Fisher Body

[trini]

I have a 1928 Dodge Brothers Senior. How can I know who made the body ? Is it made by Dodge brothers ? Fisher ? There are fewer wood pieces as compared to G.M. products of the same period. According to Dodge Brochure the engine (7 mains) crank has no counter weight yet it  smooth. It is a flat 6. Who made it ?    

[nzcarnerd]

The body may be by Budd.

 

http://www.coachbuilt.com/bui/b/budd/budd.htm

 

Btw your engine is not a flat six (that term is reserved for horizontally opposed sixes, as used by Porsche), it is a side valve six, sometimes known as an L-head or flat head six.

[trini]

Thank you for the correction. But I am still puzzled by the idle and running smoothness of the engine. Who made it ? There were 2 companies in the U.S. who made side valve  engines used by many companies , including   industrial  and  military and marine use. Cadillac, Packard, Duesenberg ,Pontiac, Studebakers all had side valve engines. I think Ford developed it's own.   Did Dodge brothers developed their own ?

[61polara]

Dodge built their own engines.  Prior to bringing out the Dodge Brothers car, they were an engine supplier to Ford for the Model T.

[nearchoclatetown]

I believe you will find the Senior engine was made by Lycoming. 

[trini]

After reading coachbuilt.com I have an idea who built the 28 Dodge Senior.

[trini]

Thank you guys for the information.

[CarlLaFong]

15 hours ago, trini said:

 There were 2 companies in the U.S. who made side valve  engines used by many companies , including   industrial  and  military and marine use. Cadillac, Packard, Duesenberg ,Pontiac, Studebakers all had side valve engines. I think Ford developed it's own.   Did Dodge brothers developed their own ?

There were a lot more than 2 companies making side valve engines. Not a real expert, but Duesenbergs never used a flathead engine

Edited October 27, 2018 by CarlLaFong (see edit history)

[nzcarnerd]

3 hours ago, CarlLaFong said:

There were a lot more than 2 companies making side valve engines. Not a real expert, but Duesenbergs never used a flathead engine

 

Agreed, there were many proprietary engine makers in the US back in the day. 

 

The great majority of American car engines pre WW2 were side valve, the main exceptions among large scale manufacturers would be Chevrolet, Buick and Nash. 

[Guest]

Both Buick (T-head) and Nash (single six) built flat head engines.

[nzcarnerd]

1 hour ago, Tinindian said:

Both Buick (T-head) and Nash (single six) built flat head engines.

 

I knew that but the vast majority of their products had overhead valves. Maybe less so with Nash but certainly Buick and Chev.

 

If you added up the total production of side valve engines vs overhead engines in the pre WW2 era I think that overhead would be very much in the  minority - maybe less than 25%. Maybe even only 10% if you take into account all of the Ford, Chrysler and Studebaker products, and add in most of the independents who never had ohv.

 

I was just highlighting that most US engines were side valve.

 

I think if anyone was to try to put together a list of engine makers there would always be another one they have not listed - there were that many.

[Guest]

I believe among the larger, more well known manufacturers that Chevrolet was the only one to only have OHV engines.  Many people, even some  Buick owners/enthusiasts do not know that they made a flat-head albeit a t-head engine. There is much misinformation out there, usually because a person states something without saying I think or I believe.

That is one of our quirks as human beings.  Recording secretaries often say a good time was had by all or everyone enjoyed the picnic/gathering/part or whatever.  I can assure you that someone or several in each case did not, unless a motion was made and a vote taken recording for, against and abstentions.  I have served on many committees and as President of Clubs and it was always an up hill battle to have the real facts recorded, not what someone thought happened.

The only time "all" is appropiate unless it has been voted on and is voted unanamiously is "we are all humans and should all be treated equal".

[Bloo]

Yes, Dodge Brothers designed and made their own engines. If that particular model has Lycoming in it, it is an outlier.

 

The number of different flathead designs out there is staggering.

[Spinneyhill]

Does the Senior 6 have a Lycoming engine? I doubt it and would not believe it without some documentation.

 

In Chiltons Interchange 1927-33, the Auburns were shown as Lycoming engine with the engine model given. The Senior 6 had no such annotation.

 

On https://www.allpar.com/mopar/list.html

 the engine is shown thus

The Dodge Brothers six cylinder engines :

Size	Bore	Stroke	CID	Use
208	3.375	3.875	208.0	1928-1930  Dodge Brothers Victory Six/Standard Six/DA Six
224	3.250	4.500	224.0	1927  Dodge Brothers Senior Six
242	3.375	4.500	241.5	1928-1930  Dodge Brothers Senior Six / DB Senior Six

 

There is no indication that it is other than a Dodge Brothers engine.

 

 

 

[trini]

Hi  Spinneyhill, You are my idol. After raising the  question " Did D.B. made there own engines ?" Today I came across some old leaflets concerning same. You are on the ball. 1928  /29 SENIOR ENGINEIS LISTED AS OWN.....BORE  3 3/8   STROKE   4 1/2. 

 

1930 dodge 8 is listed as "own"  1925/26/27/28/29 all listed as "own"   1930 DD6 as own use a Carter RTO8  1 1/8 Carb  1930 Dodge 8 2 and 7/8 bore x4 1/4 stroke and use a Stromberg D3 carburetor.  Oddly, though, the 28 senior list the carburetor as UX3. I know that is incorrect from experience. The mounting bolt center on my Senior 6 is too narrow. A ux3 cost me 500 dollars total and it would not fit. Some kind member on this forum gave me a UX2 "garden shed find" for parts .It cost me about 1200 dollars to get new cast from Australia. After transferring the parts onto the new casting and installing I could not hook up the pedal linkage. So I switched to a Carter B. B 1. The reason I am saying this is not all the information concerning the carburetor is correct  I read the attachment on bud buddy.com. That is fantastic reading. Thank you guys all.

[carbking]

According to my information, there were early production and late production carburetors for the 1928 Senior Six.

 

The early production used a Stromberg type TX-2 carb (Dodge # AB-200-328) same as the 1928 Victory Six

The late production used a Stromberg type UX-3 carb (Dodge # AB-202-819)

 

The number in the Stromberg type is the S.A.E. flange size; thus the TX-2 is a size 2 (center to center 2 11/16 inch) and the UX-3 is as size 3 (center to center 2 15/16 inch).

 

The "X" in the Stromberg type means "cross flange"; thus drawing a straight line between the two mounting holes would run fender to fender on either the TX-2 or UX-3.

 

Trini - my guess would be that your Senior Six is an early production, thus originally equipped with the Stromberg type TX-2 carburetor. I do not have intake manifold information, but again guessing that the early production and late production used different intake manifolds, as the carburetor flange mounting was different. The 1929 Senior Six is shown as using the exact same carburetor as the late 1928. Perhaps you could find an owner with a 1929 manifold to compare.

 

Jon.

Edited October 28, 2018 by carbking (see edit history)

[carbking]

A bit more information on the Stromberg UX-2:

 

I have 70 entries in my carburetor database. Of these, only two are for Dodge (1928 Standard and Victory sixes), and the 1928 model 130 export.

 

The carb was original equipment on engines from 147 CID to 354 CID. Thus, internal venturii sizes varied, but external throttle configurations also varied.

 

This, unfortunately, is a "bug" that bites many enthusiasts in the area of carburetor acquisition. A parts book or an owners manual or a well-meaning internet forum blog states a certain model carburetor was used on a certain model car. And it may have been, but not ALL versions of that carburetor would work, or even fit, the vehicle in question.

 

Often, original documentation exists: a picture in an original owners manual, illustrated original parts manuals, or original carburetor parts sheets.

 

Aftermarket documentation (Motors, Chiltons, Hollanders, Dykes, Radco, etc.) can be useful, but it should be a starting point for more research.

 

Jon.

[trini]

I can only guess what type of manifold came with the engine. All know it looks original, not replaced at any point in time. The air cleaner is a clue to the UX2 which was most likely on it. Most of those early white metal carburetors had metal fatigue problems. I take a shot in the dark here, the owner at the time attempted to find a substitute. The carburetor that came with the car when I bought it was an older one made of brass with plunger on the float bowl with few moving parts.   Owners manual does not always translate into what is actually on the car. Today we get updates from the manufacturers.. Not in those days

Thank you CARB KING.. 

[carbking]

Trini - a few observations:

 

(1) Obviously, you have spent quite a bit of money prior to acquiring the BB-1. Perhaps you could recoup some of that investment. If you were to partially disassemble the UX-2 that you have to determine venturi size, and then good pictures of the exterior, it is possible that you could find someone that could use it. You are certainly not the only one with UX-2 issues.

 

(2) Stromberg, like many other companies, went through the alphabet. The earliest Strombergs were type A. And while the type U came after the type T; physically, the types T and U are not overly similar (other than both being updraft). However, the type T was VERY similar to the type O, which it replaced; and for many years we have suggested to owners with vehicles originally equipped with the Stromberg type T, to replace with the BRASS type O of similar size and configuration. You may have found an OX-2 on the engine, which if correct internally, is an excellent replacement for the zinc alloy type T.

 

(3) Actually, some companies DID provide updates in the late 1920's. I know Oakland/Pontiac started sending service letters as early as 1923. Carter, Stromberg, and Zenith carburetor companies ALL provided updates at least as early as the mid-20's. The problem today is that very few of these bulletins survive. Over the past 50 plus years, I probably have accumulated 99 percent of the updates from Oakland/Pontiac, Carter, Stromberg, and Zenith. And while it is difficult for me to ever compliment Marvel Carburetor Company , Marvel did a wonderful job of providing updates. I have a very large binder full of them.

 

Jon.

[trini]

The carburetor on the car when I got it is all brass. The stamping on it is UL6. No name.   In the  UX 2 and UX3 the butterfly lever moves the wrong way. If it worked before, when new  I could not get it to work because the linkage to attach the butterfly was missing . Interestingly no body knew what the linkage look like in the "X" carburetor. The UL6 is simple, link is straight in line with the block and so is the B B 1. Rand Broadstreet was very helpful there. The UX2 and UX3 has been sent to Mr. Ron Lawson in Australia. If any one needs these carburetors he  may contact him through this forum. The problem with the B B 1 is the air screw does not work no matter how much I turn it in or out. I have to idle it down by adjusting the float bowl. It does not bother me and I am not going to bother it for now.

[Spinneyhill]

On 10/27/2018 at 1:19 PM, trini said:

But I am still puzzled by the idle and running smoothness of the engine. Who made it ?

This paragraph from https://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/dodge-brothers.html says it was designed by Dodge Brothers but built by Continental Motors! Well, we live and learn. It is still a Dodge Brothers engine though. Anyone know of any corroboration of this?

 

[nzcarnerd]

2 hours ago, Spinneyhill said:

This paragraph from https://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/dodge-brothers.html says it was designed by Dodge Brothers but built by Continental Motors! Well, we live and learn. It is still a Dodge Brothers engine though. Anyone know of any corroboration of this?

 

 

I guess the whole business of who built whose engines is open to debate. I think it depends on whether the car maker has the facilities to make block and head castings. I read somewhere that GM didn't have that until the mid 1920s. There early four cylinder Chevrolet engines were made by several different foundries. The early Pontiac sixes were made by Ferro, whether it was just the castings or the machining as well - who knows.. Whether that applied to all of the split head engines I don't know. Northway was part of GM and supplied many of its engines - even the V8 Cadillac I believe. To what extent the various engines were made by the foundries or where the machine shops were is probably big can of worms.

[Rusty_OToole]

On the smoothness of six cylinder engines. A straight six has the smallest number of cylinders giving perfect primary and secondary balance, and overlapping power impulses. This makes it inherently smooth. The reason straight sixes were so popular for so long, even among luxury car makers like Rolls Royce, Bentley, Jaguar, BMW and Mercedes Benz.

 

The crankshaft throws are made so each is offset 120 degrees, or 1/3 of a revolution from the next, with the center 2 paired together. In other words pistons #1 and #6 rise and fall together. Likewise #2 and #5, #3 and #4. So as the engine turns whatever one cylinder is doing, there is another doing the opposite.

 

If all parts are in balance, i.e. all pistons weight exactly the same, all connecting rods, and the crankshaft itself is in balance the engine will run very smoothly. This is why your Dodge engine is smooth.

 

On newer engines they added counterweights to make the engine even smoother, this became necessary as speeds went up. This was more a matter of controlling flexing of the crankshaft than anything.

Edited October 29, 2018 by Rusty_OToole (see edit history)

[Spinneyhill]

1 hour ago, nzcarnerd said:

I guess the whole business of who built whose engines is open to debate

Yes. But where did the Allpar author (David Zatz) get that information from?

 

It just seems a bit odd that Dodge Brothers, who started out as a foundry company moving into cars, might have had someone else building engines for them.

[trini]

Rusty-Toole, you are so right. 2 pistons always move together. The generator is  driven by the timing chain. Made by North East. The exhaust  outlet points behind and downwards towards the fire wall. In the 1929 6 cylinder, the exhaust outlet faces the radiator and the pipe makes a large "u turn" and back under the carburetor. I also heard the exhaust pipe, running  so close to the carburetor, caused  lots of vapor lock.The generator (delco) is moved to the other side and both the generator and water pump turns by adjustable belt by the engine pulley. The 1928 Senior water pump belt is fixed. No adjustment. Seems like that is a unique design, stands all by itself.

[trini]

Dodge Brothers were famous machinist, it is said. When they got into building cars they possibly could not handle all the work thereby farming some out. That is the only reason I can think of. I am really surprised how advanced their technology was for the time frame . While  other manufacturers sported torque tubes Dodge was sporting open driveshaft with flanges on the 1928 models.  The machined tolerances  is  close, yet fit so easily. The diff is as large as that of a 5 ton truck. Compare that to a 28 Chev. Hydraulic brakes, when most manufacturers were still using rods years later. 

 

I thank all of you for your contributions. It make life interesting.

[nzcarnerd]

On ‎10‎/‎29‎/‎2018 at 10:20 PM, Spinneyhill said:

Yes. But where did the Allpar author (David Zatz) get that information from?

 

It just seems a bit odd that Dodge Brothers, who started out as a foundry company moving into cars, might have had someone else building engines for them.

 

Maybe they didn't have the capacity to do more than so many different types?

 

Or maybe Continental had spare capacity and came to Dodge with a proposal to build an engine for them?

[Spinneyhill]

Here is a bit more about it (see post #12):

 

Edited October 31, 2018 by Spinneyhill (see edit history)