pesd

16 valve blown turbo? white smoke

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Hi,

Need a hand diagnosing lose of oil, white smoke from exhaust. 2.2 cosworth head. 

Engine seems to run fine, not misfiring, temp gauge almost always on the cool side even on very hot days sitting in traffic ( I'v always wondered if it was accurate)

14,000K on engine most of the time I baby it but occasionally open it up. Just about to put it away for the winter and noticed the white smoke, low oil. (hard not to notice, lots of smoke)

Did a compression check today , 3 cylinders at about 95 psi except #1 at 90 (is that enough to consider a blown HG??) plugs look good, was going to do a block test but could not get the engine warm enough to open the Tstat without fogging out the neighborhood.

I love this car and hope to have it for summers for a long time.

I have the blue manual but am having a tough time figuring out what engine they are talking about when trying to trouble shoot.

I'm hoping its not the head gasket but if it is do would it be hard to find a new one? same for the turbo could it be the oil seals / rings, rebuilt? new?

Lots of questions, thanks for any direction, hopefully pay it back in the future.

 PESD

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Just re read this post, sorry for the typo's but still need some direction.

Thanks, PESD

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The first thing to do in diagnosing this is to start the engine and walk back to the exhaust smoke. Take a good whiff. Does the smoke smell like antifreeze or oil?

If it smells like antifreeze, it is likely a head gasket. The 5# difference in compression pressure is not significant, in my opinion.

If the exhaust smoke smells like oil, it is the turbocharger that has failed, ir will need to be repaired or replaced. If you suspect the turbocharger, you can run one more simple test.

Disconnect AND PLUG the oil feed line to the turbocharger. Shown in picture. 1262644805_CKs9pwdSQlEsFb32toZ8w_thumb_4429.jpg.77564171ee03eb12af52ec11682dc883.jpg  Then run the engine and the smoke should diminish after a while. It might take some time since the oil that is already in the exhaust system has to be burnt away. This is a picture of an 8 valve engine, but the oil line that runs to the turbo is connected at the same location, right neat to the oil pressure sending unit.

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You already did a compression test, which looks OK to me (consider these engines are really low compression). What did the spark plugs look like?

 

You can pull the intake hose off of the compressor side of the turbo and see if there's any play in the wheel or oil in the intake hose.

 

I highly recommend a leak-down test as that will tell you exactly what you need to know.

 

You can also rent a test kit that tests the coolant for exhaust to determine if the headgasket is blown. Another quick check is, once the engine is up  to operating temp, are there bubbles being blown into the coolant?

 

Last thing...when does the smoke occur?

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Pressure test the cooling system, if it will hold pressure it must not have coolant getting into the exhaust.

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5 hours ago, Reaper1 said:

You already did a compression test, which looks OK to me (consider these engines are really low compression). What did the spark plugs look like?

 

You can pull the intake hose off of the compressor side of the turbo and see if there's any play in the wheel or oil in the intake hose.

 

I highly recommend a leak-down test as that will tell you exactly what you need to know.

 

You can also rent a test kit that tests the coolant for exhaust to determine if the headgasket is blown. Another quick check is, once the engine is up  to operating temp, are there bubbles being blown into the coolant?

 

Last thing...when does the smoke occur?

Q9c8uam2s92IHMN3yS4eZi895NIud7MfJMFRWs728pE0E-NIoDD2SPlvb3gBlla1b0Rbj_myxBPjqsjtau84y5ObPSHyJGNZib7f9bvSqKRQ7g0l8lxvi_NJHPB5EGMPw5nF_uvz6M-uFqAquhdmBTpo0e7WRu3kx3fARWs6dtdFt1Ugh4M9Eiu9qP39sEx0OuBk4-qsVtOEmI2IypSTVz5ry-HXM6UW5356Nokh3KzcsHiEf-AgLChvI0Lp4bA0IyfGMNZ4hpY1GwFgjXqpwOD8J5OUmJWRWMjUjd123WAWKDPuWI1S2SVHIVTRMdL-_yLum0sNdNjkU22zVXxLkoeu_V1RnMJwTAWCW3_V5Y0-j4tuCw_sIuCgUe-9rWHIEzeO3EOjEzsOntZ5dMFqJOFirfjTiMDdKTVUUvHZdXrxLLbK83ZMKbXrn-j5znfa335AGaK9NP9gO5Sa50QDGtavw0pFjej2mYeHqaS5ZoGUVU-KUTJTyRvTUkcIMLknHwOQajid8FzG8rMoO-KslVDBdW50n7-MqIfmHKioeAwEPCNQRq3epX0EdK6wdCpTt6YY-xebX77cDnENy6E8WzI-S7w_sH2lxWMkmt_4B0kk_HoV-bxEWeIHUW2yo3I=w567-h1007-no

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3 hours ago, 4 Peaks said:

Pressure test the cooling system, if it will hold pressure it must not have coolant getting into the exhaust.

will do this next weekend, thx

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9 hours ago, Hemi Dude said:

The first thing to do in diagnosing this is to start the engine and walk back to the exhaust smoke. Take a good whiff. Does the smoke smell like antifreeze or oil?

If it smells like antifreeze, it is likely a head gasket. The 5# difference in compression pressure is not significant, in my opinion.

If the exhaust smoke smells like oil, it is the turbocharger that has failed, ir will need to be repaired or replaced. If you suspect the turbocharger, you can run one more simple test.

Disconnect AND PLUG the oil feed line to the turbocharger. Shown in picture. 1262644805_CKs9pwdSQlEsFb32toZ8w_thumb_4429.jpg.77564171ee03eb12af52ec11682dc883.jpg  Then run the engine and the smoke should diminish after a while. It might take some time since the oil that is already in the exhaust system has to be burnt away. This is a picture of an 8 valve engine, but the oil line that runs to the turbo is connected at the same location, right neat to the oil pressure sending unit.

Thanks so much for the replies and advice, I won’t have time till this coming weekend to address your suggestion(s) for diagnosis; I will keep you posted and really appreciate the input.

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9 hours ago, Hemi Dude said:

The first thing to do in diagnosing this is to start the engine and walk back to the exhaust smoke. Take a good whiff. Does the smoke smell like antifreeze or oil?

If it smells like antifreeze, it is likely a head gasket. The 5# difference in compression pressure is not significant, in my opinion.

If the exhaust smoke smells like oil, it is the turbocharger that has failed, ir will need to be repaired or replaced. If you suspect the turbocharger, you can run one more simple test.

Disconnect AND PLUG the oil feed line to the turbocharger. Shown in picture. 1262644805_CKs9pwdSQlEsFb32toZ8w_thumb_4429.jpg.77564171ee03eb12af52ec11682dc883.jpg  Then run the engine and the smoke should diminish after a while. It might take some time since the oil that is already in the exhaust system has to be burnt away. This is a picture of an 8 valve engine, but the oil line that runs to the turbo is connected at the same location, right neat to the oil pressure sending unit.

 

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9 hours ago, Hemi Dude said:

The first thing to do in diagnosing this is to start the engine and walk back to the exhaust smoke. Take a good whiff. Does the smoke smell like antifreeze or oil?

If it smells like antifreeze, it is likely a head gasket. The 5# difference in compression pressure is not significant, in my opinion.

If the exhaust smoke smells like oil, it is the turbocharger that has failed, ir will need to be repaired or replaced. If you suspect the turbocharger, you can run one more simple test.

Disconnect AND PLUG the oil feed line to the turbocharger. Shown in picture. 1262644805_CKs9pwdSQlEsFb32toZ8w_thumb_4429.jpg.77564171ee03eb12af52ec11682dc883.jpg  Then run the engine and the smoke should diminish after a while. It might take some time since the oil that is already in the exhaust system has to be burnt away. This is a picture of an 8 valve engine, but the oil line that runs to the turbo is connected at the same location, right neat to the oil pressure sending unit.

Thanks so much for the replies and advice, I won’t have time till this coming weekend to address your suggestion(s) for diagnosis; I will keep you posted and really appreciate the input.

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Thanks so much for the replies and advice, I won’t have time till this coming weekend to address your suggestion(s) for diagnosis; I will keep you posted and really appreciate the input.

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10 hours ago, Hemi Dude said:

The first thing to do in diagnosing this is to start the engine and walk back to the exhaust smoke. Take a good whiff. Does the smoke smell like antifreeze or oil?

If it smells like antifreeze, it is likely a head gasket. The 5# difference in compression pressure is not significant, in my opinion.

If the exhaust smoke smells like oil, it is the turbocharger that has failed, ir will need to be repaired or replaced. If you suspect the turbocharger, you can run one more simple test.

Disconnect AND PLUG the oil feed line to the turbocharger. Shown in picture. 1262644805_CKs9pwdSQlEsFb32toZ8w_thumb_4429.jpg.77564171ee03eb12af52ec11682dc883.jpg  Then run the engine and the smoke should diminish after a while. It might take some time since the oil that is already in the exhaust system has to be burnt away. This is a picture of an 8 valve engine, but the oil line that runs to the turbo is connected at the same location, right neat to the oil pressure sending unit.

Thanks so much for the replies and advice, I won’t have time till this coming weekend to address your suggestion(s) for diagnosis; I will keep you posted and really appreciate the input.

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Thanks so much for the replies and advice, I won’t have time till this coming weekend to address your suggestion(s) for diagnosis; I will keep you posted and really appreciate the input.

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18 minutes ago, pesd said:

 Q9c8uam2s92IHMN3yS4eZi895NIud7MfJMFRWs728pE0E-NIoDD2SPlvb3gBlla1b0Rbj_myxBPjqsjtau84y5ObPSHyJGNZib7f9bvSqKRQ7g0l8lxvi_NJHPB5EGMPw5nF_uvz6M-uFqAquhdmBTpo0e7WRu3kx3fARWs6dtdFt1Ugh4M9Eiu9qP39sEx0OuBk4-qsVtOEmI2IypSTVz5ry-HXM6UW5356Nokh3KzcsHiEf-AgLChvI0Lp4bA0IyfGMNZ4hpY1GwFgjXqpwOD8J5OUmJWRWMjUjd123WAWKDPuWI1S2SVHIVTRMdL-_yLum0sNdNjkU22zVXxLkoeu_V1RnMJwTAWCW3_V5Y0-j4tuCw_sIuCgUe-9rWHIEzeO3EOjEzsOntZ5dMFqJOFirfjTiMDdKTVUUvHZdXrxLLbK83ZMKbXrn-j5znfa335AGaK9NP9gO5Sa50QDGtavw0pFjej2mYeHqaS5ZoGUVU-KUTJTyRvTUkcIMLknHwOQajid8FzG8rMoO-KslVDBdW50n7-MqIfmHKioeAwEPCNQRq3epX0EdK6wdCpTt6YY-xebX77cDnENy6E8WzI-S7w_sH2lxWMkmt_4B0kk_HoV-bxEWeIHUW2yo3I=w567-h1007-no

Smoke as soon as motor fires.

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I will hold back on any more guesses until test results are back. Too many possibilities.

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3 hours ago, Reaper1 said:

I will hold back on any more guesses until test results are back. Too many possibilities.

We can all wait until he has a chance to check it out further. The SMELL TEST is the simplest, quickest and requires no tools or equipment except a NOSE.

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I'll try to keep it quick, dont want keep you guy's hanging because I know your trying to help, THANK'S!

I was planning on storing the car for the winter no matter what.

 

The smoke is oil

 

Recently my brother just leased an old Chrysler dealer building and is starting a sports car restoration shop.

He is very knowledgeable and has been racing and rebuilding cars for the past twenty years (we both worked on sports cars with my dad since we've been about ten, 40+ years ago)

 

We trailed it over to his shop today (for the winter) but before we put it in a corner of his showroom we put it up on a lift and took a look. 

Lots of oil around the bottom of the engine we assume the frond and rear seals need replacing, no oil any were around the turbo, dipstick is clear oil no milkiness , plugs look clean.

 

He suspects the rings or valve seals are blown and an engine rebuild is most likely needed, If that"s what it is that will be my mission the beginning of next year. Hip replacement in a month.

 

Hemi Dude, thanks, while I had it on the lift today I should have taken your advise and plugged the oil intake to the turbo to see if the smoke would calm, ( though I mention around the turbo is clean of oil on the exterior, could it be internal seals/ rings leaking causing the smoke?). Now that I think of it I will definitely try that before I start thinking about pulling the engine.

Hemi Dude you mentioned the low compression is common or normal for that engine. My brother also pointed out that the 95 psi on the compression test is very low leading him to believe it's rings or seals, he pointed it out to me in the shop manual that the 16 valve should be 128 psi? I did a simple test, plugs in, dry. How do think they measure the 128 psi, wet test plugs out?? I dont know. It's odd there all 95 except #1 at 90 psi,  if it were rings or seals I think the compression test would be all over the place.

 

Above all, I dont question anyone's theories, knowledge or opinion, especially my brother who always go's above and beyond trying to help. Just trying to figure it out.

Shit happens, the car is unique, fun and fast. It will be back on the road next spring, one way or another, only 14K but about thirty years old.

 

Any advise, ideas or support is always appreciated.

THANKS

      PESD 

 

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This engine is ~7.8:1 compression (there's different specs listed in different references). Static compression is going to show low. Especially if the engine is cold and hasn't been run in a while.

 

DO NOT try to spray oil in the cylinders to get better numbers as the dish is so large on the pistons all you're going to do is make a pool of oil in the dish.

 

I highly doubt the entire engine needs rebuilt. I *DO* suggest looking at the rod bearings, but as for the rest of the bottom end...unless it got rusty or trash went through it, it's most likely fine.

 

The heads are known to have a few things go bad. #1 are the exhaust valves and guides. The metallurgy wasn't exactly the best then and these items can both cause burning oil. If you have out of round valves, that can attribute to lower static compression.

 

Since the car can now be put on a rack, I suggest taking the exhaust downpipe off of the turbo and seeing if it's got oil in it as well as checking the play in the turbo compressor shaft.

 

Do a leakdown check before you tear the engine apart.

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Thanks Reaper1,

 I owe you and Hemi Dude for your input and expertise, unfortunately I am cramming all my hours into my real job for the next couple weeks anticipating the time I will miss for my hip surgery I mentioned.

 

Unfortunately I dont think I will be under a car until the beginning of next year (unless I get run over). Until then any thoughts or Ideas are greatly appreciated, send them over, and I will review all the advice and suggestions and be back corresponding with you guys when I start turning wrenches again in January.

THX, 

 PESD

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