed three items, and then resold the car right away “as is”. The car was a 90 point running and driving closed car(CCCA), the items then went on a very rare and valuable open car, it was the least expensive way to get what was needed right away. Virtually any closed car pre war can become a parts car. Many 100 point sedans have been purchased as a foundation for a very rough open car, you get all the goodies, and still come out ahead, and can often times sell the body to someone with a closed car project. Happens more often than you think.

[60FlatTop]

I would like to see that building cleaned out and for sale near me. I'd pick up some clean 30 to 40 year old running cars, keep them in decent shape, and drive them around a lot.

 

Of course the true hobbyist would say "Oh, that's the guy who bought the building where that "classic" Lincoln collection was. Got rid of all those nice old cars and filled it with junk."

 

I have been very happy with my middle class, modest participation in the hobby since 1959. And still having a good time with a bright future. Sometimes I get the idea that these old guys lamenting about the past and the abyss of the future are just doing some thinly veiled bragging.

 

3 hours ago, C Carl said:

Quite simply, we do have a declining middle class,

I will agree with that. In 2012 I had a stroke and heart attack that I have recovered from and in better shape than the previous 20 years. One of the doctors told me if I continued to do the right things, for every ten years I lived the medical community would advance enough to give me ten more. The age of 100 to 110 was not unrealistic for me. Very thought provoking, especially the thought of maintaining income.

The first thing I did was research examples of successful business models in what we call "Third World Countries". I guess that pretty much shows my economic forecast.

 

#120,000 for the cars, throw in the building you got a deal.

Bernie

[1912Staver]

There are lots of buildings like that for sale near me. The only hold back is that they are ALL 1,2,3-5 million$. Makes cars look dirt cheap.

 

Greg in Canada

[Guest]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

 

 

Define parts car........I purchased a car, removed three items, and then resold the car right away “as is”. The car was a 90 point running and driving closed car(CCCA), the items then went on a very rare and valuable open car, it was the least expensive way to get what was needed right away. Virtually any closed car pre war can become a parts car. Many 100 point sedans have been purchased as a foundation for a very rough open car, you get all the goodies, and still come out ahead, and can often times sell the body to someone with a closed car project. Happens more often than you think.

 

This is spot on from my limited experience. I restored a basket case '31 Cadillac convertible coupe that was missing many parts. Most of the needed parts were the same as those used on a sedan. I wound up buying two very rough sedans over the course of the project to get what I needed. Most of what was left from the sedans was sold, but quite a bit was scrapped. As Ed stated, it was the "least expensive way to get what was needed right away." If I had it to do again, I would have actually bought a much nicer complete/ running sedan at the outset to get what I needed.  

Edited November 10, 2018 by Guest (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

3 hours ago, edinmass said:

Define parts car........I purchased a car, removed three items, and then resold the car right away “as is”. The car was a 90 point running and driving closed car(CCCA), the items then went on a very rare and valuable open car, it was the least expensive way to get what was needed right away. Virtually any closed car pre war can become a parts car. Many 100 point sedans have been purchased as a foundation for a very rough open car, you get all the goodies, and still come out ahead, and can often times sell the body to someone with a closed car project. Happens more often than you think.

Just the approach I will probably be taking with my Cord if i ever get that far.  When the crazy Cord people want astronomical prices for tid bits,  that most sedans come with.  I will buy and pick the sedan then sell the remnants to another enthusiast or rodder at worst.  It's also a hands on training tool to see how and where all the parts go on my car which has nothing mechanically Cord on it anymore,  so I would be starting from scratch. 

[auburnseeker]

9 hours ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Cool stuff sitting in that building, I could do a lot with that group of cars.

I see a few that would make nice pickup conversions.   Imagine one of those 38's done up as a Pickup as well.  I know blasphemy but they would look pretty cool. 

[1912Staver]

Or tow truck conversions. I always thought it would be nifty to have a big sedan tow truck rig. Quite common at one time but very few were saved.

 

Greg

[Xander Wildeisen]

1 hour ago, auburnseeker said:

I see a few that would make nice pickup conversions.   Imagine one of those 38's done up as a Pickup as well.  I know blasphemy but they would look pretty cool. 

Tough to say it would be blasphemy, when everyone is talking about scrapping them.

[billorn]

3 minutes ago, Xander Wildeisen said:

Tough to say it would be blasphemy, when everyone is talking about scrapping them.

 

I daresay there are many who would prefer to see them parted out and scrapped rather than customized and hot rodded.

[auburnseeker]

I would say do them up kind of to a restored version of how one would have been in the 30's when they were built that way by needy garages.  Auburn even made a cab and box you could buy to turn one of their sedans into a truck.  Done right and brought back to a close resemblance to the original cars would probably garner much more interest than the original sedan would. No Boyd wheels or a crate whatever,  but pretty original.   

[MICKTHEDIG]

I would love to get in there for a few hours with some tools. If that's not going to happen how about one restored to Pebble Beach standard, three restored to drive, four hot rods, two converted to pickup trucks and two parts cars.

 

 

[alsancle]

None of those cars will ever be restored,  maybe one of them has a shot based on condition, and one other (Maybe the Judkins?) has a shot based on what it is.

[John_Mereness]

The 29 Coupe and the 29-30  Close Coupled Sedan - Black are realistically the only two cars that stand a chance at being restored.   A Lincoln of 20's-30's era is a pretty rare car all things considered and if you need a parts car to restore a parts car - then.....

Edited November 11, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[John_Mereness]

Possibly this too - appears to be an Open Front Town Car via windshield.

Edited November 13, 2018 by John_Mereness (see edit history)

[MICKTHEDIG]

They might sell  the bids are up to $50,000

[1912Staver]

I have to say I am a bit puzzled by some of the comments.  Is this not a vintage car forum', are these not vintage cars ? Are vintage Lincolns such a common item that many would have them cherry picked and scrapped ? There are probably more early Lincolns in this one building than in all of Canada.  Is the attitude expressed here just a reflection of an abundance of riches ?

  Not every old car needs to be Pebble Beach quality.  I am sure at least a few of these cars could be tidied up enough to re-enter the hobby as survivor / frequent user quality cars. 

Do you people have any idea of what qualifies as restorable here in Canada, Australia, New Zealand ,England, Europe ?

 Greg in Canada

Edited November 12, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[auburnseeker]

The sheer cost of restoration even to usable condition without being pretty is what holds most back.  Most people don't like buying a pile of work in the form of a car that every part requires a small mortgage because it's a Lincoln and not a Ford, when you can buy a much better example for not much more that doesn't have all the hidden problems any one of these may have.  I used to be more optimistic about mechanical condition before my last two projects required engine rebuilds.  Now they need to run well hot or cold or discounted according to the sweat and parts I will have to put into them to make them that way.  Just look at Matt's Lincoln thread and imagine everyone of these could have the same problems and these are all world's away in condition from his car which atleast looks in very good condition so you don't mind throwing money,  sometimes in piles at it as much as you would one that still looks like a parts car that you just dumped 10G into the drivetrain on to make it run OK. 

[1912Staver]

I hadn't read Matt's thread until now, it sounds like he has gone through a very frustrating experience with his car.   I am glad to hear his luck is starting to turn around and he has had a better time with it lately.

 

 My situation is different than most forum members. Anything I buy in the U.S. faces a number of add on costs, exchange on my near junk bond status $ is the biggest hit, but there are additional costs at the border as well. So I always try to find as low a  up front cost purchase as possible.  I figure , probably wrongly , that I can always improve the car down the road and you never know the exchange might not be as painful at some time in the future. If I looked for a better example the transaction would never happen as the all in cost would add up to a figure I would never be able to swing.

 I am putting a deal together on a Washington State car at the moment, it's from the 70's so not really relevant to a thread about pre-war Lincolns. There is a spare parts package available with the car that would long term probably pay off, however I am more or less forced to turn down that option in order to keep my all in price to something manageable at the present time. I figure that getting the car itself is the main concern , I can always acquire parts as needed, even if over all the cost is a bit higher. 

It is this sort of situation that makes unrestored project cars at least seem interesting to me.

 

Greg

 

 

[alsancle]

The issue is this:  Semi-desirable cars requiring hundreds of thousands of dollars equals parts cars.    If they were open coachwork on 32 KB chassis they chance of restoration would triple.

[auburnseeker]

12 hours ago, 1912Staver said:

I hadn't read Matt's thread until now, it sounds like he has gone through a very frustrating experience with his car.   I am glad to hear his luck is starting to turn around and he has had a better time with it lately.

 

 My situation is different than most forum members. Anything I buy in the U.S. faces a number of add on costs, exchange on my near junk bond status $ is the biggest hit, but there are additional costs at the border as well. So I always try to find as low a  up front cost purchase as possible.  I figure , probably wrongly , that I can always improve the car down the road and you never know the exchange might not be as painful at some time in the future. If I looked for a better example the transaction would never happen as the all in cost would add up to a figure I would never be able to swing.

 I am putting a deal together on a Washington State car at the moment, it's from the 70's so not really relevant to a thread about pre-war Lincolns. There is a spare parts package available with the car that would long term probably pay off, however I am more or less forced to turn down that option in order to keep my all in price to something manageable at the present time. I figure that getting the car itself is the main concern , I can always acquire parts as needed, even if over all the cost is a bit higher. 

It is this sort of situation that makes unrestored project cars at least seem interesting to me.

 

Greg

 

 

The problem you will find with cars like these Lincolns (Same for Cords). though there are probably stashes of parts in multiples out there,  most people with parts contact the experts who then tell them the parts are worth a fortune and they wouldn't sell even simple pieces for less than top dollar.  I contacted a guy with a pile of Cord parts,  though he still didn't have a complete engine or tranny but many multiples of heavy iron parts,  that the factory told him they wouldn't sell for less than 350 a piece.  Now that they have this number stuck in his head,  he wants like 20G for the stash.  (remember a large number of the good cars left have been restored and don't need these parts, most of the rest are crusty enough,  the guy restoring it isn't going to buy them either as he has shallow pockets and just big dreams) Not only did I not want to step into a few truck load of core parts,  why would I lay out a pile of cash that size and still not have many of the parts I need,  when I could buy a complete sedan with everything I need for similar money.  I have tried selling Cord parts and unless you have something real special or supercharge/ open car related the parts sell for little.  Often not even selling.  I've bought some great deals off ebay for pieces for my car.   So I would be sure to spend as much up front for the best example as the cost of parts usually surpasses what seemed like a good deal in the beginning. 

[Peter S]

it's hard to disagree with the points raised -- but I think there's a question of perspective.

 

Sure, the asked price is ridiculous and the odds are that at most 1 or 2 of these cars will ever be "restored" to many extent. Most will continue to molder in somebody else's barn as "too valuable" to sell for what the market will bear until they're scrapped. But hopefully a couple will escape and provide somebody some pleasure as they tinker with them. I'm all for realistic discussion, but really there's such a different attitude here than on the HAMB. In the hot rod community people wax enthusiastic about taking on long-term challenges and there;s a general spirit of optimism, even though plenty of them will ultimately run out of cash, enthusiasm, or both.  It's the sense that the process might be fun, not merely expensive, that is too conspicuously missing here. 

 

Owning a classic car is like having a sailboat; the most prudent financial course would be to fill it with rocks and drill holes through the hull, but the experience you'd miss is priceless.

 

Peter Sefton

[Matt Harwood]

8 minutes ago, Peter S said:

it's hard to disagree with the points raised -- but I think there's a question of perspective.

 

Sure, the asked price is ridiculous and the odds are that at most 1 or 2 of these cars will ever be "restored" to many extent. Most will continue to molder in somebody else's barn as "too valuable" to sell for what the market will bear until they're scrapped. But hopefully a couple will escape and provide somebody some pleasure as they tinker with them. I'm all for realistic discussion, but really there's such a different attitude here than on the HAMB. In the hot rod community people wax enthusiastic about taking on long-term challenges and there;s a general spirit of optimism, even though plenty of them will ultimately run out of cash, enthusiasm, or both.  It's the sense that the process might be fun, not merely expensive, that is too conspicuously missing here. 

 

Owning a classic car is like having a sailboat; the most prudent financial course would be to fill it with rocks and drill holes through the hull, but the experience you'd miss is priceless.

 

Peter Sefton

 

I'm glad the guys who build hot rods are optimistic, and taking on projects is appealing to them. I don't think it's any different here--we love projects and we all have long- and short-term projects we're working on. The gulf between us isn't much different, although our priorities are. Each side will make the argument that their job is the more challenging one, and there's truth to both, but when you're talking about restoring high-end '30s luxury cars, the only route forward involves cubic dollars.

 

I think the biggest difference is that it's easy to be optimistic about a project when your engine is a Chevy small block that you got at a swap meet or traded with a buddy for some wheels. It's a bit harder with these Lincolns where the engine rebuild alone will cost as much as two years of mortgage payments on your house. It isn't that we aren't optimistic, it's just that the scale of a restoration on a car like these Lincolns versus building a hot rod is an economic order of magnitude different. These Lincolns are suffering simply because of that economic formula--they aren't worth enough to restore but they're too valuable to scrap, and turning them into hot rods will be not be cheap nor a guaranteed financial win, either. Believe me, the first thing I did when I saw the hole in my Lincoln V12 engine block was start taking measurements of the Chevy 454 I have sitting in my storage room.

Don't mistake our realistic take on these cars for pessimism. We're all sad that the cars met this fate and that their futures are cloudy at best. We want them to be restored...we just don't want to be the ones to pay for it.

[Xander Wildeisen]

So, would people really rather see them parted out and scrapped, over redone into a modern build? Parts not used would be sold to people restoring Lincolns. Engines, axles, radiators, suspension, brakes, steering, and wheels. All would be out on the open market to be bought. In most cases, priced to sell, to free up space. I understand the desire to restore, but crush over a street rod build.

[Stooge]

I'm a bit curious as to who the type of person bidding on these cars is, (although the bidding history is slightly suspect as it appears 1 person upping the price versus 1 other bidder coming in later), as this can only be losing investment for anyone who didn't inherit the cars, especially at what is basically $10k a pop.  I may be a bit ignorant on prices for driver quality 20s and 30s Lincoln stuff, but for even the one I find most desirable, one of the '29s I believe, and as someone who likes a nice, overwhelming project, i couldn't see it going for more than $4 or $5k  in its current condition from what I see looking for project cars.

 

[Xander Wildeisen]

On 11/10/2018 at 11:25 AM, Xander Wildeisen said:

You are all right, that is why the street rod/custom side is so big. 30G's for an engine rebuild. About $6,800 gets you a 430-480 horse LS3. I see a good market for some of those cars. Even a few restored custom pickup conversions. Markets change, but innovation and fresh ideas breath new life into things that have been left for dead. Cool stuff sitting in that building, beautiful one off customs could be built with that stuff. 

 

[trimacar]

Well, I understand the attraction of a crate engine, but the cost to put one in an old car doesn't stop at the $6800 mentioned.  Lots of modifications, different transmission, different radiator, drivetrain and front end conversion in most cases.

 

I really think, in the end, that the cost to restore or rod one of these "project' cars will come out about the same in the end.  You still have the same paint, chrome, upholstery costs.....

 

The other thing I would note is that, if one has built up a good network of friends in the hobby, there are ways to rebuild engines for less than the 30 grand that keeps kicking around as a cost.  I did a favor for a friend, he helped me with machine work on rebuilding an eight cylinder Pierce engine, and all told with parts and labor I had less than $5000 in a running, driving engine.  I agree with the 30K if you leave it with certain shops and walk away, but there are ways to do it differently.