mercer09

SO TESLA IS TANKING....YOUR THOUGHTS

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If I read the following article correctly, the $35,000 base model Tesla Model 3 will not be available for 6 months (ie 1st Quarter 2019).

The current Model 3 starting price is $49,000. IMHO, at that starting price, the Model 3 is not available to the more average incomes.

Even less so with the reduced tax credit effective January 1, 2019. 

 

Lest some people here forget, Tesla started taking reservations (and money)  for the Model 3 starting in March of 2016. In 6 months that will be almost  THREE YEARS that people who signed up for the "affordable" Tesla will have been waiting. No wonder why some of those people have run out of patience while they watched Tesla make and sell the more expensive Model 3s all the while Tesla holding onto their hard earned deposit money. 

 

Tesla's $35,000 Model 3 is still coming and with a new battery module design

 

 

Charlie

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John,

regarding Delorean and the cocaine. I believe the gov backed him into a corner and desperate people do desperate things. Not saying what he did was right, but I dont agree with entrapment.

 

Under the right amount of pressure, I believe everyone is capable of murdering someone. Humans only have the ability to endure so much..........

 

WACO also comes to mind, but completely off topic.

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Tesla started delivery, slowly, of Model 3 in July of 2017.  When they took deposits for the car at a refundable $1000 each down payment they had over 400,000 people place deposits.  I can’t think of any modern car that even comes close to that number.  Of the 400,000 it’s inevitable that people who placed a deposit will over time change their mind.  There is no provision to factor into that number the people who have now joined the ranks to be put on the list.  Even at $49,000 this is still a more entry level than a model S and in line with many EV prices from the competition.  The link you provided does indicate the $35,000 model is coming as the battery prices drop due to improvements in their manufacturing process.

 

As countrytraveler indicates, cars are indeed being shipped to delivery points.  Elon Musk personally was at one of those delivery places to prep the cars and welcome the new owners.  With all his recent antics in the news that can be eithergood or bad for business.  Regardless of all the naysayers, cars are out there and they are being purchased. 

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This is a long thread and about everything has already been said but I thought I would add my 2 cents.  I hope I don't offend anyone. Just expressing my opinion about electric cars that are being sold today. :)

 

I have never understood why anyone would want an electric car in their current form. Tesla or otherwise. They are not an economical car. They are too expensive to buy due to their complex technology,  they are very expensive to maintain if you count the cost of battery replacement, and if you think you are saving the environment by driving one you are fooling yourself. There should be a sign at all of those squeaky clean charging stations, even the free ones, that show a photo of what is powering that charging station.

 

This power plant was the site of one of the largest environmental disasters in the history of the U.S.  It cost about 1 Billion dollars to clean it up.  We are collectively funding these plants even if the charging stations are free. If you want to see more of these plants, buy more electric cars.  

kingston_steam_plant 1-19-16.jpg

 

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3 minutes ago, Ronnie said:

This is a long thread and about everything has already been said but I thought I would add my 2 cents.  I hope I don't offend anyone. Just expressing my opinion about electric cars that are being sold today. :)

 

I have never understood why anyone would want an electric car in their current form. Tesla or otherwise. They are not an economical car. They are too expensive to buy due to their complex technology,  they are very expensive to maintain if you count the cost of battery replacement, and if you think you are saving the environment by driving one you are fooling yourself. There should be a sign at all of those squeaky clean charging stations, even the free ones, that show a photo of what is powering that charging station.

 

This power plant was the site of one of the largest environmental disasters in the history of the U.S.  It cost about 1 Billion dollars to clean it up.  We are collectively funding these plants even if the charging stations are free. If you want to see more of these plants, buy more electric cars.  

kingston_steam_plant 1-19-16.jpg

 

 

@Ronnie even it you charge an EV from the most dirties coal powered electricity, it is still more efficient and less polluting than a petrol power vehicle.

 

Why? A petrol powered vehicle only converts 25-30% of the fuel to movement, where as an electric motor is about 90% but probably down to 50-60% with losses in transmission of the power to the charging point,  losses in charging the batteries  and in delivering the power from the batteries to the electric motor/s.

 

But the future will bring more and more renewable energy production to the grid.

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Charging stations:  The wife and I go to the same sea-side resort every year, owned by a high-end hotel chain.  It caters to folks well above the median national income and it is wonderful, but pricey.  3 or 4 years ago, they installed Tesla charging stations in the parking garage in desirable, close-in spots.  In the last 2 years, we have seen a Tesla or two in that garage area, but in the charging stations there would be most anything - accept cars that needed a cord, particularly as the evening wore on when parking spots become scarce.  Tesla’s were effectively blocked from access to allow their vehicles to be charged.

 

I’ll cut to the chase here; how long will it be until the owners of a gas fueled vehicle and a Tesla engage in some sort of headline-making, police involved altercation over that parking spot(s) carved out of a parking garage that have now been reserved as Tesla ‘charging stations’ ?

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9 hours ago, capngrog said:

 

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the load on the U.S. grid has been essentially flat since about 2006.  Assuming that the U.S. population has increased significantly during this period, this means a drop in per capita electric energy consumption.  Electrically-powered vehicles will shift the demand from liquid fuels to electricity, meaning an increase on the load/demand on the U.S. electrical grid.  At least that's the way I understand the below graph:

 

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/0?agg=2,0,1&fuel=vvg&geo=g&sec=g&linechart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.M&columnchart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.M&map=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M&freq=M&start=200101&end=201806&chartindexed=0&ctype=linechart&ltype=pin&rtype=s&pin=&rse=0&maptype=0

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

Hey Grog,

I am shocked by that graph. I had seen the LED lighting had such a large impact on the demand of these high rise commercial buildings I was under the assumption that these changes were going on all  across the country. Very interesting thanks for bringing it up and sharing it. 

 

 

4 hours ago, mercer09 said:

John,

regarding Delorean and the cocaine. I believe the gov backed him into a corner and desperate people do desperate things. Not saying what he did was right, but I dont agree with entrapment.

 

Under the right amount of pressure, I believe everyone is capable of murdering someone. Humans only have the ability to endure so much.........

 

Hey Mercer,

I agree he was set up, but I thought  Delorean was a much smarter man than that. To get involved with drugs with that kind of money common sense should say those guys are very capable of murdering, and if something goes down it is going to be a big prison sentence.  The famous scene in the Godfather, even though it is fiction (based on some truths) Don Corleone wanted nothing to do with drugs for the problems it brings with it. I heard something about Elon Musk was smoking a joint on some webcast, that is a far cry from conspiracy to distribute narcotics.  What Musk is doing to devalue his stock is wrong  and I don't agree with it all all.   

 

13 hours ago, countrytravler said:

They are working on one for the Indy.  Big Daddy has a rail that does over 200 in a 1/4/ The car I rode in car blow the doors off a HellCat straight and cornering. 

 

Hey Traveler,

I have a house near Garlits place in Ocala FL This past winter I took a friend of mine who was visiting to visit the museum. That day Don Garlits was doing a tour and said that the NHRA banned his electric car because they were afraid that they would loose automotive sponsors. Thinking about it I can see that becoming a problem.

 

I personally have no desire to ever own a Tesla or any other electric car for that matter, it jut does not fit my lifestyle and it is just too much of a change, If we look at a few generations younger then us they have to have a charged cell phone and always will. They are already used to plugging in things, so plugging in a car will be just another part of their life.

This has been a very POLARIZING subject (pun intended)  let's just try to leave the politics out of it. Just think of all the technology that came from these cars. 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)

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Trains run on electric power. They have its own charging station. Diesel runs the generators, in turn, produces the electricity for the electric motors on the axle. 

 

 

 

 

1024px-Rotary-Converter (1).jpg

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8 hours ago, John348 said:

 

Hey Grog,

I am shocked by that graph. I had seen the LED lighting had such a large impact on the demand of these high rise commercial buildings I was under the assumption that these changes were going on all  across the country. Very interesting thanks for bringing it up and sharing it. 

 

 

Hey John,

 

I think that LED lighting and other more efficient electrical devices/appliances have actually had a large impact on overall electrical demand, hence the flat demand line in the face of rising population and proliferation of electrical gadgets.

 

As to high rise buildings with constant occupancy (both class and numbers), I'll bet there have been significant savings with the new electrical devices.  Overall, we in this Country are much more efficient in out energy use, what with the mandated efficiencies of electrical devices/appliances and improved building insulation etc.

 

The point I was trying to make is that there will probably be a significant increase in demand on the overall electrical grid as electric-powered vehicles become more common.  Of course, technology might improve to such an extent that vehicle roof-top solar chargers will be able to supply a significant portion of the power required by the vehicle. 

 

Cheers,

Grog

 

 

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23 hours ago, capngrog said:

As to high rise buildings with constant occupancy (both class and numbers), I'll bet there have been significant savings with the new electrical devices.  Overall, we in this Country are much more efficient in out energy use, what with the mandated efficiencies of electrical devices/appliances and improved building insulation etc.

 

 

The other side of the coin, is most electronic devices are powered up 24/7, therefore, still consuming some electricity.  Even though they have an 'off' switch, power is still retained within them for the memory, and alarms, etc.  Back in the old days, only refrigerators and electric clocks ran 24/7.  TV's, radios, appliances, and office equipment in the workplace were truly 'off' when they were not in use.

 

Craig

Edited by 8E45E (see edit history)

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And most every electronic device that runs on low voltage internally and plugs into the wall has a little transformer internally or externally (wall warts I call them) that is never disconnected from the AC line (Mains). Feel them, they are warm, so that is wasted electric power (unless it is heating season ?).

 

This is way I never want to install those cute duplex receptacles with the built in USB jacks. Always consuming some power.  I do unplug my wall wart after charging my phone, tablet, whatever.

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12 hours ago, countrytravler said:

Trains run on electric power. They have its own charging station. Diesel runs the generators, in turn, produces the electricity for the electric motors on the axle. 

 

 

 

 

1024px-Rotary-Converter (1).jpg

"Daddy, what does THIS button do?"

 

Craig

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Just a couple of shots, first, why would anyone want an electric vehicle? This would have been a great question to ask about petrol vehicles at the very early part of the twentieth century. Second, about the electricity grid, well technology is changing very quickly. Indiana has dropped to 8th for coal production. As the grid continues to diversify there will be more opportunities for smaller production facilities, even home production because of better distribution control and affordable equipment. We are at  a cusp like the one that occurred in the late nineteenth century and early twentieth. It is indeed a great time to be alive. 

 

As for Tesla, its namesake, a not so poor immigrant who with the help of Westinghouse took on Edison, harnessed the power of Niagara Falls, lit the 1893 World's Fair in Chicago (even though Edison refused to sell them any bulbs) and won the, "Battle of the Currents" which is why we now have an electric grid based upon AC which can be transmitted over long distances instead of the localized DC power stations Edison championed. History is repeating itself only a bit different. While I cannot afford a Tesla automobile I damn sure support what they are doing. 

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I notice generic electic vehicle commercials running in prime time. The fine print mentions VW. Till now tesla was little more than a pimple on the butt of the major makers. If the majors put on a full court press in electrics i,m guessing tesla will end up being a niche player or road kill........bob

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Mercedes just announced the availability of their Tesla Killer. You get a real Mercedes 100% electric beginning at $54k. You get the backing of a real world wide automotive company with over 100 years of service. Unlike Tesla who is running out of money and is on a path to being broke in 6 months. Mercedes will be around long after Tesla is a distant bad memory.. Remember how many millions Obama poured into Fisker and how long did they last. The poor duped customers that bought Fiskers are now holding a bag of no value, the same will be true with Tesla after they go belly up.

 

Jaguar has just offered a full electric in the same price range as the Mercedes, yet another Tesla killer. Just try and get you deposit refunded for non produced and unavailable Tesla cars, fat chance!!!

 

Want a quality electric with decent resale value, buy it from a reliable well financed manufacture, Mercedes, Jaguar and Ford has one almost ready for market. Don't waste you money on a company like Tesla with non existent future financing.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy

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15 minutes ago, brasscarguy said:

You get the backing of a real world wide automotive company with over 100 years of service. Unlike Tesla who is running out of money and is on a path to being broke in 6 months........................

Mercedes will be around long after Tesla is a distant bad memory..................................................................................................the same will be true with Tesla after they go belly up.

 

Jaguar has just offered a full electric in the same price range as the Mercedes, yet another Tesla killer. Just try and get you deposit refunded for non produced and unavailable Tesla cars, fat chance!!!

 

Want a quality electric with decent resale value, buy it from a reliable well financed manufacture, Mercedes, Jaguar and Ford has one almost ready for market. Don't waste you money on a company like Tesla with non existent future financing.

 

just sayin'

 

brasscarguy

 

 

Hey  Brasscarguy,

By any chance do you loan out your crystal ball? seems like you are pretty certain about the future, I just need it for a few games this Weekend, I will give you 10% if it is certain as you make it seem , even predicting the resale market! pretty darn good I just want it for three games, and I will never have to ask you again,

 

maybe some people refuse to buy foreign cars.... just sayin

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@brasscarguy How many electric cars has MB and Jaguar have built? Where will they get the batteries?

 

 

If Tesla did not make electric cars, the others would be stalling for decades more.

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Having been in the automotive business for nearly 50 years I have a bit of an insite, you know the old adage if its to good to be true it prolly is.. However the most telling signs are as follows.

 

Tesla has no dealers they are all company stores, therefore all personnel are company employees.  As advertised on line their techs are abandoning the sinking ship . Hardly a day goes by that we don't get an on line listing for Tesla techs looking for work. That is a very basic premise of financial troubles. Next the Federal government is now involved in a congressional investigation regarding stock manipulation. In fact check it out there are 2 investigations regarding financial practices  on going. So adding all those things together plus the constant delays in production plus the fact that the "trades" are chattering about vendors being forced to negotiate lower prices or not get paid for the monies already owed, just adds yet another nail in the coffin. Not an investment I would be making in this climate. Oh just another thought the stock has dropped damn near thru the floor from its overinflated highs a while back.

 

just an old mans opinion,

 

brasscarguy

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12 minutes ago, brasscarguy said:

just an old mans opinion,

 

brasscarguy

 

 

So you don't have a crystal ball! Darn you were pretty convincing about the future, I had my hopes up, only to find out it was just an opinion...I'm let down.

 

Also you might want to check that info I believe stock manipulation is an SEC investigation, (at least the were)  which is not Congressional 

 

Edited by John348 (see edit history)

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While all the other brands talk about bringing cars to market the only brand shipping thousands of cars to customers right now is Tesla.  A hard fact to overlook.  As for the technicians, there are no oil changes to do, no engine teardowns,  no check engine lights to deal with just simple repairs or software updates to install.  A whole different world compared to gasoline autos.

 

Tesla owners are like Apple products users, there might be other choices out there but they stay with the company they like.

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And, where are the MB supercharged stations located?  Is MB investing in places to charge their cars?  That’s where new to market EV makers have a lot of work to do.

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Tesla and Panasonic jointly manufacture batteries at the factory in Nevada.  Over 3000 people are employed at it.  

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4 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Tesla and Panasonic jointly manufacture batteries at the factory in Nevada.  Over 3000 people are employed at it.  

 

We're splitting hairs, but Panasonic makes the batteries, Tesla assembles them into a pack. The idea that the factory in Nevada is somehow a competitive advantage for Tesla is misplaced. Panasonic will sell batteries to, partner with, pretty much any car company that wants to do business with them.

panasonic-coop-1140x498_tcm-17-1219677.j

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