Chrysler 323.5 Straight 8 Flathead

[Raffles]

I have a 1947 Chrysler New Yorker that is starting to show an alarming level of blow by. Rather than waiting until it completely packs it in and leaves me to scramble and miss a season or two of driving, I want to line up a rebuilt engine now. I have a line on a 1949 323.5 Straight 8 - vendor says that it is standard bore capable of rebuild. I believe that pistons etc. are available but what about a crankshaft -if it needs one?

 

Also, if anyone knows of a Chrysler straight 8 already re-built please let me know!

Edited November 7, 2018 by Raffles (see edit history)

[R Walling]

 Winter is coming, rebuild it in the snowy season and have it ready for the spring.

 A motor can be rebuilt in 2 weeks, tops, even if the crank needs grinding.

[Raffles]

Thanks Roger  - it's already 10 degrees below zero with snow on the ground here so we are going to have a log long winter. Another reason that I was looking for a new motor is that the one in my car is an industrial Chrysler with a serial number prefix of "IND" - probably came out of some heavy equipment or stationary application. I would like to get a factory engine.

[CarlLaFong]

What would cause you to think either engine needs a crankshaft?? Chances are, both are good. Have the crank in the donor engine checked and polished or reground as necessary. The crank in your current engine will probably swap over to the donor engine. That would require just a set of new bearings, providing the shaft is not excessively worn

[Raffles]

Not sure if the internal Specs for the "IND" straight 8 engine are the same as they are for the "C" straight 8 engine in terms of bore, stroke, etc. I know from past experience that the Chrysler/Dodge/Plymouth flat six manufactured in the US has a different bore,stroke and block length from the "IND" and Canadian Chrysler brands flat six. Therefore I am unsure if crank is interchangeable between "IND" and "C" straight 8.

Edited November 8, 2018 by Raffles (see edit history)

[Guest]

In the images an L-head engine, commonly called a flat head is drawn.  This is what is in your Chrysler.

The coloured  illustration is what is commonly called a flat engine.

The engines in the engine type drawing could and have been mounted flat for under floor installation but they are still not a flat engine.

[nzcarnerd]

5 minutes ago, Tinindian said:

In the images an L-head engine, commonly called a flat head is drawn.  This is what is in your Chrysler.

The coloured  illustration is what is commonly called a flat engine.

The engines in the engine type drawing could and have been mounted flat for under floor installation but they are still not a flat engine.

 

That 'flat' vs 'flat head' thing gets a lot of people. It would be easier to use the British - or non US - nomenclature, of side valve. I know that doesn't differentiate between T and L head but it is adequate for most applications.

 

Raffles in his comment refers to the differences between Canadian and US sixes - of course there is the  'long' and 'short' block thing to consider with those. US built both sizes , Canada built long ones only.

[CarlLaFong]

4 hours ago, nzcarnerd said:

  

 

of course there is the  'long' and 'short' block thing to consider with those. US built both sizes , Canada built long ones only.

I know about the long and short sixes. Were there long and short eights, as well?

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

12 hours ago, Roger Walling said:

 Winter is coming, rebuild it in the snowy season and have it ready for the spring.

 A motor can be rebuilt in 2 weeks, tops, even if the crank needs grinding.

 

I agree with Roger. Depending on miles on the engine and miles you intend to drive a ring ,valve ,and bearing overhaul probably is enough. Just a few days lazy work if no machine shop needed.

 

  Ben

[Rusty_OToole]

If you don't like flathead or sidevalve what about underhead cam?

 

I think if it was mine I would rebuild the engine that is in it, unless the rod is sticking thru the block. Why waste money on another engine when the one you have is known to be decent? As far as serial numbers go, when you have it out for the rebuild you could file off the old number and stamp anything you like.

[FLYER15015]

nzcarnerd,

Here in the colonies, we call your HO (coloured picture) a "boxer" engine.

So, we have the L-T-I-F-I engines pictured.

Think we ought to include TU for the old Dodge turbines ?

 

And what about the 3 cylinder 3 carb, 3 coil, TWO STROKE that was in my old SAAB ?

Added a quart of 30 weight for every 20 gallons, per the big red tag on the gas cap.

 

Hey BEN, what are you doing knocking about with the Chrysler guys ?

All the Buick problems been solved ?

 

Mike in Colorado

 

Edited November 9, 2018 by FLYER15015 (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I've never had any use for "miracle in a can" oil additives, but I have had remarkable success using a product called "Restore". I mentioned this on these forums a couple of years ago, and several guys echoed my praise for it. You mention blow-by, but how far can you get on a quart of oil? I'm talking about oil consumption, here, and not just visible blow-by? While I'm sure that there are plenty of exceptions, I think that most industrial engines live fairly easy lives because they usually aren't subject to the type of loads that cause a lot of crankshaft end play wear. Also, the tendency to run them at fixed RPMs probably has it's advantages. It's possible that a complete rebuild might not be necessary, try a couple cans of restore in the crankcase.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[JACK M]

Speaking of "miracle in a can" I was never a believer until I got into the boat business.

I was a Evinrude dealer and OMC sold 'engine tuner' in both spray cans and in bulk. (I suppose it would still be available)

You could dose a warm engine thru the carb till it barely ran, then let it sit over night and it was like getting a new engine.

Many boat engines never reach a full operating temperatures by design and they tend to carbon up.

I guess I cant explain why all the used car dealers in my area were my best customers for that stuff.

 

[nzcarnerd]

17 hours ago, FLYER15015 said:

nzcarnerd,

Here in the colonies, we call your HO (coloured picture) a "boxer" engine.

So, we have the L-T-I-F-I engines pictured.

Think we ought to include TU for the old Dodge turbines ?

 

And what about the 3 cylinder 3 carb, 3 coil, TWO STROKE that was in my old SAAB ?

Added a quart of 30 weight for every 20 gallons, per the big red tag on the gas cap.

 

Hey BEN, what are you doing knocking about with the Chrysler guys ?

All the Buick problems been solved ?

 

Mike in Colorado

 

 

Re the 'coloured picture' etc, all of that was posted by Tinindian. I just commented on it.

 

Some people, it seems mostly in the US I guess because this is a US forum, I am sure will continue to call the flat head engine a flat engine until corrected by us grumpy old buggers.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Actually, this Minnesota (USA) resident has never heard the term "flat" engine until relatively recently. I'm inclined to think that it's a matter of younger folks tending to abbreviate things in their speech.

Edited November 9, 2018 by Hudsy Wudsy (see edit history)

[Bloo]

This came up once before. Apparently in some parts of the US "flat 6" was common slang going back to at least the 60s if not further. It was a surprise to me. I (in the northwestern US) had never heard of it.

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

On 11/8/2018 at 9:23 PM, FLYER15015 said:

nzcarnerd,

Here in the colonies, we call your HO (coloured picture) a "boxer" engine.

So, we have the L-T-I-F-I engines pictured.

Think we ought to include TU for the old Dodge turbines ?

 

And what about the 3 cylinder 3 carb, 3 coil, TWO STROKE that was in my old SAAB ?

Added a quart of 30 weight for every 20 gallons, per the big red tag on the gas cap.

 

Hey BEN, what are you doing knocking about with the Chrysler guys ?

All the Buick problems been solved ?

 

Mike in Colorado

 

 

 Thinking the same thing about you!    George is good at present. Tomorrow?  

  Were you at the Nationals ?

 

  Ben

[R Walling]

 I bought a truck that had sat for about a year or so and when I started it it smoked like crazy.

 I put two bottles of "Motor Honey" in it, and ran it at about 1500 rpms for about 6 hours.

 It still was smoking so badly that I decided to return it to the dealer that I had bought it from.

 The next day I started it and one puff of smoke came out and then none.

 I kept the truck for 10 years and never had an oil problem since.

 Give it a try!

[Spinneyhill]

Have you done any diagnosis on the engine to discover where the problem might be? e.g. compression test wet and dry, leak down test, vacuum gauge test.

[Raffles]

Thanks to all for this very interesting and informative discussion. I am particularly interested in the comments about "miracle in a can" oil additives that actually work.

When I took the car to the shop a veteran mechanic looked it over and told me that the occasional billows of smoke emitted from the road pipe of the crank exhaust were not excessive and that he did not think that a compression test was warranted because the engine runs very smoothly. He suggested that the pistons and/or cylinders had probably become worn and somewhat tapered and that this and carbon build up caused by low speed travel had probably cause the rings to become clogged and not as effective as they should be -resulting in blow-by. 

 

The car never emits a blue cloud from the exhaust pipe when I drive it - it just emits a moderate billow of smoke from the crank exhaust road pipe when I come to a stop at a red light - it dissipates fairly quickly- but it is embarrassing and does leave a burning oil smell that lingers and is not pleasant for passengers or bystanders. however, when I start the car in the garage and let it warm up for a few minutes, it leaves a patch of dry, black soot on the garage pad. The soot is dry and thick, similar in thickness and texture to what you would get from a wood burning fire - it really is amazing that the car doesn't emit a blue cloud - considering the amount of soot that it produces. I asked the mechanic if this indicated that the fuel mixture was too rich - but when he inspected the tailpipe he observed that the soot had curled back at the circumference of the end of the pipe - like a very faint mushroom head - and this lead him to conclude that it was definitely oil that was producing the soot. As to the rate of oil consumption - it is unnoticeable in normal city driving - but the oil appears pitch black on the dipstick shortly after it is changed

 

Local guys here have recommended that I use a fuel additive called "Rislone" and then Drive the car at 60 MPH for a couple of hours to see if that solves my problems. Now that the roads are ice covered here and will be until April at least, I will probably have to wait till then to try this out.

 

 

[JACK M]

A bit off topic.

I had a motor home with a 460 in it and I used it to tow my race cars.

One day I was pulling a slight hill and it unloaded a HUGE cloud of blue smoke.

I quit after I crested the hill.

After the race that night around a campfire a guy asked if I had recently topped off the tranny. Yes I had.

He was a Ford mechanic.

It turns out that this is not uncommon on that Ford set up as there is a vent that is near the exhaust and when the fluid expands it will puke a bit of fluid and make smoke.

I have mentioned this story to several guys since as a lot of neighbors and other acquaintances think I know a lot about engines.

They think I am genius when I ask if they had just topped off the tranny fluid.

[Spinneyhill]

30 minutes ago, Raffles said:

crank exhaust road pipe

What is this? Do you mean the exhaust pipe at the rear?

 

Stop clutching at straws and do some diagnosis.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Raffles, when your mechanic suggested Rislone, I'm almost certain that he was referring to the Rislone oil additive and not the Rislone fuel additive. You can google "Rislone" to see their product line and decide for yourself, or check back with the man. When a person rebuilds an engine, they will employ some techniques to help "break-in" the piston rings. Rather than driving at a sustained speed only for a prolonged period of time, they will accelerate rapidly and then decelerate just as rapidly numerous times. Of course, you have to do this on a quiet road where you can do this safely. What occurs when you do this is that the piston rings get flexed from the alternate differences in combustion pressure and crankcase pressure. This flexing, combined with some miracle-in-a-can product, can loosen piston rings which have become stuck from age, non-use and or even just light use -- perhaps like an industrial engine might experience. Good luck and let us know your results.

[CarlLaFong]

1 hour ago, Spinneyhill said:

What is this? Do you mean the exhaust pipe at the rear?

 

Stop clutching at straws and do some diagnosis.

I sure he's talking about the road draft tube

[Hudsy Wudsy]

"Road draft tube"  probably has different names in different locales. Here in the frozen north it's usually called the crankcase vent, or crankcase vent tube.

[R Walling]

 Try connecting the road draft tube to the air cleaner intake.

 It would act somewhat like a pvc  valve.

 It may eliminate the smell from the engine compartment.

 

 I installed a pvc on my 55 Chrysler in place of the road draft tube and I have no such smell.

 I have seen an engine that has such a set up and was sucking so much vapor from the crankcase that if you disconnected it  it would not idle.

Edited November 12, 2018 by Roger Walling (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

I just want to add something more to my thoughts about the desirability of flexing the piston rings. While I mentioned that flexing the rings can help free them from sticking to the pistons in an older engine, I should have stated that the reason those steps are taken with a new engine is that it helps to seat the new rings against the cylinder wall and prevent cylinder wall glazing.

[Raffles]

Just had a fellow on another forum suggest installing a PCV valve - he has installed one on his flathead where the crank exhaust was. He very kindly provided a photo of his rig. Anyone else ever done this to their old engine?

[Hudsy Wudsy]

A PCV valve is a good way to cope with the problem. Finding a way to diminish the problem, first, would be a better way, however.

[Rusty_OToole]

Your description of sooty exhaust suggests it is running way too rich. Could just be the choke out of adjustment, if it only happens when starting from cold. Your engine has a Sisson choke which needs to be adjusted a particular way. Also they wear out over the years, I don't know if replacements are available but NOS ones show up on Ebay from time to time.

 

Could also be time for a tuneup and carb adjustment or carb rebuild. I would start with a compression test, and checking the oil pressure for an idea of what kind of shape the engine is in. If you have 35 to 45 PSI oil pressure @ 30 MPH and decent compression you should be able to tune it up to start and  run as well as a modern fuel injection car. I have done this on flathead Chrysler sixes and it is amazing how nice they run if everything is right.

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Yes, Rusty is right. I meant to get back to the soot issue.

[JACK M]

I have a couple of hot rods with first gen Hemis in them.

One parts supplier sells a kit that puts a PCV valve in place of the draft tube.

I did use one of those on one car and on the other I made a small tin box under the valley cover as its an aftermarket cover and doesn't accommodate a draft tube, then drilled a hole to accept a grommet for a PCV. (basically the same thing as the afore mentioned kit)

Vacuum source right out of the intake.

I have had absolutely zero problems with these.

The pic is the kit application however you cant see it in the pic. (all it is is a grommet that fits the original road draft tube hole) You can see the vacuum source though.

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by JACK M (see edit history)

[Bloo]

One thing that never gets mentioned in threads like this is that the PCV vapors need to mix properly with the fuel/air coming out of the idle jets. Just connecting to a random manifold tap screws the fuel distribution all up and requires you to run the idle way too rich, with the attendant plug fouling, driveability issues, etc.

 

Most modern carbs have a PCV port, and taking a close look at one will provide a good example of what to do if you need to make a plate to go under a carb that doesn't have a port. Ford used a separate plate under the carb in the late 60s and early 70s. Those are another good thing to look at to see what to do. Hint: usually the pcv dumps right under the idle jet or jets. Notice also that on the Ford PCV plates (and almost every other example of a pcv port) there is a big open cavity, and the only restriction is the last 1/8" or so right before it dumps in the throttle bore. If you ignore this detail the PCV will plug constantly.

 

Doing PCV as a band-aid for blowby is likely to be disappointing. There is an absolute limit to how much air/vapor you can move before the carburetor cannot work properly anymore. There is never enough flow. PCV is, after all, a huge vacuum leak. No PCV system, even on a healthy engine, can move enough air to work 100% of the time. There are times that vapor will blow backwards out the breather cap, or breather filter, or whatever the system uses to let clean air into the engine.

 

You might hit the limit for air movement even a little earlier by adding PCV to a carb that was not designed for it. The extra air coming through the PCV system means the throttle plate will be more closed than it was originally at the same idle speed. This means that the transfer ports in the idle system are going to be in the wrong place in the throttle bore relative to the throttle plates. The ported vacuum port for the distributor (if equipped) will also be wrong. Both will be late due to the more closed throttle. On some cars you won't notice a difference, on others it might be a big deal. You'll just have to try it and see.

 

Pick a PCV valve for an engine about the same displacement or a little smaller. For a stock, smooth idling engine start with a valve originally specified for smooth idling engine that had a lot of vacuum at idle. At 323.5ci, I would probably start with a valve for a Chrysler 318, and go to something smaller if it is too much flow for the carburetor to still work correctly.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2018 by Bloo (see edit history)

[Hudsy Wudsy]

Bloo, that's all excellent info.

[c49er]

Excellent advice X 2!

I'd also  say fix the engine with excessive blow by... don't band aid it. 

[keithb7]

Speaking about your oil quickly turning black, the soot patch on your gargae floor and the soot built up in your tail pipe does sound bad. Is soot a result from excessive oil burning?

 

My understanding is soot is extremely abrasive. It is suspended in the oil and pumped through all oil galleries and thru all bearings. It finely polishes tight clearances, enlarging them. Oil pump gears, housings, and bearings. Have you noticed a drop, or measured the engine oil pressure? I believe soot can plug up oil filters too. Further contributing to oil pressure reduction. How quickly the filter plugs can depend on the oil filter media efficiency. 

 

Does burning engine oil cause carbon build up on the upper piston ring gland too. Forcing the ring outward if it builds up behind the ring? Leading to broken top rings? Above the top ring, the carbon build up on the piston can cause scuffing on the cylinder wall.  Leading to further oil burning.  It seems when oil is buring, carbon and soot are destroying an engine from the inside out. 

 

Do these miracle oil additives help remove carbon build up? Fill micro scores in the cylinder walls? Prevent oil burn and also reducing soot?

[Rusty_OToole]

Soot is usually unburned fuel. Feel the black gook in the end of the tailpipe. If it is greasy and oily you are burning oil. If it is dry and sooty you are not burning the gas completely. Could be choke on too much, running too rich, engine misfiring and not burning the gas but, most likely choke out of whack.

 

If the tailpipe is dry with a gray or tan deposit that's perfect.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

14 hours ago, keithb7 said:

My understanding is soot is extremely abrasive

This is a particular problem with turbocharged diesel engines on acceleration. The turbo charger does not spool up fast enough to supply enough air, briefly, during acceleration. Unburned fuel (carbon) finds it way to the sump. Oil companies have developed additives for oil to handle the additional soot and reduce the abrasiveness, since about CI-4 or CJ-4. e.g. https://www.lubrizoladditives360.com/soot-engine-oil-affects-wear/

 

Another reason to use CI-4 oil!