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Stalling at 90 Degrees (Cent) - then Cranks but won't Start until cooled to 83 Degrees


scottalan925

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1990 Reatta has begun stalling when it reaches normal operating temperature (about 85-90 degrees centigrade) - - resulting in 'Crank but No Start' (NO ERROR CODES SET) until cooled to around 80 to 83 degrees. This began after engine mounts broke & were replaced.  Additionally, I have replaced the CAM sensor, Cam Sensor Interrupter Magnet, Throttle Position Sensor, Mass Air Flow body & Sensor, New Plugs & wires, new Oxygen Sensor, installed working Delco Ignition Module & Coils... and repaired some bared wires in the harness (near connector 126).  **  One anomaly noted = EMC on-board digital data readout (Ed11) reports the  RPM at "20" rpm even although only have the Key On - - but engine OFF.  (and the tachometer appears to be accurate when the engine IS running.) Has anyone else encountered either of these mysterious issues (and if so, anyone found a solution)? Thanks for your consideration & the assistance you might provide!  (Love my Reattas - - but this is driving me nuts!!) 

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1 hour ago, Ronnie said:

Have you replaced the crankshaft position sensor? It can cause stalling after the engine gets hot and restart after the engine cools down.

 

Had a very similar experience, and agree with Ronnie. Crank Sensor is the likely cause.

 

You may note there is residual oil pressure indicated with key on and engine off also. Seems normal to me.

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Thanks, Guys.  I suppose the Crank sensor replacement is next then, Ronnie.. although new info is to be considered.  ( And I'll preface it by admitting that I've been hoping I wouldn't have to R & R the Crank Sensor due to my lack of precision tools & experience).  Previously, I DID rewire (splice in a new) crank position sensor connector when I noticed the wires to the connecter were exposed and perhaps shorting-out due to the plastic coating having deteriorated... and have considered examining the rest of the harness more carefully to see if my 'butt-end' splices are inadequate or whether there's an 'open' that shows up when the engine heats up to expand the plastic coating on the wires... because I'm puzzled as to any other way the 18x signal might be lost intermittently when hot...  I'm influenced in my logic by reading that a bad crank sensor will result in a  'no-start' condition regardless of which (i.e., 18x or 3x) signal is lost.  

 

Last evening when a Trouble Code 22 showed up, I discovered that one of the spliced wires connecting TPS had become disconnected (leading me to wonder if the poor connection preceding that disconnect led to the intermittent stall & no-start condition.)  I reconnected it and this morning I was able to drive without stalling and then restarted the vehicle at an Ed04 temperature reading of 97 celsius degrees, which adds to my puzzlement.  Will be driving another 12 miles or so in 3 hours or so and find out whether a warmer ambient temperature might affect things.

 

All that being said, do either of you have an opinion as to whether it's more likely to be a bad wire someplace, or the Crank sensor itself? 

 Scott

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Your first step is to determine for sure if the reason the engine is stalling is a fuel problem or an ignition problem. The way to do that is check for spark at the plugs as soon as the engine stalls and won't start - right there on the side of the road. Carry the tools you need to do that in the car.

If the plugs aren't getting fire you know the problem is the ignition system. The most likely thing that will cause the engine to stall when hot and then restart after it has time to cool down is the Ignition control module. Are you certain it is good? Next in line would be the crank sensor. It's possible a wire splice is the problem but I've never found that a splice is effected by heat.

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Just another thought. Does the car try to start at all misfire or seem like it wants to start? I had an oxygen sensor that would stall the car when it went into closed loop. I do not remember if it would re-start or not. But this would be an easy test. Just unplug OX sensor and see if it stays running. It will use computer defaults to run.

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Well, I sure appreciate the feedback and advice!   Here's the report of today's experiences thus far...

 

Oddly enough, the vehicle ran pretty well today (no stalls - - and restarting at temperatures above 87 centigrade.)  But just minutes ago (after 30 miles of good driving),  I stopped for coffee and experienced crank but no start when the Ed04 reading was only 83 - - and just when I put the spark tester on the Ignition Module to test for spark, it started right up with no appreciable change in temperature!  (And yes, Ronnie, I'm pretty sure the Ignition Module is good:  I've installed a total of 3 of them while trying to resolve the issues and I've finally settled on an AC Delco unit... but I continue to monitor it by checking spark at those coils.  Probably ought to learn what the resistance should be between the coil posts, but I haven't done so yet - - although I reckon that won't tell me when I have a bad module.)  But what's the likelihood that all 3 of those ignition modules would give the same problem?

 

The Fuel Integration and Block Learning (Ed19 & Ed20) are indicative of a lean condition (and the Ed20 reading is typically 150 - - which I've read may indicate a problem with a ground circuit, all of which have been cleaned and tightened... 

 

Perhaps it's also significant that earlier in the day I had an Ed17 count of "9999" - - and then later something around "2400."  Subsequently, those readings returned to '0' however. 

I intend to check the injectors individually with a test light this evening to see if they're all receiving the ground signal to fire... 

 

* Oh BTW, Regarding an earlier note: I discovered that the 20 RPM reading is normal with Key On/Engine Off, since the digital range begins at 20 according to the Service Manual.

Edited by scottalan925
Responding to Ronnie's remark re Ignition Module (see edit history)
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1 hour ago, scottalan925 said:

and just when I put the spark tester on the Ignition Module to test for spark, it started right up with no appreciable change in temperature!

 

Isn't that the way it usually goes when you're trying to pin down a problem?  I would change the crank sensor to rule it out. Since you have tried different ICMs odds are slim you still have a bad one. I would keep trying to check for spark when it won't start.

 

1 hour ago, scottalan925 said:

The Fuel Integration and Block Learning (Ed19 & Ed20) are indicative of a lean condition (and the Ed20 reading is typically 150 - - which I've read may indicate a problem with a ground circuit, all of which have been cleaned and tightened... 

 

Perhaps it's also significant that earlier in the day I had an Ed17 count of "9999" - - and then later something around "2400."  Subsequently, those readings returned to '0' however. 

 

All that is a little over my head. There are people here that are more knowledgeable than me about the fuel injection that might chime in to help you sort out the readings you are getting. I do know that if the crank sensor is bad the Noid light won't get a ground signal from the ECM.

 

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Driving home from the coffee shop, the engine 'stumbled?' a bit (as if it momentarily quit firing for a moment or two) then kept going... but upon arrival at home (temp at 91 & dropping to 87 as idling for a couple of minutes), I turned off the key and then, of course... it failed to restart.  Checked the spark on the Ignition Module (cylinder #6) and found NO SPARK at all.

If it matters,..while driving home, the Knock report (Ed17) was 245... while ESC spark retard (Ed16) remained at 0; the Fuel integrator (Ed19) = 155 while the BLM fuel (Ed20) = 149 to 150.

Surely frustrating!  Need to eat and clear my head before I continue... Hope something I've written will spark an idea or two from y'all.

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The stumble while running is the same symptom I had with a failing CPS, as well as the intermittent no start which was loosely temp. related. I would be concerned with all of the spliced wires. Just for information, the harness for the CPS to ICM and a couple other sensors is a separate sub-harness on a '90 which plugs into the main engine harness behind the power steering pump.

The Integrator and Block Learn do indicate it is seriously trying to add fuel, which could be a few things, bad O2 sensor, low fuel pressure, plugged injector(s) etc.. I would change the O2 sensor if it hasn't been done recently and check for cross counts after the engine is warmed up. Some knock counts are normal due to engine noise when starting and occasionally at quick throttle transitions under load. As long as the spark retard is zero under normal driving conditions, that is pretty normal operation.

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Thank you for your knowledgeable feedback, Dave!  While the O2 sensor is new, I made the mistake of putting some protective wire wrap on the pigtail (and it melted into the first 6 or 8 inches of the wire above the sensor: Maybe that has affected it's utility.... so, yeah I'll check it out.)

 

Regarding the sub-harness:  I recently spent a day removing the entire Engine harness from a 1988 Olds Delta 88 Royale with an identical 3800 engine in it. (I'll look to see if I can just use the portion from Connector#126 forward to the ICM & Cam/Crank sensors - - although I recall that it also carried the circuits for the Delta 88's fans.) If so,  I'll swap that in first and then replace the CPS if the problems persist.  [BTW ~  I would like to ensure I'm not putting a band-aid on a cancerous problem when replacing the sensor:  Any idea what causes a CPS to 'go bad'?]  What caused yours to become a problem?

 

 

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It is my understanding that there is some sort of atmospheric exchange at the top of an O2 sensor used to determine the difference between exhaust gas and ambient O2 levels. I don't know the effect of plastic loom melted on that area?

As far as I know, the harness and routing changed for the '90 models, at least on the Reatta, so it will likely require modification.

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If you want to test to see if the O2 is causing the engine to stall just unplug it as Dashmaster suggested. That will prevent the ECM from going into closed loop and take the O2 sensor out of the picture. I think that would also eliminate coolant temperature change causing the engine to stall.

 

BTW, the ECM normally goes into closed loop operation about 160 degrees.  If your engine is stalling at 90c and restarting at 83c both of those temperatures are way past the 160f where the engine goes into closed loop operation.

 

I have a tutorial on my website that I wrote for testing the ICM and Crank sensor. You might find parts of it useful but it is intended to be used when engines will not start at all.  ICM & Crank Position Sensor Troubleshooting

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My first guess would be the coils and module.........when they fail that is the symptom.

Second suggestion..........if the crank sensor is bad, the car will not run, but it is seldom intermittent,  just good or bad

You have already figured out it is heat related.......good luck

Edited by MrEarl
split from previous duplicate post (see edit history)
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Another Thought. When I was tracing wires for E041 code awhile back I discovered factory wire splices that connected power and grounds for the Crank, Ignition Module and Cam Sensors.  I found them under the car in loom. They are just like the splices done under the seats. I was tracing back from the Ignition module and found them. This is when I was showing E041 when the car was not having any running issues. 

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It is highly unlikely the O2 sensor is causing stumble and no start. The O2 sensor is a fine tuner for the ECM.  Your major sensors(crank, coolant temp, MAP, MAF, TPS sensors) will cause serious performance issues(no start, stumble, stall).  Going back through the thread  there was mention of TPS wire issues.  This should be looked at again.  The ECM  reads voltage drops and resistance from this sensor, as well,  the others.   Poor connections, bad splicing and corrosion will make for a bad day.      

Edited by avgwarhawk (see edit history)
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  • 2 weeks later...

This thread started out as what seemed to be an urgent request for help. I was glad to see a lot of people jump in and try to help solve this stalling problem.    Thanks to everyone who tried to help!

 

This forum has turned into the ER for Buick Reattas, especially for new members.   When the patient gets up and walks out in the middle of being treated it is very frustrating.  ☹️

 

On 10/24/2018 at 12:00 PM, scottalan925 said:

I must give this project a few days of rest - - but will surely keep you posted on developments as they occur! 

 

 

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It's time for an update:  Family illness forced me to redirect my energies a few weeks ago;  but I was finally able to renew my efforts to resolve the drivability issues over the Veteran's Day weekend.  Unfortunately, a 22 mile drive prior to beginning the R&R of the Crank Position Sensor saw the vehicle run without stalling (even at 98 degrees celsius) and restart several times before mysteriously refusing to start again just after returning home.  Dead in the driveway, where it sat unattended since before Halloween..

 

So this weekend I went ahead and replaced the CPS - - with no apparent improvement (as it remains in a 'Cranks but Does Not Run' status.)   So, today I ran all the ignition tests and the following results were obtained from the  tests in Chart A-3 & Chart A-5 of the Service Manual:

 

1.  Crank Position Sensor (all EFI's produce a flashing of the NOID when cranking)

2.  CAM Position Sensor jumper-test produces voltage a bit low at 6.5 volts between A-B - - while jumping the B-C connection measures around 9 volts - - and I've yet to measure the ECM power at BC05... but,

3. There's spark from the ICM = on each coil (1, 3 & 5);

4. Coolant Temp (EC04) matches the actual temp of the cold engine;

5.  TPS is .44 volts;

6.  Key ON audibly activates Fuel Pump activates for 2 seconds 

7.  Fuel Pump Test Connector (green connecter) activates the Test-Light for 2 seconds & during cranking

8.  ... and every now and again, there is a momentary (single) ignition of fuel on the 1st crank...  HOWEVER  - - While there is some seepage of Fuel when depressing the Schrader Valve on the Fuel Rail, there is NO MEASURABLE PRESSURE registering on the Fuel Pressure Testing Gauge... and while suction can draw some fuel into the collection tube (through the unmoving gauge) when I press the pressure-relief valve on the pressure gauge,.. there is NO fuel flowing to the collection tube when I'm activating the pump with the Fuel Pump Test-Connector.

 

From this information, I deduce that my current issue is related to FUEL: A fuel line or a filter is restricted... and so I plan to disconnect the fuel delivery line under the driver's side of the vehicle to see if I might dislodge something  clogging the line - -  before I revisit the difficult task of dropping the gas tank to see if the (NEWLY INSTALLED) fuel pump's filter was dislodged or something during it's installation... [And I will probably also consider replacing the Fuel Regulator beforehand...]

 

The weather forecast is RAIN for the next 3 days, however - - so it may be Friday before I begin to explore these fun tasks!

Hopefully, my next post will be full of great news... and again, Thank Y'all for caring and being so responsive when I sought your feedback!!

~ Scott

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  • 1 month later...

First of all, I am extending my apologies to all who may have wanted to read of the results of this project.  My failure to post seems inconsiderate to me in retrospect and I'm sure I'm not alone in feeling that way - - but I have been dealing with familial health issues that were simply far more urgent and challenging.  I hope no one took my delayed update personally!

 

After overhauling the Fuel Rail for cleaning (and using a carb-cleaner on the fuel jets) followed by a complete overhaul (R&R) of the gas tank, fuel-filter (which appeared to be fine) & replacing the in-line fuel filter (contents of which was ABSOLUTELY FILTHY with sediments),  the vehicle started right up & idles perfectly.  Seems to me that I had multiple issues and I've finally addressed most of them, with one exception...

 

My brand new battery is not charging properly. I  believe that I may have ruined the generator by replacing the serpentine belt with one too small (when I chose to by-pass the compressor when I removed the A/C system.) I was never terribly happy with the tension of that drive-belt and only recently  saw that someone else posted the 'appropriate' part numbers for the drive-belt for a by-passed A/C compressor pulley.  I plan to order the GATES belt #K060725 from AutoZone for $24 - - and then head to the Pick-A-Part yard to see if I can find an appropriate 120A generator (designated as Model #CS-144 in the Service Manual.)  Most everything I've seen on-line for generators having that model number is rated at 200 or 300 amps,.. so I'm a bit confused; but perhaps the model number has more to do with the configuration of bolts?  IDK,... but hopefully things will begin to make sense as I begin devoting more time to the project. 

 

Thanks again to all who have contributed their knowledge & time to these endeavors... and I extend wishes for your very Happy Holidays!

Scott

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Scott,

I just replaced mine a month ago and it works great, because it is an AC Delco OEM. I bought it off of RockAuto for $134 with a 5% discount. here is the Info: (Note the Bolded CS144)

 

ACDELCO 3351224 {#19298376} (New) Professional

Pulley Outside Diameter 2.2 IN
Pulley Outside Diameter 57.0 MM
Voltage 12 2H
DE to Pulley 1st Groove 0.87 IN
DE to Pulley 1st Groove 22.0 MM
DE to Rotor Shaft End 1.69 IN
DE to Rotor Shaft End 43.0 mm
Plug Clock Rear View Main Mounting Ear at 6 O Clock 10
Plug Type 309
Terminal Connection Quantity 4
Alternator Case Material Aluminum
Finish Same as OE
Fan Type External
Ground Type Negative
Rotation Direction Clockwise
External Fan Included Yes
One Wire Capable No
Pulley Included Yes
Family Delco CS144
Pulley Groove Quantity 6
Pulley Belt Type Serpentine
Regulator Type Internal
Amperage Rating 120 68
Mounting Type 1 Pivot Foot

Alternate/OEM Part Number(s): 19298376

 

Here is the discount code and directions:

9586151991308087

 

How to Use Your Discount Code

Enter the code above in the "How did you hear about us" box without any other numbers or characters.

 

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