tblack Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 It has been awhile but a 1917 buick d45 has found its away to my garage as a winter project. The collection of tags in the back indicate it was well traveled on the Glidden tour between 1953 and at least 1966, it belonged to an important US business person from new to about 1968.The second owner used it for 6 years or so then parked among his stable of cars for the last 45 years. I am now the third owner. I checked out the ring gear before I bought it and it is perfect!!! Engine is stuck from sitting 45 years but I should get that freed up soon. I never hang on these things for too long so if there is interest out there, drop me a PM....Noted the cool poor man's dual cowl phaeton rear window attachment! Ive only seen one other on a 1930 Lincoln 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Looks toi be in good shape. Congratulations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 10, 2018 Author Share Posted September 10, 2018 actually pretty good...missing a fan belt, lunchbox coil and the valves are non original necessitating the lifter arm blocks to be shimmed higher. The carb and manifold look to be off later model using the manifold carb preheat mechanism controlled from the dash. Must have been considered an improvement on the glidden tours of the 50's..other than that everything else is there including the original rear carpets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 I'd like to see some photos of the engine and those modifications. I like used cars! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbbuick22 Posted September 10, 2018 Share Posted September 10, 2018 Welcome back Tom John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibarlaw Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 Me too for a welcome back Tom! No matter what you do you can not escape the spell of the cage valve Buick! Is you old 1923-49 still down the street? Larry D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 The 1923 49 was taken to Florida by my neighbor to his winter home and the day after it arrived he sold it for the full asking price. It was an enjoyable car. Per the 17 Buick I had first thought the manifold and carb were changed out but viewing other 17 buicks on the net they did have the carb heat pre controlled from the dash like my old 1923 did. I clearly see the carb has d44 and d45 casting numbers. The flame thrower from the exhaust to the carb is plugged. The valves are a more modern adaptation as they use wedge keepers. I think I read somewhere in Dean Tryon's newsletter that someone had used valves out of a 283 engine and this could be a similar retrofit. I will let the pb blaster work for a few days before trying to free it up. I'll post more pictures latter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted September 11, 2018 Share Posted September 11, 2018 And another 'Welcome Back' Did you try the line "It followed me home"? 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 11, 2018 Author Share Posted September 11, 2018 My wife was happy to see the Buick come as long as I got rid of the( 2) 1949 Studebaker model 2R16A trucks...these were each 2 ton trucks one a tilting grain body the other a rack body. I got one running before she blew her stack. After selling those and doing an extensive honey do list she said ok to the buick as a project. Probably will get it running and on to something else. I did get it freed up this afternoon so maybe over the weekend I'll get it started for the first time in 45 years 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Welcome back Tom. Good to see you are back in the company of Buicks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simnut Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 Any hints on how to find the history of a car, starting from scratch gents? It can make a difference on the value of a car, could it not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Shaw Posted September 12, 2018 Share Posted September 12, 2018 15 hours ago, tblack said: My wife was happy to see the Buick come as long as I got rid of the( 2) 1949 Studebaker model 2R16A trucks...these were each 2 ton trucks one a tilting grain body the other a rack body. I'd say you married well. Glad to see you are planning to get this old Buick back on the road. You seem to be in good Buick company too. Congratulations... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 13, 2018 Share Posted September 13, 2018 I'm the guy who lives 15 miles from you, in Barkersville. Trying to fix up a barn find E-49, coming along nicely. My valve cages are at the NAPA shop in Saratoga, nobody runs a better shop than Gary, according to.....like.....everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 15, 2018 Author Share Posted September 15, 2018 Morgan like to get together to see your E49. Although freed up I need to go through the fuel system before starting...The vacuum tank looked like it was used as a coffee pot and the grounds were left in it for 50 years! I cleaned it up and looks functional...the gas tank looks equally as murky, I drained it out (5 gallons of 50 year old fuel), dropped the tank and sent it over to shop to be rehabbed. I'll get it back in a couple of weeks. In the waiting period I'll clean up the carb and evaluate a fix for a cracked bow up top. Not planning a full restoration only making it functional and reliable, the patina is fine. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 15, 2018 Share Posted September 15, 2018 I have lots of spare parts that might fit yours. I actually have a whole spare car. How's your clock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 18, 2018 Author Share Posted September 18, 2018 Morgan...nice to have met you in person the other day in Barkersville...your E-49's will keep you busy and you do have lots of extra parts. As I need a belt for my D-45, it was interesting to see you used a NAPA Gates belt 060295 6PK750.I found one on line and hopefully it will fit mine. As I look at installing the belt in advance if seems that the the ringed fan is too large to slip the belt over..seems as though the easiest way is to remove the radiator, fan and then install the belt. Can anyone weigh in on this with any tricks, 2 piece belts etc. I'm waiting on the fuel tank and the belt before firing the car over. I cleaned up the carb no surprises but at some point it would be good to replace the float. Anyone making floats out there? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 Tom, Greg Lange in Saginaw has floats. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, tblack said: As I look at installing the belt in advance if seems that the the ringed fan is too large to slip the belt over..seems as though the easiest way is to remove the radiator, fan and then install the belt. Can anyone weigh in on this with any tricks, 2 piece belts etc. My radiator was out at the time, so I don't know how I'd go about doing the job with the radiator in. The bolt that holds the fan on is reverse thread and if you can remove it and if there's enough room between the fan and the radiator, to move the fan forward enough to slip the belt in, it might work. It's a pain getting the radiator out, I had to remove the headlights and the hood, seems like a lot of work to replace a fan belt. . . Edited September 19, 2018 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted September 19, 2018 Share Posted September 19, 2018 Tom, Can you remove the fan tensioner pivot point and get the belt in from the back side so to speak? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 19, 2018 Author Share Posted September 19, 2018 I went the long route radiator, lights, hood and fan...but a good chance to clean up the front of the engine....good news I drained 2-1/2 gallons of new full strength anti freeze so the radiator nor anything else is leaking. If the system were dry I would be worried about the radiator forming scale. Larry thanks for the tip on the float I'll follow up on that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian_Heil Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 Talking fan belts. Years ago, my 1923 came with a brand new leather belt. Looked great. Fun to watch that metal staple seam go round and round. First all day tour in the rain and the belt stretched and slipped and got 'thrown' and bent my fan. Next stop was the NAPA store and a wide, flat, modern, 'rubber' serpentine belt. Not very long, and the part number has worn off long ago, but I pointed to the one I wanted hanging on the wall and we matched it to the leather one by eye and it has been running without incident for 20+ years. Made me wonder how they made the old leather belts work back in the day. Maybe today's cows are not as waterproof? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonMicheletti Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 The cows were OK back then. Leather belts drove all kinds of things. In your case, that "new" belt probably was NOS. The "O " being old. "O on anything like that = junk. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 20, 2018 Share Posted September 20, 2018 I still have the leather belt my car came with. It was 80 years old and broken, and sitting on the fan pulley. It probably was good 80 years ago, but after 80 years of sitting there it dried out and tightened and broke just from sitting there. I took it to NAPA and they sized it up, and gave me the rubber one Tom saw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 21, 2018 Author Share Posted September 21, 2018 The belt arrived and I was excited to get the car back together... but .... when the belt was cinched tight the fan ring was directly under the upper hose for the radiator and barely touched it. As the radiator was recored in the past it is possible that it lost a little clearance...so I found a slightly shorter belt that should work...if it works I'll post the Dayco numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 I have the 242 engine, yours is the 225. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Schramm Posted September 21, 2018 Share Posted September 21, 2018 On 9/20/2018 at 10:24 AM, Brian_Heil said: Talking fan belts. Years ago, my 1923 came with a brand new leather belt. Looked great. Fun to watch that metal staple seam go round and round. First all day tour in the rain and the belt stretched and slipped and got 'thrown' and bent my fan. Next stop was the NAPA store and a wide, flat, modern, 'rubber' serpentine belt. Not very long, and the part number has worn off long ago, but I pointed to the one I wanted hanging on the wall and we matched it to the leather one by eye and it has been running without incident for 20+ years. Made me wonder how they made the old leather belts work back in the day. Maybe today's cows are not as waterproof? I also have a NAPA serpentine belt on my truck. The only way to go IMO and others that drive their cars & trucks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 22, 2018 Share Posted September 22, 2018 Tom, give me a call on the day you start this car up, I want to be there and maybe video it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 23, 2018 Author Share Posted September 23, 2018 My 2nd fan belt is here on monday and the gas tank maybe late next week....then ready to fire it over and maybe take a ride......I found a pair of matching 1918 NY plates for your car I give them to you then. I put up the top..it needs some repair and the side curtains are in pretty good shape. Last evidence that the car ran was a 1976 car show tag. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 23, 2018 Share Posted September 23, 2018 I'd rather have the Ohio plate, as this car was in Ohio from 1917 to 2004 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted September 24, 2018 Author Share Posted September 24, 2018 You are welcome to the ohio plate but it looks as though it is a 1916. There was some confusion when this car was first registered and it was registered as a 1916....the numbers though clearly place it in 1917. Another delay today as I found the upper radiator hose connection is pretty rotted away so it is off to the shop to join the gas tank for some rehab!!! These things take time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted September 25, 2018 Share Posted September 25, 2018 Right now it has a 1926 Illinois plate on it. I broke the spare tire holder trying to straighten it, so I used the spare tire holder from the other car, and it had that plate on it. It's been on that spare tire holder since 1926, the year they abandoned that car in a wheat field in Illinois. Did you get that push rod to fit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted October 8, 2018 Author Share Posted October 8, 2018 I was wondering if the back windshield was period correct. Apparently it is "JH" Tonneau Shield Co Inc 518-522 W 5th St New York NY pat Feb 28, 1912 June 1, 1920 Hoping to start the car soon as all the parts and pieces are back in place Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted October 9, 2018 Author Share Posted October 9, 2018 Well I got it started today but it will take some work for it to run decently. I was looking for a project and I guess I got one. I had unstuck 2 valves and 1 of them restuck. Need to look at all the valves but the cages are really stuck they have been soaking in PB Blaster for at least 3 weeks no go. I'm going to pull the upper block and then drive them out. Pending on what I see I may look to find proper valves and springs, maybe new rocker stands and see if the push rods are original. The valves presently are modern valves with wedge split keepers. The rocker stands are shimmed with 3 washers on each stud and 2 of the 6 rocker stands have repair welds. I'd like to return to original...on the 225 engine for 16 and 17 all the cages are the same size. In 18 they went to 2 size cages with the 246 engine. Were the smaller of these cages the same size as the 16 and 17. If so are they interchangeable. Do the smaller cages on 18 to 23 the same and would they work? Cage valves are great concept but when they are stuck after 50+ years of sitting it is a challenge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted October 10, 2018 Share Posted October 10, 2018 (edited) On 10/9/2018 at 7:15 PM, tblack said: I'd like to return to original...on the 225 engine for 16 and 17 all the cages are the same size. In 18 they went to 2 size cages with the 246 engine. Were the smaller of these cages the same size as the 16 and 17. If so are they interchangeable. Do the smaller cages on 18 to 23 the same and would they work? Cage valves are great concept but when they are stuck after 50+ years of sitting it is a challenge. On my 242 engine from '18 the intake cages are 2.065 inches and the exhaust are 1.685, don't know if that helps if they aren't coming out. My buffum tool is broken, all I can say is, I got my cages out by soaking them in 50/50 mix of acetone and brake fluid. Edited October 12, 2018 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted October 10, 2018 Author Share Posted October 10, 2018 10 hours ago, Morgan Wright said: On my 242 engine from '18 the intake cages are 2.06 inches and the exhaust are 1.70, don't know if that helps if they aren't coming out. My buffum tool is broken, all I can say is, I got my cages out by soaking them in 50/50 mix of acetone and brake fluid. 10 hours ago, Morgan Wright said: On my 242 engine from '18 the intake cages are 2.06 inches and the exhaust are 1.70, don't know if that helps if they aren't coming out. My buffum tool is broken, all I can say is, I got my cages out by soaking them in 50/50 mix of acetone and brake fluid. Morgan thanks for the info ...I also spoke to Terry Weigand last night. on the 16 and 17 all cages were the same smaller size for both intake and exhaust...Starting with 18 through the end of the cage valve era in 23 they are as you say small exhaust (same as 16 and 17) and larger intake. Per Terry If I can aquire exhaust valves and cages from 18 to 23 then I could use them as either intakes or exhausts in the 16 or 17. This narrows it down a bit. I am pulling the upper cylinder block and will drive the valves and cages out. Found this works without damaging the old parts. Also I get a chance to inspect the pistons, rings and get an initial" feel" on the connecting rods and wrist pins with the cylinder block off and the pistons dangling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted October 11, 2018 Author Share Posted October 11, 2018 I got the upper cylinder block off, Drove out the pistons and cages without further damage. Pistons stand tall and bearings seem tight so I'm not looking for trouble on that end. I re-aquired a 23 engine and will compare the cages and valve set up. If I stay with the valves as boogered together in the 50's then I need 2 new ones or I could take 2 valves out of the 23 and group them in one cylinder and adjust the rocker tower for that new set up. #5 cylinder has a groove worn in the cylinder from some drifting wrist pin some where in its past. That problem seems to have been corrected and the oil it might burn was dealt with by using a dual electrode plug in that cylinder. In an ideal world this engine might get rebuilt but it will work for my purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted October 12, 2018 Share Posted October 12, 2018 I used my more accurate caliper and found that the exhaust valve cages for the 242 engine are 1.685 inches diameter. I also have a couple extra bronze rings as Terry sent me 8 and I only needed 6. Let me know if you can use the cages. They are in the spare engine which you saw, it's also a 242 engine from 1918. Obviously you can't use the intake cages. The springs, according to Gary, are too rusty to use. It seems a previous owner cleaned off the black oxide and spray painted the springs red. An idiotic move. Black oxide prevents rust, red paint flakes off and rust happens. You can use your old springs I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted October 14, 2018 Author Share Posted October 14, 2018 Morgan thanks for the offer I'll see what's in the 23 engine as supposedly ...the exhaust valves are the same. keep you posted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tblack Posted October 15, 2018 Author Share Posted October 15, 2018 I laid everything out and measured. The 1923 exhaust valve cages are not interchangeable with 1917. They are of proper diameter top 1.68 Inches but their length is from upper bevel to to lower valve seat is 1/4" longer than the 1917 cages. The locking nut would not screw down far enough to hold the the cage in properly. This in itself could be overcome with some machining but the valve stem diameter is considerably larger and the spring pressure is probably too great for the 17 rocker towers and pushrods to handle. Using the bathroom scale it takes 60 lbs to open the the 23 valve and 30lbs to open the 17 valves. With that being said I have 2 cages that the valve guides are broken. Both of these each have bent valves and one has a mangled spring. Seems as though my earlier suspicion that the valves they used years ago were exhaust valves from a chevy 283 engine might be correct. Anyone have two 16 or 17 valve cages?? If so I think I can make them work continuing with the 283 set up. Stems on the 283 valves are .341 not sure what the original valves were . The stems on the 23 valves are .375 Also does anyone know what the spring pressures were for 16 and 17? Any thoughts on whether the old cages with broken guides could be refitted with 283 valve guides?? Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morgan Wright Posted October 16, 2018 Share Posted October 16, 2018 (edited) The exhaust valve stems are .368 to .369 thick on my 1918 242 engine Intake are .383 but you don't need that info Edited October 17, 2018 by Morgan Wright (see edit history) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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