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Oil & Filter

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On 10/7/2018 at 6:09 PM, telriv said:

For the most part the rope seals will start leaking with synthetic oil & when you change back to Dino oil the leak doesn't stop. So the ONLY remedy is to replace them with the more modern seals. IF the car smokes a little on start-up with synthetic it will smoke more.

Tom, I've even heard of partially synthetic oil made by Brad(?). I think I'll just stick with the conventional oil and change oil and filter often.

Red Riviera Bob

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4 hours ago, 60FlatTop said:

 

That was exactly my thought as I read. I frequently say "Many people live more blissful lives than I". Makes my Wife cringe.

 

I am getting ready to do a major synthetic fluid change on the modern BMW, which specifies them. Everything that lubes in liquid form is going to be flushed at least once. The non-events from that and my mineral oil efforts on the old cars can't be calculated. And, in lubrication, the non-event is the indicator of success.

 

The molecular level cause for a rope seal leak are interesting. I have done a lot of work with micro sized suspended solids in heat transfer fluids. When we look at high efficiency heat exchanger passages we look at two particles jammed together in a passage rather than the size of one flowing through alone. That could be similar to the synthetic seal action. So much for bliss!

Bernie

To Bliss or not to Bliss is the question. Now, I'm on board with the manufacturer of a modern vehicle specifying synthetic oil. The oil is to lubricate. What makes a synthetic oil lubricate better than conventional oil? Oil actually doesn't wear out. The oil in the car engine gets contaminated with the gases from the combustion ? Would not another clean oil filter take out the contaminates in the oil and just keep chugging on? If,  my half baked assumption had some substance then we would just change filters and not the oil?

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No, oil does wear out.  It breaks down.  Especially with heat.  It's an organic molecule.

 

Plus the additives are consumed over time and miles by their action doing what they were put there to do.  Corrosion control, scavengers, etc.

 

Multi-viscosity oils have viscosity modifiers in them to help keep them a bit thicker when they get hot than they would otherwise.  These modifiers break down with heat and time, allowing the oil to get too thin when hot.

 

So, no, I would not recommend you just change the oil filter and top it up.

 

 

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Combustion also produces liquid contaminants which are not removed by any filter.  These include water (which may be fairly well expelled by frequent one-hour drives) and also acids, which are removed only by draining the oil.  I believe there is no substitute for regular oil changes, arguably best done at the end of one's driving season before the long winter's nap.

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AND, ONLY AFTER the car is driven & drained while the engine is STILL HOT & ALL the contaminants are still in suspension & can be drained at the same time.

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16 hours ago, Jim Cannon said:

No, oil does wear out.  It breaks down.  Especially with heat.  It's an organic molecule.

 

Plus the additives are consumed over time and miles by their action doing what they were put there to do.  Corrosion control, scavengers, etc.

 

Multi-viscosity oils have viscosity modifiers in them to help keep them a bit thicker when they get hot than they would otherwise.  These modifiers break down with heat and time, allowing the oil to get too thin when hot.

 

So, no, I would not recommend you just change the oil filter and top it up.

 

 

Jim, thanks for the information. I'm all in for learning about lubricants. Your information helps me along in preserving my 63 Red Riviera for the future.

Thanks again

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7 hours ago, telriv said:

AND, ONLY AFTER the car is driven & drained while the engine is STILL HOT & ALL the contaminants are still in suspension & can be drained at the same time.

Tom, thanks for the tip. I ALWAYS changed oil when the engine was cold. I did not like the hot oil getting on my hands. For some reason or other I generally touch the hot engine. Ok, I'll be more careful now and change the oil when the engine is hot.

Red Riviera Bob

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16 hours ago, Grimy said:

Combustion also produces liquid contaminants which are not removed by any filter.  These include water (which may be fairly well expelled by frequent one-hour drives) and also acids, which are removed only by draining the oil.  I believe there is no substitute for regular oil changes, arguably best done at the end of one's driving season before the long winter's nap.

Grimy, thank you for the information. I appreciate you responding. I always thought oil in the engine did not have any water in the fluid; however, I'm eager to learn new things about engine lubricants.

Thank you

Red Riviera Bob

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10 minutes ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Grimy, thank you for the information. I appreciate you responding. I always thought oil in the engine did not have any water in the fluid; however, I'm eager to learn new things about engine lubricants.

Thank you

Red Riviera Bob

 

Yes, there is water and unburned fuel (especially on our cars with carburetors).

 

When any hydrocarbon fuel burns, like gasoline, it produces a lot of water (plus things like carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide -- CO2) and some of the water vapor gets into the crankcase and condenses to liquid.  Especially when the engine block is cold from sitting all night.  Short trips are the worse because the oil never gets hot enough for long enough to vaporize the water and drive it out of the oil and crankcase.

 

I recommend you drive the car on the road for 20+ minutes, 10 to 20 miles, before changing the oil.  And when you start it to "keep it running", go drive at least 20 minutes.   5 minutes of idling in the garage is worse than not starting it at all. 

 

You should also only check the automatic transmission fluid after at least a 20 minute drive, to get the fluid hot, or else you will overfill it.

 

 

 

 

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Owners and Factory Service Manuals say to change the oil every 60 days regardless of miles, doubt there are too many doing that.

 

If we did any good regular 10W30 out of the ground would be just fine. Steve

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The most useful car maintenance tip my Father ever gave me was to change the oil and filter early and often compared to factory recommendations. I have spent a lot of money on oil and filters over the years but I have never had an engine failure due to lubrication issues so I take it as very cheap insurance.

 

One other tip: if your filter is mounted vertically fill it with oil before installation to allow quick pressure buildup when starting. If you can't do that, crank the motor over with the coil wire pulled until you see pressure on the gauge or until the idiot light goes out.

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The first generation Rivieras are all equipped with oil "idiot" lights.  These are good only when you have no oil pressure.  A proper guage will tell you what kind of pressure you have at all times (WHAT RPM'S YOUR ENGINE IS TURNING.) If you have a lot of miles on your engine, you're going to have some wear!  Even a worn engine develops some oil pressure and keeps your warning light off.  So while a 10W-30 oil might keep your light off, you might be only getting 10 or fewer pounds of pressure and adding wear to the engine.  So why not run an oil with a higher viscosity and pump up your pressure a bit.  It might give you  couple of more years before that lamp turns red for good. Unless you're reading a guage, you have no idea.  Additionally, adding an auxiliary gauge might be a good idea as well. Anyone care to comment on the yeahs or nays of an electrical guage vs a mechanical one? Old school rule of thumb says you want 10 lbs of pressure for every 1,000 rpm's.

Edited by RivNut (see edit history)

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3 hours ago, TexRiv_63 said:

The most useful car maintenance tip my Father ever gave me was to change the oil and filter early and often compared to factory recommendations. I have spent a lot of money on oil and filters over the years but I have never had an engine failure due to lubrication issues so I take it as very cheap insurance.

 

One other tip: if your filter is mounted vertically fill it with oil before installation to allow quick pressure buildup when starting. If you can't do that, crank the motor over with the coil wire pulled until you see pressure on the gauge or until the idiot light goes out.

TexRiv_63, I actually wondered about the new oil filter not having oil in it when you change the filter with new oil. Your Father gave you good advice as my Father said the same. "Keep it clean" regarding the spout and the place the oil went in the engine were his words. I stay after the daily drivers with regular oil changes and all has gone very well over the years. I'm learning about the nuance of engine oil lubrication for my old Riviera and it helps.

Thank you

Red Riviera Bob

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1 hour ago, RivNut said:

The first generation Rivieras are all equipped with oil "idiot" lights.  These are good only when you have no oil pressure.  A proper guage will tell you what kind of pressure you have at all times (WHAT RPM'S YOUR ENGINE IS TURNING.) If you have a lot of miles on your engine, you're going to have some wear!  Even a worn engine develops some oil pressure and keeps your warning light off.  So while a 10W-30 oil might keep your light off, you might be only getting 10 or fewer pounds of pressure and adding wear to the engine.  So why not run an oil with a higher viscosity and pump up your pressure a bit.  It might give you  couple of more years before that lamp turns red for good. Unless you're reading a guage, you have no idea.  Additionally, adding an auxiliary gauge might be a good idea as well. Anyone care to comment on the yeahs or nays of an electrical guage vs a mechanical one? Old school rule of thumb says you want 10 lbs of pressure for every 1,000 rpm's.

Ed, I was going to put on mechanical gauges on my 63 Riviera. The car did not come with gauges nor did the manufacturer think the car would last this long. Any case, I decided against putting the gauges on and figured if I kept close eye and ear on everything the car should be fine. No argument the 10W 40 would provide more oil pressure and that is good for the engine. if I could find a hide out space for the gauges I'd revisit the idea. I do not like modifying my car in the least. Thank you

RRB

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Bob,

 

When I bought my 63 from the original owner (back in 82) it was equipped with a full complement of gauges* - oil, temp, amp, tach, and vacuum. All five of these were in the ash tray opening.  The lid would close, and they had their own lights and light switch.  With the lid closed, you could not tell they were there.  I only removed them because an electrical short (positive battery cable next to fender) blew out the amp meter.  If you'd like, I'll try to find a picture of the cluster and post it.  I don't know that you'd need the tach and vacuum gauge, but an oil pressure, volt meter, and temperature gauge do would be good if you've got a few miles on the engine. It couldn't hurt.

 

Ed

 

* along with an electric trailer brake setup, a full hitch receiver, and a transmission cooler.  Yes, he towed a trailer with it; a full sized Airstream. And he installed a 3.91 rear end to keep the revs up. He learned that lugging the engine under a load (towing) would cause valves to burn.

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1 hour ago, Red Riviera Bob said:

Ed, I was going to put on mechanical gauges on my 63 Riviera. The car did not come with gauges nor did the manufacturer think the car would last this long. Any case, I decided against putting the gauges on and figured if I kept close eye and ear on everything the car should be fine. No argument the 10W 40 would provide more oil pressure and that is good for the engine. if I could find a hide out space for the gauges I'd revisit the idea. I do not like modifying my car in the least. Thank you

RRB

I bought a second ashtray “compartment” for my 63. Took out the original, modified the second one to have an oil and a water meter in it and put that in.

I can easily revert back to original whilst being able to monitor what I see as important (and hide the meters by folding down the ashtray cover if I so like). Maybe something for you to consider.

 

Btw the oil pressure sensor was easy to connect together with the original and the temperature sensor was put in the rear of the engine such that both the original idiot lights are still functioning.

https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-oil-press-0-100-psi-fse-am-muscle.html

 

https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-water-temp-100-260-f-fse-am-muscle.html

 

Edited by SwedeDownUnderR63 (see edit history)

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19 hours ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

I bought a second ashtray “compartment” for my 63. Took out the original, modified the second one to have an oil and a water meter in it and put that in.

I can easily revert back to original whilst being able to monitor what I see as important (and hide the meters by folding down the ashtray cover if I so like). Maybe something for you to consider.

 

Btw the oil pressure sensor was easy to connect together with the original and the temperature sensor was put in the rear of the engine such that both the original idiot lights are still functioning.

https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-oil-press-0-100-psi-fse-am-muscle.html

 

https://www.autometer.com/2-1-16-water-temp-100-260-f-fse-am-muscle.html

 

Mr SwedeDownunder, thank you for the response and good idea. Currently, I'm using the ash tray as a kill switch mount. I put loose coins on top to hide the switch and offer a spare key that lays on top of the coins all along the kill switch is activated. Your idea is certainly food for thought to remove the ash tray and put in the gauges. Thank you for the link the gauges. The gauges certainly look like a competent pair.

Red Riviera Bob

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What good are gauges IF you can't just take a glance at them without taking your eyes off the road while driving???? That's what they are there for. I have two mechanical "Mini" gauges in front of my headlight switch in the upper left hand corner. On a '63 there is NOTHING in that spot so it interferes with NOTHING.

I will try & post pictures. Some have seen them at a few Riv. meets & thought it was very ingenious. In my view doesn't hamper the looks but, enhances the intended use. I leave my "Idiot" lights hooked up also because IF for some reason I'm NOT paying attention a red light will catch your eye. I DON'T use an amp/volt gauge. IF the amp light comes on I have some time to decide what I'm ultimately going to do. So in MY MIND it's NOT as important to me personally.  On the other hand oil pressure & coolant temp. are the IMPORTANT READINGS!!!!

Once you get use to them you can tell at a glance if something is NOT RIGHT. For instance in my case if I'm down a qt. of oil my O/P is down about 1-2pds. I can watch my temp. gauge rise & fall when my t/stat opens or when going up a long grade or coasting down a hill.

 

 

Tom T.

 

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8 hours ago, telriv said:

What good are gauges IF you can't just take a glance at them without taking your eyes off the road while driving???? That's what they are there for. I have two mechanical "Mini" gauges in front of my headlight switch in the upper left hand corner. On a '63 there is NOTHING in that spot so it interferes with NOTHING.

I will try & post pictures. Some have seen them at a few Riv. meets & thought it was very ingenious. In my view doesn't hamper the looks but, enhances the intended use. I leave my "Idiot" lights hooked up also because IF for some reason I'm NOT paying attention a red light will catch your eye. I DON'T use an amp/volt gauge. IF the amp light comes on I have some time to decide what I'm ultimately going to do. So in MY MIND it's NOT as important to me personally.  On the other hand oil pressure & coolant temp. are the IMPORTANT READINGS!!!!

Once you get use to them you can tell at a glance if something is NOT RIGHT. For instance in my case if I'm down a qt. of oil my O/P is down about 1-2pds. I can watch my temp. gauge rise & fall when my t/stat opens or when going up a long grade or coasting down a hill.

 

 

Tom T.

 

I would like to see a picture of that tom.thanks

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Well, if your gauges are by the headlight switch, then you have to take your eyes off the road to look at them.  Unless you have chameleon eyes.  ;)

 

F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

 

Maybe a heads-up display is what you're looking for?

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12 hours ago, telriv said:

What good are gauges IF you can't just take a glance at them without taking your eyes off the road while driving???? That's what they are there for. I have two mechanical "Mini" gauges in front of my headlight switch in the upper left hand corner. On a '63 there is NOTHING in that spot so it interferes with NOTHING.

I will try & post pictures. Some have seen them at a few Riv. meets & thought it was very ingenious. In my view doesn't hamper the looks but, enhances the intended use. I leave my "Idiot" lights hooked up also because IF for some reason I'm NOT paying attention a red light will catch your eye. I DON'T use an amp/volt gauge. IF the amp light comes on I have some time to decide what I'm ultimately going to do. So in MY MIND it's NOT as important to me personally.  On the other hand oil pressure & coolant temp. are the IMPORTANT READINGS!!!!

Once you get use to them you can tell at a glance if something is NOT RIGHT. For instance in my case if I'm down a qt. of oil my O/P is down about 1-2pds. I can watch my temp. gauge rise & fall when my t/stat opens or when going up a long grade or coasting down a hill.

 

 

Tom T.

 

Hi Tom,

I am afraid that it is an illusion if one think that one still have the eyes on the road while looking at any instrument. That is probably why so many nowadays thinks they can text and drive without any issues but they are just fooled by how our brain works. Admittedly your setup will minimize the time getting the information compared to my setup which, admittedly, will take longer and increase the risk.

However, I do get the benefit of being able to look at the oil pressure at startup and I can also see it with not that much of a risk at lower speeds to get an understanding of where it is at. I am also more concerned with the temperature at lower speeds and especially at stand still. As for you I still have the idiots lights that will alert me when something goes really bad. I am spoiled as I have the pleasure of traveling most of the time with my wife who also look at the gauges from time to time although probably not very frequent as she enjoys the Riviera rides too much.

 

I am still interested in seeing your setup and would appreciate any pictures. I did investigate different options that would have allowed me to get the information that I wanted without impact on the, in my view, beautiful instrument layout in my 63 but couldn't find anything better then what I selected. The -63 Riviera that I had in Sweden between 1976 and 1982 came (from previous owner) with the gauges on top of the dash which was very effective from an information point of view but looked really crappy. I do love the functions of the Dakota Digital replacement instruments but couldn't get myself to go down that road as my car would have lost some of the soul that I love so much.

http://www.dakotadigital.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=997/category_id=411/mode=prod/prd997.htm

Edited by SwedeDownUnderR63 (see edit history)

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Trying to figure out how to post pics from my camera.

 

Tom T.

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12 hours ago, SwedeDownUnderR63 said:

I am afraid that it is an illusion if one think that one still have the eyes on the road while looking at any instrument.

 

Concur.  You take your eyes off the road to use the mirrors, look at the speedometer, check the gas, turn on the wipers, adjust the radio, change the HVAC settings, read signs, etc.  A driver who never takes his eyes off the road in front of him (assuming that guy actually exists) is one who isn't very in tune with either his car or conditions around him.

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I COMPLETELY DIS-AGREE WITH ANYBODY WHO SAYS I HAVE TO TAKE MY EYES OFF THE ROAD. THESE ARE ANALOG GAUGES & IF YOU KNOW YOUR CAR/GAUGES YOU WILL KNOW WITH YOUR PEREIFIAL VISION IF SOMETHING IS AMISS WITHOUT TAKING YOUR EYES OFF THE ROAD.

END OF THIS SUBJECT FOR ME.

 

Tom T.

 

 

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