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Pilgrim65

Rarity ? Pure sales talk?

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2 hours ago, Pilgrim65 said:

l am currently involved in the restoration of a 1958 Austin healey 100/6...

the car had factory fitted disc brakes all round...

was told by a couple of knowledgeable Healey experts that only 50 such cars were produced....

 

Mr. Pilgrim, since the word "rare" is so common,

I instead use terms such as "uncommon" or "seldom-seen."

You may call your car's feature "rare" if you like, naturally.

 

Another aspect of the overuse of the word:

When people have a common car, such as a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air

convertible, they may tend to call out some "rare" FEATURE of their car.

"Only XX were made in this color combination."  "Only YY had 

air conditioning AND the signal-seeking radio."  Everyone likes to be

an individual, and sometimes that's how they achieve some individuality.

That way, almost every vehicle comes to have a rare aspect to it.

 

I like understatement and modesty instead of hype.

Edited by John_S_in_Penna (see edit history)
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I have always struggled to keep my sanity; when talking to someone who is not an avid collector of automobiles or  motorcycles. Mostly when the person uses terms like ," Rare, Special, Custom, and the famous term, Classic.

 

They have no idea that the terms; especially Custom and Special, are usually not always  though a baseline line offering from a motorcycle or automobile company.

 

I live in a State that brought out a licence plate , with "Classic" on it.  It has lower time and other  requirements , that an Antique Tag. Classic has a 15 year requirement from production date; Antique has  a 25 year time frame.  There are some other requirements also.

 

So depending on your luck at the DMV or any special help  from a notary; you can have a Classic car after 15 years  of build date.  That term Classic just makes my blood boil. These people don't even know what a Classic car is.

 

I motorcycles, I guess the term Custom , does about the same thing to me.

 

I''m sorry I was just venting.      

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I prefer Pittsburg since like a bit of char.

 

A lot depends on the make/model. For example an ongoing process involves the production record for *every* Buick Reatta (thanks Barney) and last I knew PHS had the production record of every Pontiac made since 1959 (thanks Fred). Am sure similar records for other cars exist but may be considered trade secrets.

 

Personally do not consider any car "rare" if more than 100 were built so to me a Tucker is "rare".

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5 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

 

Mr. Pilgrim, since the word "rare" is so common,

I instead use terms such as "uncommon" or "seldom-seen."

You may call your car's feature "rare" if you like, naturally.

 

Another aspect of the overuse of the word:

When people have a common car, such as a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air

convertible, they may tend to call out some "rare" FEATURE of their car.

"Only XX were made in this color combination."  "Only YY had 

air conditioning AND the signal-seeking radio."  Everyone likes to be

an individual, and sometimes that's how they achieve some individuality.

That way, almost every vehicle comes to have a rare aspect to it.

 

I like understatement and modesty instead of hype.

Thank you John , I prefer understatement to so in future I will refer to our 100/6 as uncommon as it has a rare aspect to it , perfect description ?

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13 hours ago, John_S_in_Penna said:

"Only XX were made in this color combination."  "Only YY had 

air conditioning AND the signal-seeking radio."  Everyone likes to be

an individual, and sometimes that's how they achieve some individuality.

That way, almost every vehicle comes to have a rare aspect to it.

An 'Elite' version of a Marti Report for Ford vehicles reads exactly that way until it gets to a low-digit figure in the breakdown-by-model/option/color column..

 

Craig

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I feel like I’m beating a dead horse here but I agree with the idea of it depends what the car is. My 91 reatta is one of four in its color combo and options. I guess that’s uncommon for an uncommon car. Yet at most car shows I’ve gone too my most asked question is “what’s that?”, then I tell them and they walk away usually.  I don’t really think anything of seeing a 55-57 Chevy or a early mustang at a car show. I walk right past stuff like that now, but they always have crowds. I guess it does come down to what you know. 

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This and 64 cents will get you a small Senior cup of coffee at Burger King:

"Rarity...

There are 4 1994 CAPRICE CLASSIC 4 DR vehicles (0.004%) matching your exact options list. There are 27 (0.028%) with at least as many options."

 

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As long as 87 and 93 PON does not become "rare"...

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I also have heard the statement of 1 to 2% of cars per model year exist in the pre war era. To me this would make sense as many were wood framed bodies with a few brands the exception. Using my own car as an example, a 32’ Olds deluxe convertible roadster, 6 cylinder with wood wheels and a total production of 249 units. One to two percent of 249 would be 2.5 to 5 cars. There are two in the NAOC registry, mine being one of them, and another known not in the registry. This would put the survival statement of 1-2% right on the money.

     Now, with the rare statement, what actually are the “considered” parameters in the old car world as it doesn’t seem anyone can really clarify it. Again, using my Olds as an example, would a total production of 249, less than one unit per day, as far as model production it’s the third least made 6 cylinder 32’ model (5 wood wheel convertible roadster and 5 wire wheel have the lowest 6cyl production respectively) be a rare car? There are no known examples of the 5 wheeled roadster models by mine and others extensive research putting my 6 wheeled car next on the list along with the other two. So, would it or should it be considered rare? I’ve had 16cyl caddy and duesenberg owners tell me it is by their own admission but again, the term is subject to ones opinion because there is no defined definition of the word in our hobby. 

   In my opinion, if only one is known, it’s not rare but a one of a kind or only example, trumping the rare term. When there’s 2-8 or so, I don’t think the term rare is a stretch. 

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On 9/30/2018 at 11:45 AM, CarlLaFong said:

I love the ads that state, "Documented Survivor!!! Only one in existence!!!", and there are two more in the same page listing;)

I don't know anyone named Carl LaFong, and if I did know him, I wouldn't admit it! 

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29 minutes ago, marcapra said:

I don't know anyone named Carl LaFong, and if I did know him, I wouldn't admit it! 

He's a railroad man and gets up very early in the morning

 

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In all these cases if a car is truly 'rare', it does NOT does not automatically mean that it is desirable and/or brings huge money.

 

For example, they made 702 1964 Studebaker convertibles, 416 in the South Bend plant and another 286 in the Hamilton plant.  Of those '64 convertibles, 55 of them were 6-cylinder, all produced in Hamilton.  Yes, because its less than 100 units, it does qualify as 'rare' to most people, but as far as desirability, the 8-cylinder Studebakers of any body style in those years are the ones that bring the higher prices for obvious reasons.  Not to mention, Studebaker's OHV six was not exactly a powerhouse, and there were inherent problems with head cracks that the factory never got resolved by the time Studebaker closed down their South Bend plant. Considering a convertible body style is heavier in weight than its sedan counterparts did nothing for performance in the 6 cylinder, and their known engine problems keeps the prices low on them despite them being rare.

 

Craig

Edited by 8E45E (see edit history)

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26 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

In all these cases if a car is truly 'rare', it does NOT does not automatically mean that it is desirable and/or brings huge money.

 

 

I agree completely but it also doesn’t mean the person using the word, as some here have said, is wrong either. I saw a posting for a Toyota FJ40 that said “rare, rust free original condition........”. We all know FJ40’s are not that rare but a totally rust free one is in completely original condition. 98% have rust and most all have been customized at some point in their life.

     Again, using my 32’ Olds DCR as an example, while it should be considered a rare car, with extremely low production/survival numbers, it has a better stronger chassis than a 32’ Ford for example, has more chrome, cabin adjustable shocks, golf bag door, etc., it will never bring what the much more common 32’ Ford will bring. Personally, I prefer owning something much less common than something common regardless of its value. I see Porsche guys go crazy over their cars when there’s 20 of them for sale every day of the year. The rear engine Corvair Corsa appeals to me much more than the Porsche and I can probably own 3-4 to one.

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"Rare" is kind of like "Yankee". To a lot of foreigners, all of us Americans are, going back to that song from the Revolution, "Yankee Doodle". I know a guy in England who imports American cars from the 50s and 60s, and his business is YankTanks. To someone from Alabama, a Yankee is a person from north of the Mason-Dixon Line. To someone from Pennsylvania, a Yankee lives in New England. As the story goes, a guy in Maine was asked if he was a Yankee and he said "No, I'm a Down Easter, Yankees would be the folks in Vermont who eat pancakes for supper".

 

An owner of a 1973 Chevrolet Chevelle at a car show might tell his neighbor it's a rare car, 1 of only 60 with that combination of interior & exterior colors, a 110 HP 307, power moonroof, etc., when it's not a rare car but just has a rare set of options. 1 of only 60 looks better on your display sign than 1 of only 386,737, the number of 1973 Chevelles. Maybe the hypothetical owner of the car could instead be celebrating the popularity of the Chevelle nameplate. GM is better known for their large production numbers, not the micro-sized numbers of Duesenberg(about 1,100 total) or Rolls-Royce(about 3,000 a year these days). The Chevelle owner could brag on that and say he has 1 of only 424,000,000 Post-War GMs. I don't think that's a negative at all...but have yet to see it on a placard at a car show.

 

I've seen an ad for a first-generation Camaro with wood-grain side panels. Now THAT would be something you never see...like a '55 T-Bird with a trailer hitch! 

1967hawaiian.jpeg

Edited by jeff_a (see edit history)

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Thought I’d throw this out there because others have referenced the term rare to cooking. So, there are 5 grades of cooking meat, rare, medium rare, medium, medium well, and well. This means that each category makes up 20% of the total because there’s five (just explaining my math). So if we apply the term rare to our cars like it’s applied to cooking meat, those adds using the word rare are probably correct. An example would be if there were 100 cars originally made and 20 existed then they would all be rare. Another would be 10,000 total production and 2000 cars exist. Anything more than 20% of the original production of those cars cars known would mean they weren’t rare. I know this formula is going to get people going! 

 

I mainly posted this to be tongue tongue in cheek as I don’t think 2000 or even 20 of something is really rare but thought it would be fun to see the reactions.

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I've always interpreted rare to mean too few exist anymore so parts are hard to find and very expensive when you do find them.  In that case the car is near worthless.  Yes?

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23 hours ago, CarlLaFong said:

He's a railroad man and gets up very early in the morning

 

Well, he's a chump.  At least I can retire when I'm 90 on a comfortable income.  Where's that shotgun! 

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On ‎10‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 2:47 PM, jeff_a said:

"Rare" is kind of like "Yankee". To a lot of foreigners, all of us Americans are, going back to that song from the Revolution, "Yankee Doodle". I know a guy in England who imports American cars from the 50s and 60s, and his business is YankTanks. To someone from Alabama, a Yankee is a person from north of the Mason-Dixon Line. To someone from Pennsylvania, a Yankee lives in New England. As the story goes, a guy in Maine was asked if he was a Yankee and he said "No, I'm a Down Easter, Yankees would be the folks in Vermont who eat pancakes for supper".

 

An owner of a 1973 Chevrolet Chevelle at a car show might tell his neighbor it's a rare car, 1 of only 60 with that combination of interior & exterior colors, a 110 HP 307, power moonroof, etc., when it's not a rare car but just has a rare set of options. 1 of only 60 looks better on your display sign than 1 of only 386,737, the number of 1973 Chevelles. Maybe the hypothetical owner of the car could instead be celebrating the popularity of the Chevele nameplate. GM is better known for their large production numbers, not the micro-sized numbers of Duesenberg(about 1,100 total) or Rolls-Royce(about 3,000 a year these days). The Chevelle owner could brag on that and say he has 1 of only 424,000,000 Post-War GMs. I don't think that's a negative at all...but have yet to see it on a placard at a car show.

 

I've seen an ad for a first-generation Camaro with wood-grain side panels. Now THAT would be something you never see...like a '55 T-Bird with a trailer hitch! 

1967hawaiian.jpeg

The 1967 Camaro 'Waikiki.  It remained a one-off concept.  http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/beach-time-1967-camaro-hawaiian-shouldnt-they-have-shot-it-in-honolulu-instead-of-detroit/

 

IF you really want a production convertible with imitation wood panels like that from the late '60's either look for a '68-'69 Chrysler with the Sportsgrain option, or a '68 Mercury Park Lane with the 'Yacht-paneling' option.

 

Craig

Edited by 8E45E (see edit history)

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25 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

The 1967 Camaro 'Waikiki.  It remained a one-off concept.  http://www.curbsideclassic.com/blog/beach-time-1967-camaro-hawaiian-shouldnt-they-have-shot-it-in-honolulu-instead-of-detroit/

 

IF you really want a production convertible with imitation wood panels like that from the late '60's either look for a '69-'69 Chrysler with the Sportsgrain option, or a '68 Mercury Park Lane with the 'Yacht-paneling' option.

 

Craig

Mock Woodgrain on exterior of cars my pet hate , unless one of the 20s sporty ones when they were real wood.

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Growing up in the only state that was occupied the whole war and with some vets still around, "Yankee" to me usually has a pejorative prefix.

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19 minutes ago, Pilgrim65 said:

Mock Woodgrain on exterior of cars my pet hate , unless one of the 20s sporty ones when they were real wood.

I don't care fake woodgrain on the exteriors either.  When the K-car-based LeBaron convertible came out in 1982 with that fake woodgrain, one of the salesman mentioned it comes with its own packing crate.

 

Craig

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Craig, Thanks for the Curbside Classics link that explains what the car was. I didn't know it was a concept car. I imagine someone had this great idea to mock up a Camaro like that and show it around. Someone did a lot of work to modify it, but it's still a crazy idea. I guess this one isn't just rare, it's one of zero in existence. 

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I consider any car that was built in production numbers lower than 1,000 qualifies for being rare off the top of its head.  Also convertibles lived a harder life and some of those that had production figures lower than 5,000 and are 75  years old I consider also rare.  And some few cars, even sedans are rare at around 5,000 cars because the other models of that make during the same year are very large in comparison.  I'm thinking of the 1946 and 1949 Buick Special.  The 1946 is rare because it was introduced very late in the year after WWII.  The 1949 Buick Special is equally rare because it was only built for a short time into 1949 because the new-bodied 1949 and 1950 Buicks were so late being introduced.  So, really, part of this gets down to the eye of the beholder I think.

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20 hours ago, chistech said:

Thought I’d throw this out there because others have referenced the term rare to cooking. So, there are 5 grades of cooking meat, rare, medium rare, medium, medium well, and well. This means that each category makes up 20% of the total because there’s five (just explaining my math). So if we apply the term rare to our cars like it’s applied to cooking meat, those adds using the word rare are probably correct. An example would be if there were 100 cars originally made and 20 existed then they would all be rare. Another would be 10,000 total production and 2000 cars exist. Anything more than 20% of the original production of those cars cars known would mean they weren’t rare. I know this formula is going to get people going! 

 

I mainly posted this to be tongue tongue in cheek as I don’t think 2000 or even 20 of something is really rare but thought it would be fun to see the reactions.

 

I have yet to see a car advertised as "medium rare" though I have seen a few advertised as "well done".

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