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How buttercup got her groove back


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24 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

Eventhough they are brand new?

Might work...might not.  It stinks to buy a gasket set for $100+ just for one head gasket.

Did you use the low or high compression gasket?  Let me know...may have some extras.

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6 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Might work...might not.  It stinks to buy a gasket set for $100+ just for one head gasket.

Did you use the low or high compression gasket?  Let me know...may have some extras.

I'm not entirely sure.  Its what centerville sent for my car and they are the "fiber" type not the plain metal...  When I get it out I'll look up the part #.

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7 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

I'm not entirely sure.  Its what centerville sent for my car and they are the "fiber" type not the plain metal...  When I get it out I'll look up the part #.

Fiber type. I purchased from Centerville as well. If I'm not mistaken it was Felpro.  

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1 minute ago, NC-car-guy said:

they are the "fiber" type not the plain metal

That would be the low compression variety and I know I have some (but try to get the valve moving without removing the head).

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14 minutes ago, Smartin said:

Matt will tell you Felpro is junk and they seep.

Maybe in some applications.  Been using Felpro since the 1960's in 264/322 without issue. (advise and recommendations from  sellers will point you to what they are selling)

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37 minutes ago, old-tank said:

Maybe in some applications.  Been using Felpro since the 1960's in 264/322 without issue. (advise and recommendations from  sellers will point you to what they are selling)

I'm quite certain I used Felpro.  Working fine in the 264. 

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You want the bad news or the badder(I know) news?  So I figured the hammer trick would not work as I'd witnessed the valve going up and down, just not returning fully. But I tried anyhow and sure enough the valve popped up, but with a rattle.  I shined my light down the intake port and could see the valve guide dropped down and clean metal. So I pulled the head.  Not sure how I'll ever get the da*n thing back on with the steering box there but...

So I can't find my valve spring compressor but there is clearly a broken piece of the valve guide stuck behind the valve. 😳  worst part? I can see it DID contact the piston.  😥Should I just pull the engine at this point? Trying to resist the urge to sell at a loss and be done.

1566544007_20200204_2056582.thumb.jpg.ad4ed71ed131ed79147e6f3ca37f6a70.jpg2026242885_20200204_2057332.thumb.jpg.9e855069a1c80f7ebdf37aed8ffc935d.jpg

 

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1 minute ago, avgwarhawk said:

Pull the head. Replace the guide and valve. Or source a good replacement head.  Piston looks ok. 

You think so?  Those two contact points don't seem bad?

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Your piston looks exactly like mine.  I could tell that at one time my engine had a sticking valve and hit the piston quite a bit, bending the rod in the process.  Anyhow, someone repaired both heads, but left the piston as is.  I ran my engine quite a few times and the piston seemed to do fine.  I think yours will too.  Just need to get those broken pieces out and I think you will be okay.

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You can tell it hit there, so of course there's always a chance that its cracked or screwed up, but IMHO 99 percent chance that is ok. I wouldn't worry about it at all. I have seen pistons with tops that looked like they had been through a rock crusher that survived. Yours doesn't even look damaged.

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11 hours ago, NC-car-guy said:

You want the bad news or the badder(I know) news?  So I figured the hammer trick would not work as I'd witnessed the valve going up and down, just not returning fully. But I tried anyhow and sure enough the valve popped up, but with a rattle.  I shined my light down the intake port and could see the valve guide dropped down and clean metal. So I pulled the head.  Not sure how I'll ever get the da*n thing back on with the steering box there but...

So I can't find my valve spring compressor but there is clearly a broken piece of the valve guide stuck behind the valve. 😳  worst part? I can see it DID contact the piston.  😥Should I just pull the engine at this point? Trying to resist the urge to sell at a loss and be done.

1566544007_20200204_2056582.thumb.jpg.ad4ed71ed131ed79147e6f3ca37f6a70.jpg2026242885_20200204_2057332.thumb.jpg.9e855069a1c80f7ebdf37aed8ffc935d.jpg

 

 

 

You inquired about new gasket once the head is pulled.  As you can see the nice new one that was installed is now a nice used one ready for replacement.  Stuff is like glue!   

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5 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

Looks like it survive the carnage quite well. 

 

I have ten 322 heads. Hopefully I can find one good intake valve and guide out of all that!  56 heads are different correct?  Should be fun getting a torque wrench in next to the power steering gearbox.

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4 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

I have ten 322 heads. Hopefully I can find one good intake valve and guide out of all that!  56 heads are different correct?  Should be fun getting a torque wrench in next to the power steering gearbox.

 

 

I'm not sure when the heads and years each were different.   I had similar issue with torquing the head while in the car.   The only answer was purchasing a smaller torque wrench.  

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I changed a drivers side head on mine a few years ago.  I got it off with lots of grunting and farting (those heads are alot heavier than 40 years ago).   I used an engine hoist to set it in place without removing the hood. Used the same hoist to R&R the passenger side head later.

 

34 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

The only answer was purchasing a smaller torque wrench.  

 Nah, just use a universal impact socket...cheaper than a torque wrench, especially if you borrow one.:P

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1 minute ago, old-tank said:

I changed a drivers side head on mine a few years ago.  I got it off with lots of grunting and farting (those heads are alot heavier than 40 years ago).   I used an engine hoist to set it in place without removing the hood. Used the same hoist to R&R the passenger side head later.

 

 Nah, just use a universal impact socket...cheaper than a torque wrench, especially if you borrow one.:P

 

I pulled both heads while the motor was still installed. Hood in place.   Heavy is putting it lightly!!!   I managed.  I opted for a shorter torque wench so I could really get in there with just a socket and no extensions.  Plus I wanted one for my toolbox  so there is that!  A new tool in the box is always a nice thing.  Now that I have it I use it quite a bit over the longer torque wrench I have.  Method to the madness!   

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14 minutes ago, old-tank said:

 

 Nah, just use a universal impact socket...cheaper than a torque wrench, especially if you borrow one.:P

I have these.  And a standard torque wrench.  I always thought adding extensions and universals would throw off the amount of torque actually getting to the bolt....  Guess you'll tell me that its not significant enough and stop worrying? 😆😆

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1 minute ago, NC-car-guy said:

Guess you'll tell me that its not significant enough and stop worrying?

Yes.

Long ago we just used a breakover bar in conjunction with a "calibrated elbow" and a haphazard pattern with no issues.  Do it right if possible and don't worry if you deviate!

Checked a piston and there is lots of meat in that area.

New valve guides are cheap and not worn (RockAuto), but you will have to ream to get the stem clearance (have a machine shop do this!).  Maybe a new intake valve too since some or all of those heads may have had valve jobs done, the stems will be too short for your engine.

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Should be fun. The two machine shops are so uppity around here. There's a third one but they stopped all repair work and only build race engines! We'll see if they'll do one valve.

 

Edit: there is a guy in Germany that's been buying parts from me. He always has me drop them at this machine shop in Raleigh.  Looks like it's been there for 100years. No nonsense older guys, if you come at lunch you better bring food and tea kind of place. I just called and they said sure thing!

Edited by NC-car-guy (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, NC-car-guy said:

Should be fun. The two machine shops are so uppity around here. There's a third one but they stopped all repair work and only build race engines! We'll see if they'll do one valve.

 

Edit: there is a guy in Germany that's been buying parts from me. He always has me drop them at this machine shop in Raleigh.  Looks like it's been there for 100years. No nonsense older guys, if you come at lunch you better bring food and tea kind of place. I just called and they said sure thing!

 

That my friend is a beautiful thing!   

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2 hours ago, NC-car-guy said:

I always thought adding extensions and universals would throw off the amount of torque actually getting to the bolt....

It will, but if the torque value is a range, just use the upper end of the range.  Otherwise, just use some judgment and add a small amount at the wrench setting depending on what you are adding.

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Apparently whoever provides valves for the East Coast Parts suppliers is now on indefinite backorder.  I called the West Coast supplier and got my lecture about needing to replace all my exhaust valves, which I refuse to do. And will now wait for my parts to arrive.

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49 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

Apparently whoever provides valves for the East Coast Parts suppliers is now on indefinite backorder.  I called the West Coast supplier and got my lecture about needing to replace all my exhaust valves, which I refuse to do. And will now wait for my parts to arrive.

 

I thought you had a spare head or two laying around to salvage a valve from?

 

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14 minutes ago, JohnD1956 said:

 

I thought you had a spare head or two laying around to salvage a valve from?

 

Since this engine is so low mileage and i have no idea the mileage on the other engines, it seemed better to get a new valve and guide.

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5 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

Head is done.  $110 yikes! He said there was some pitting on the seat so he touched it up... Brings this close to a $200 mistake, not counting my labor. 😥

 

Nobody likes pitting on their seat.    Why to you chalk this up as a mistake?   Valves in these nailheads do freeze up in their guides.   Look at the bright side, at least the piston appears good to go, no scratches in the bore walls from a valve that could have cracked off and bounced round in there.    For good measure, assure the other head has all moving valves when cranking.     

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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2 minutes ago, avgwarhawk said:

 

Nobody likes pitting on their seat.    Why to you chalk this up as a mistake?   Valves in these nailheads do freeze up in their guides.   Look at the bright side, at least the piston appears good to go, no scratches in the bore walls from a valve that could have cracked off and bounced round in there.    For good measure, assure the other head has all moving valves when cranking.     

I should've checked all this when I did the head gaskets and I should've drained all the old fuel before adding more and starting it.

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27 minutes ago, NC-car-guy said:

I should've checked all this when I did the head gaskets and I should've drained all the old fuel before adding more and starting it.

 

 

The excitement of hearing it run leads to missing some things to do before you start it.  Man....I have been there and done that!   You are not alone.   I recall installing my fresh heads on the 264.   This after honing and new rings.   I decided to hand turn the crank to assure the was nothing in the valve train was hitting the top of the pistons.  I got about a 1/4 turn before it jammed.  And spun the crank back 1/4 turn. It jammed again.  I scratching my head and cussed a bit.   I did not want to remove heads or find the push rods I reinstalled are now to long jamming up the works.  I get ready to do just that but decide to crank the crank by hand one more time.  When I do...I hear a clank in the rear.   What the....   I had left the 3 speed in gear.  Once the manual was out of gear the engine spun without issue.  So yeah, my excitement to get it running caused me to miss that completely.              

 

Just chalk it up to a learning curve and something to share when another is working on a 322. 

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

Head is back on. Intake and exhaust are on. Need to do an oil change as I spilled coolant and gasoline while working on this. If this car doesn't work out it's reverse issue by driving it around it's forward gears I will gladly exercise all of its forward gears straight into the scrap yard, regardless of my monetary loss.  I am not built for fixing these cars.  They are huge pains in the ass and I will not own another.

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