My 18 year old sent me this...funny

[Graham Man]

Well they are still talking about cars....

 

[capngrog]

I have to agree with that, 100%!

 

The particular example of post 1990 automotive engineering shown above, while ill-disposed toward convenient maintenance, is not a particularly valid one since all one has to do to access the oil filter, is just remove the engine.  Piece o' cake!  After all, it only took them a few minutes to install the engine/transaxle (whatever) on the production line.

 

Cheers,

[PFitz]

S'why I don't want to work on new cars.  As they got smaller and more crowed, I got bigger.

 

Paul

[46 woodie]

Isn't there a Cadillac model that has the starter motor under the valley pan? You basically have to remove the entire top of the motor to replace the starter. Cap, right you are. I have heard horror stories about having to lift the motor to get at a spark plug. It's impossible to do an oil change on my modern car without spilling oil on my driveway. First you need to be a contortionist to just get at the filter and second it's mounted SIDEWAYS, so when you unscrew it, out comes the oil.

[Guest]

How true!

If the engineers who designed them ever had to work on them they never would have made the Ford Aerostar (among others).

They were a particular bane to most repair shops in the 80's with a book time of close to 4 hours to r&r the spark plugs. Ugh!

?

[Vila]

Sounds like some of you are buying the wrong brand of modern cars for doing your own oil changes.

 

I just lift up the hood and undo the oil filter on top of the engine on both my modern cars.  One has the oil filter just behind the radiator and the other just behind the valve cover, but both are at the top of the engine.

[TerryB]

Go electric, no filter or oil!

Edited October 5, 2018 by TerryB (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

2 hours ago, 46 woodie said:

Isn't there a Cadillac model that has the starter motor under the valley pan? You basically have to remove the entire top of the motor to replace the starter. Cap, right you are. I have heard horror stories about having to lift the motor to get at a spark plug. It's impossible to do an oil change on my modern car without spilling oil on my driveway. First you need to be a contortionist to just get at the filter and second it's mounted SIDEWAYS, so when you unscrew it, out comes the oil.

Many engines now have the starter in the valley, under the intake. The environment there is much more benign so the starter lasts longer. In the case of the Northstar, the top of the intake comes off with four bolts. The gasket is a reusable o-ring. Starter replacement (WITHOUT jacking up the car) takes no more time than for an older car. Maybe we engineers aren't so stupid after all.

[c49er]

Have you done a Lexas or Tundra starter! 

Under the intake and not a simple job unless you are a dealer hot shot tech.

[keninman]

1960s engine and oil be like  "you gotta change it every 3000 miles"  2018 engines and oil be like "you might have to change it every 7000 miles and the engine will let you know when"

 

I should mention that my 29 Studebaker's manual said you need to change the first time at 500 miles and every 1000 miles after that unless you are using the choke a lot then back to 500 miles. Also most did not come from the factory with an oil filter. 

 

Edited October 5, 2018 by keninman
added a paragraph (see edit history)

[joe_padavano]

3 hours ago, c49er said:

Have you done a Lexas or Tundra starter! 

Under the intake and not a simple job unless you are a dealer hot shot tech.

The Cadillac that 46 woodie referred to also has the starter under the intake. Go read my post again. You do not have to remove "the whole top of the motor" to replace that starter. I've never touched a Lexus or Tundra, nor do I plan to.

[John348]

7 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

Many engines now have the starter in the valley, under the intake. The environment there is much more benign so the starter lasts longer. In the case of the Northstar, the top of the intake comes off with four bolts.

 

Most Northstar engines were toast before they needed a starter

4 hours ago, keninman said:

1960s engine and oil be like  "you gotta change it every 3000 miles"  2018 engines and oil be like "you might have to change it every 7000 miles and the engine will let you know when"

 

 In all honesty the engine oil today is much better then it was in the 60's, and with fuel injection the engine never runs rich eliminating gasoline contamination

Edited October 6, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[cahartley]

10 hours ago, TerryB said:

Go electric, no filter or oil!

 

Actually, for the casual city commuter, that's a good idea.

[Rusty_OToole]

Years ago Road & Track magazine published a race track photo, taken in the 20s. It showed a row of outhouses and above them a billboard that said "Drain Your Crankcase Every 1000 Miles".

[c49er]

3 hours ago, joe_padavano said:

The Cadillac that 46 woodie referred to also has the starter under the intake. Go read my post again. You do not have to remove "the whole top of the motor" to replace that starter. I've never touched a Lexus or Tundra, nor do I plan to.

I've replaced both.

[capngrog]

      17 hours ago, TerryB said:

Go electric, no filter or oil!

7 hours ago, cahartley said:

 

Actually, for the casual city commuter, that's a good idea.

For the casual city commuter ... go uber or lyft: no filter, no oil, no parking/registration fees, no insurance etc.

Of course, in the not so distant future, there may not be any need to leave one's home at all.  All necessities will/may be available for on line ordering with delivery to one's doorstep, one could work at home etcetera, etcetera ...

'Tis a brave new world.

Cheers,

Grog

[Fleek]

I remember the day I needed to replace the battery for my 2008 Dodge avenger and discovered that to install it you start by removing the front left wheel, open a panel in the inner wheel well, slide the battery out of the opening, etc...…...

[Marty Roth]

7 minutes ago, Fleek said:

I remember the day I needed to replace the battery for my 2008 Dodge avenger and discovered that to install it you start by removing the front left wheel, open a panel in the inner wheel well, slide the battery out of the opening, etc...…...

 

Our (former) 2005 Sebring convertible (since wrecked by a person who crossed the Interstate while texting?), also had the battery in the front left wheel well. You had to remove the tire, remove the splash shield, sit on the ground, and be a contortionist to undo the battery cables - then reverse the process to reinstall. My 1959 Alfa-Romeo Giulietta Veloce had the battery conveniently located in the tunk at the rear of the car - easy access and also helped toward even weight distribution.

 

Last night I tried to find out why only one horn is now working on our 2002 Suburban since the new transmission was installed. I finally found one but could never find the other - maybe it was left out?

[60FlatTop]

The real question about extended oil changes is:

 

Do you want to risk getting on the bad side of this woman.

Or risk a set of timing chains for your DOHC engine.

 

They took the chains... timing chains.

Bernie

Edited October 6, 2018 by 60FlatTop (see edit history)

[Fleek]

Marty, strange how the cars we own are so similar to each other.  Your Sebring and my Avenger are close kin and I have a 2003 Tahoe to go with your  Suburban.

[JACK M]

Years ago I was tasked to do a tune up on a Chevrolet Monza.

The owner was complaining that it has never run right and he had had it tuned up a couple of times.

I had to undo the engine mounts and lift the engine up (A HUGE hassle if I remember right)

There is a spark plug that cannot be accessed any other way. The manual said to put a vacuum line on it to turn the spark plug but that is some kind of a joke in my opinion.

(by now someone had cracked it)

The car wasn't new and that particular plug was the original and broken. I guess all the other shops just figured that 7 was good enough.

I got a pretty good tip for making the thing run like new again.

[John348]

1 hour ago, JACK M said:

Years ago I was tasked to do a tune up on a Chevrolet Monza.

The owner was complaining that it has never run right and he had had it tuned up a couple of times.

I had to undo the engine mounts and lift the engine up (A HUGE hassle if I remember right)

There is a spark plug that cannot be accessed any other way. The manual said to put a vacuum line on it to turn the spark plug but that is some kind of a joke in my opinion.

(by now someone had cracked it)

The car wasn't new and that particular plug was the original and broken. I guess all the other shops just figured that 7 was good enough.

I got a pretty good tip for making the thing run like new again.

 

As the owner of a V-8 Monza now, I had heard all of the horror stories over the years, it really was not that bad (with a lift)  It is the #3 plug that is blocked by the steering shaft, initially they were not going to use a V-8, GM paid Mazda a ton of money to use the Wankel Rotary engine, which they bailed on prior to production and went with the common swap that was being done to the prior H bodies and put in a small block Chevy V-8. Most of those cars rotted away before they needed a second set of plugs

Edited October 6, 2018 by John348 (see edit history)

[29hupp]

2013 Chevrolet, dealer wants $450 to change a headlight bulb.  Front bumper plus other stuff has to be removed to change the bulb plus bulbs are $50 for the cheep ones or $85 or the better ones. 

[padgett]

Interesting. So many PBIs. My V8 Sunbird was that way but was very easy to remove the two bolts from the mount and raise the engine to clear the shaft though was two different levels for two different plugs AFAIR. Was very reliable but like most SBCs after a certain period they would start using A Lot of oil. And plugs. After enough autocrosses though I punched the top out of the spring towers, puchcked the clutch linkage through the firewall, and was fortunate the 13x6 Vega GT wheels were common because I cracked at least one every weekend.

 

Sunbeam Tiger had two plugs you removed from inside the passenger compartment.

 

Seems that Northstars went through a big improvement when the VVT came out, was always DOHC but  after 2003 (been around since 1993) are much more reliable. As long as they have oil pressure. Have heard the Aurora ShortStar is the best for hopping up.

 

Want something fun ? From 2004 to 2007 there were a Whole Bunch of Mercedes M272 engines (V6) built with defective balance gears. No Big for a Buick V6 but for Merc meant the balance shaft had to be replaced. In true Germanic precision the Merc  had a bolt on the end of the balance shaft. Under the flex plate. The MB TSB requires removing the engine ($4,000) to replace. Was a class action suit but time has now expired for all affected e.g. SLK280s and SLK350s. 

[intimeold]

On 10/5/2018 at 7:01 PM, c49er said:

Have you done a Lexas or Tundra starter! 

Under the intake and not a simple job unless you are a dealer hot shot tech.

The starter in the intake valley was on the older 4.7  engines.  Not sure of all the applications that engine was used  in.

 

The  Tundra, starting in 2007  used the 5.7 engine; and the starter is in the  normal position, on the side of the engine, and bolting into the bellhousing/transmission.  

 

There is a 4.6 engine; not usually seen, in a Tundra; but available.  The 4.6 is not the same as the 4.7,  it is a more modern engine like the 5.7. Don't know where the starter is.

 

Granted the starter in the V , and under the intake is not a good idea. But never had any in my shop, on the 4.7 Tundra that needed replacement; but the Cadillac Northstar engine was another story.  But as somebody has already posted the Northstar had many more problems than the starter.  

[capngrog]

1 hour ago, padgett said:

Interesting. So many PBIs.

 

What's a "PBI"?

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Frank DuVal]

Pitney Bowes Incorporated stock ticker symbol, or maybe he uses Palm Beach International Airport??

[joe_padavano]

19 hours ago, John348 said:

 

As the owner of a V-8 Monza now, I had heard all of the horror stories over the years, it really was not that bad (with a lift) 

 

I've found that the people who complain most loudly about stuff like this are the ones who've never actually worked on the cars in question.

 

Again, I can't speak to the Toyota, but there's another very good reason for the location of the Northstart starter.  This motor was originally designed only for use in transverse FWD applications with the 4T80E transmission.  Given the packaging constraints of that design, there aren't a lot of places to put an external starter.  I've owned a 1993 Allante. Between steering, engine cradle, exhaust, and transaxle, there isn't a lot of external space to mount the starter.

 

I've also worked on a V6 Chysler Pacifica minivan with the starter in the "conventional" location on the lower front of the transverse engine. Replacing the starter required removing the grill, front facia, front bumper, and radiator, then lifting the motor just so, removing the front motor mount, and carefully twisting and maneuvering the starter out through the tiny space available. I really WISH that starter had been in the vee, under the intake... 

[PFitz]

To get to the three rear spark plugs on our Ford Taurus 3.5 and Escape 3.0 v-6 engines, many of the control wires, fuel system, and the intake manifold has to be disconnected and removed, but first you have to figure out how to unplug many things without breaking the electrical connectors. Then remove the coil pack covers of each spark plug, which don't want to come out easily.  It's a few hours if you've never done it before. 

 

Last week, the alternator/AC serpentine belt broke on the Taurus.  Ford got smarter by putting a 3/8 ratchet drive square hole in the tension idler to pull it back so you can slip the belt on. With my Windstar I had to get a large prybar in there to do that. They just didn't leave enough room to get a ratchet on it and also get a hand down there to work the belt onto the idler.  I had to make a hook rod to reach down and work the new belt onto the idler as I held the ratchet with my other hand,... and an LED flashlight in my teeth. Even in daylight, it was too dark down there to see if the belt is getting into position.  

 

Plus, the flashlight helped to keep the volume of my cursing down so the neighbors wouldn't hear it !!!!!  

 

Paul 

[John348]

We are talking like starter failure is common as it was 30 years ago. When was the last time any newer car took longer than 1 1/2 seconds to crank and start? They made millions and millions of the cars we play with for a hobby but very few survived, why was that? Cars were that good? If they ran forever then the manufacturers would have been out of business a long time ago