So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

[mercer09]

John,

hints of Delorean and corruption..................?

[charlier]

Time for Tesla to start looking in their rear view mirrors. Someone else is coming up behind them darn Quick.

 

The Audi e-tron SUV is an electric shot at Tesla

 

Looks like Tesla has more competition to worry about.....

 

VW Announces Plans to Get 27 Electric Vehicle Models into Production by 2022

 

Charlie

[countrytravler]

I haul Tesla cars out of Freemont. They are building on the factory. They are 3 months back order. Also, he has hired a bunch NASA engineers from Cape Canaveral area. Already relocated about 10 families to Bellvue WA area. These guys are in the 6 digits for pay. had the tour of the car plant and the plant that is building the rockets. The 2 factories are mind-blowing. Have a customer that is buying all the totaled Teslas that he can find. He converts them to gas cars. He gave me a ride in an 80s Datsun Z and when he stepped on it, I could not get out of the seat. Runs 9s in a 1/4 and gets about 600 miles before a charge.

[mercer09]

country

 

they are always back ordered, because they cant produce them.

 

so many deposits returned, because people dont have the patience............

[8E45E]

9 hours ago, charlier said:

Time for Tesla to start looking in their rear view mirrors. Someone else is coming up behind them darn Quick.

 

The Audi e-tron SUV is an electric shot at Tesla

 

Looks like Tesla has more competition to worry about.....

 

VW Announces Plans to Get 27 Electric Vehicle Models into Production by 2022

 

Charlie

Definitely!  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/tesla-model-s-vs-jaguar-i-pace-ev-twin-test

 

Craig

[Restorer32]

At Greenwich last year I saw a Tesla 4 door concept van with traditional front doors but gull wing rear doors. What a turkey, especially with the rear doors open. 

[8E45E]

Just now, Restorer32 said:

At Greenwich last year I saw a Tesla 4 door concept van with traditional front doors but gull wing rear doors. What a turkey, especially with the rear doors open. 

That is NOT a 'concept'; its the Model-X crossover.

 

Craig

[Restorer32]

I'd bet in a one on one test the 1918 Rauch and Lang Electric we are restoring would be more reliable than a Tesla. The R&L was on the road for 20 years. Would a Tesla still be running and maintainable after 20 years?

[Restorer32]

1 minute ago, 8E45E said:

That is NOT a 'concept'; its the Model-X crossover.

 

Craig

 

Apologies if you own one but in my opinion it is UGLY.

[8E45E]

I DON'T own one.  If I want an electric vehicle, I'll search for one of these before buying a modern one:  http://forum.studebakerdriversclub.com/showthread.php?107550-Award

 

Craig

[8E45E]

28 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

The R&L was on the road for 20 years.

Any record on how many times the batteries were changed in those 20 years?

 

Craig

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

 

Apologies if you own one but in my opinion it is UGLY.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Not too shabby looking in my opinion 

 

[billorn]

I like how it looks and its as fast or faster than a Ferrarri. For a while anyways. If its not for you thats ok. FOr me someone who doesnt drive very far a electric car makes sense. Maybe see what they bring on the used market in a few years.

[padgett]

Still have not seen anything on just how many electric cars the grid can support ? Have plenty of gas stations so no problem for a new gas models ? Of course if a Tesla wins the Indy 500 that would be a real statement.

ps have had two Cadillacs and contemplating a third once they depreciate a bit more.

Edited September 20, 2018 by padgett (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

6 hours ago, mercer09 said:

country

 

they are always back ordered, because they cant produce them.

 

so many deposits returned, because people dont have the patience............

Production is 1000 cars a day? l have been hauling the Tesla for 1 year and it's the same today as when I started a year ago. Average 90 day back orders. What other car line has the same?

Edited September 20, 2018 by countrytravler (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

55 minutes ago, padgett said:

Still have not seen anything on just how many electric cars the grid can support ? Have plenty of gas stations so no problem for a new gas models ? Of course if a Tesla wins the Indy 500 that would be a real statement.

ps have had two Cadillacs and contemplating a third once they depreciate a bit more.

They are working on one for the Indy.  Big Daddy has a rail that does over 200 in a 1/4/ The car I rode in car blow the doors off a HellCat straight and cornering. 

[mercer09]

if you look at elons stats, he promised a lot more.

 

his promises are not being kept and now sec scandal with his stock manipulation...........

 

not saying these arent "nice" people, but the co is not operating as stated.

 

ps there is not a huge profit in making cars. One of the worst business models one can get into- including restaurants!

[MCHinson]

I don't know much about Tesla cars. I have avoided commenting on this subject. I guess at the risk of crossing the line into politics, If they are producing 1,000 cars a day, and the federal tax incentive for the cars is $7,500 each, that means our federal government is subsidizing this operation to the tune of $7,500,000 per day. I don't think that is a good idea.

[Restorer32]

4 hours ago, 8E45E said:

Any record on how many times the batteries were changed in those 20 years?

 

Craig

No idea but it just used commonly available car batteries, 7 twelve volt or 14 six volt. No idea what batteries cost back then.

[Restorer32]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Not too shabby looking in my opinion 

 

 

Looks like a sea gull with the doors up.

[TerryB]

They are called falcon wing doors, the bird look is intentional.

[padgett]

And Tesla alone is adding at least 250,000 cars a year (is that business days or calendar days ?).

 

Only figures I found were from greenies who say the annual electric production is plenty. I have no doubt that is true but assumes constant demand and on a cold winter day when masses of commuters get home and crank up the stove, heater, and plug the car in (remember Reddy Kilowatt and the all electric home ), what does it look like then ?

 

Can see a future where home current is limited to about 50A and people with electric cars need battery banks at home that can trickle charge for 24 hours and is just swapped at night.

 

Heck some places in Florida have brownouts when everyone gets home in the evening and cranks the AC up.

 

The "falcon wing" (Mecedes probably has copyrighted Gullwing) reminds me of 300SL Coupes driving around town during the day with the doors up trying to cool off (before AC).

 

ps 7 grp 31 AGMs @ U$172 ea = U$1204.00

 

pps 8 pages on a car with radials and AC, wow.

Edited September 20, 2018 by padgett (see edit history)

[TerryB]

1 hour ago, MCHinson said:

I don't know much about Tesla cars. I have avoided commenting on this subject. I guess at the risk of crossing the line into politics, If they are producing 1,000 cars a day, and the federal tax incentive for the cars is $7,500 each, that means our federal government is subsidizing this operation to the tune of $7,500,000 per day. I don't think that is a good idea.

That incentive applies to buyers of any electric car brand, not just Tesla.  Tesla does not receive the money.  There is a production limit tied to the tax rebate and when that number is achieved the rebate no longer applies to that manufacturers car.  With Model 3 production demand Tesla is quickly nearing that number.  Others like Nissan have a long way to go to reach that point.  If Audi, MB, or anybody else shows up with a totally electric vehicle the incentive will apply to them as well.

 

 

Edited September 20, 2018 by TerryB
Took out political content. (see edit history)

[charlier]

 

5 minutes ago, TerryB said:

That incentive applies to buyers of any electric car brand, not just Tesla.  Tesla does not receive the money.  There is a production limit tied to the tax rebate and when that number is achieved the rebate no longer applies to that manufacturers car.  With Model 3 production demand Tesla is quickly nearing that number.  Others like Nissan have a long way to go to reach that point.  If Audi, MB, or anybody else shows up with a totally electric vehicle the incentive will apply to them as well.

 

 

 

FYI, Tesla confirmed in July (after delaying commenting on this for some time) that they hit the threshold of 200,000 vehicles so the phase-out has begun. This is another reason why people are cancelling their orders of Model 3s since they will potentially get less or no tax credit due to the production delays of the Model 3 and how the tax credit works. Since Tesla needs the volume sales of the Model 3 to help solve it's cash and profitability problems, one has to wonder just how much of an impact the phase out of the tax credit will have on Tesla should Model 3 sales fall off as some so-called experts predict.

 

Tesla confirms hitting federal tax credit threshold

 

Charlie

[8E45E]

1 hour ago, Restorer32 said:

 

Looks like a sea gull with the doors up.

Don't they all; regardless who makes its, Tesla, Mercedes, Bricklin, et al? 

 

They're called gullwing doors for good (read: descriptive) reason!!

 

Craig

[John348]

4 hours ago, TerryB said:

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  Not too shabby looking in my opinion 

 

 

With the doors closed it looks like every other crossover I saw on the road today. The silhouette of the open doors looks like the Tesla logo

 

 

3 hours ago, padgett said:

Still have not seen anything on just how many electric cars the grid can support ? Have plenty of gas stations so no problem for a new gas models ? Of course if a Tesla wins the Indy 500 that would be a real statement.

ps have had two Cadillacs and contemplating a third once they depreciate a bit more.

 

Actually the load on the grid has gone down tremendously in the last 7 years. Commercial lighting and a large majority of municipal lights are now LED which has reduced the load tremendously, also factor in the new desktop computers are not drawing that much at all . Those LED lighting swaps were all federally subsidized, with huge tax incentives and penalties if they did not comply. All  the neon lights on Broadway have been LED for several years, before I retired several of the buildings in Times Square in NYC were our clients,  and after the LED lighting swap they were drawing about 1/2 the power they did the year prior They were all forty to fifty story commercial office buildings each with 10- 12 4,000 amp services. So I think now there is plenty of room on the grid in many places in the country.  

ps I don't know why you felt the need to tell us about your purchasing used Cadillacs, but being you brought it up,  I have had four Cadillacs and am ready for my fifth now........ but I only buy new I rather take the depreciation then deal with problems with my everyday transportation 

 

  

5 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

I'd bet in a one on one test the 1918 Rauch and Lang Electric we are restoring would be more reliable than a Tesla. The R&L was on the road for 20 years. Would a Tesla still be running and maintainable after 20 years?

 

You would really make that bet? You honestly feel that the R&L is more reliable then a new Tesla ????  Lead acid batteries and all.....mmmmm 

 

20 hours ago, mercer09 said:

John,

hints of Delorean and corruption..................?

 

Yes and no, Delorean was looking to put up money to buy cocaine to make money "save his company"  Tesla is being accused of intentionally damaging his companies reputation forcing a sell off  in order to buy back stock at a lower price

[CarNucopia]

12 hours ago, countrytravler said:

I haul Tesla cars out of Freemont. They are building on the factory. They are 3 months back order. Also, he has hired a bunch NASA engineers from Cape Canaveral area. Already relocated about 10 families to Bellvue WA area. These guys are in the 6 digits for pay. had the tour of the car plant and the plant that is building the rockets. The 2 factories are mind-blowing. Have a customer that is buying all the totaled Teslas that he can find. He converts them to gas cars. He gave me a ride in an 80s Datsun Z and when he stepped on it, I could not get out of the seat. Runs 9s in a 1/4 and gets about 600 miles before a charge.

 

 

 

 

Interesting. Does your friend convert gas cars to use the Tesla powertrains? Or is he putting a gas engine in the Teslas? 

[capngrog]

43 minutes ago, John348 said:

 

Actually the load on the grid has gone down tremendously in the last 7 years.

 

According to the U.S. Energy Information Administration, the load on the U.S. grid has been essentially flat since about 2006.  Assuming that the U.S. population has increased significantly during this period, this means a drop in per capita electric energy consumption.  Electrically-powered vehicles will shift the demand from liquid fuels to electricity, meaning an increase on the load/demand on the U.S. electrical grid.  At least that's the way I understand the below graph:

 

https://www.eia.gov/electricity/data/browser/#/topic/0?agg=2,0,1&fuel=vvg&geo=g&sec=g&linechart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.M&columnchart=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.COW-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NG-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.NUC-US-99.M~ELEC.GEN.HYC-US-99.M&map=ELEC.GEN.ALL-US-99.M&freq=M&start=200101&end=201806&chartindexed=0&ctype=linechart&ltype=pin&rtype=s&pin=&rse=0&maptype=0

 

Cheers,

Grog

[Restorer32]

13 hours ago, countrytravler said:

I haul Tesla cars out of Freemont. They are building on the factory. They are 3 months back order. Also, he has hired a bunch NASA engineers from Cape Canaveral area. Already relocated about 10 families to Bellvue WA area. These guys are in the 6 digits for pay. had the tour of the car plant and the plant that is building the rockets. The 2 factories are mind-blowing. Have a customer that is buying all the totaled Teslas that he can find. He converts them to gas cars. He gave me a ride in an 80s Datsun Z and when he stepped on it, I could not get out of the seat. Runs 9s in a 1/4 and gets about 600 miles before a charge.

 

600 miles on a charge? Color me skeptical.

[MCHinson]

3 hours ago, TerryB said:

That incentive applies to buyers of any electric car brand, not just Tesla.  Tesla does not receive the money.  There is a production limit tied to the tax rebate and when that number is achieved the rebate no longer applies to that manufacturers car.  With Model 3 production demand Tesla is quickly nearing that number.  Others like Nissan have a long way to go to reach that point.  If Audi, MB, or anybody else shows up with a totally electric vehicle the incentive will apply to them as well.

 

My point is that the government rebate subsidizes the business because it lowers the cost of their product to their customers, thus giving people an incentive to buy the product.

 

The incentive will drop by half next year, but it I still feel the same about the govenment involvement. I will never be able to afford one, but I do pay taxes, so I am helping pay for others to drive them. 

[TerryB]

By “them” I assume you mean anyone driving an electric car?  There are others out there, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt are the other two popular cars that are totally electric.  My tax dollars subsidize lots of things I don’t own or use.

[MCHinson]

6 minutes ago, TerryB said:

By “them” I assume you mean anyone driving an electric car?  There are others out there, Nissan Leaf and Chevy Bolt are the other two popular cars that are totally electric.  My tax dollars subsidize lots of things I don’t own or use.

 

In the context of this discussion, I was simply referring to government subsidizing purchase of a vehicle that appears to be marketed as a high dollar luxury sports car.  

[billorn]

18 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

My point is that the government rebate subsidizes the business because it lowers the cost of their product to their customers, thus giving people an incentive to buy the product.

 

The incentive will drop by half next year, but it I still feel the same about the govenment involvement. I will never be able to afford one, but I do pay taxes, so I am helping pay for others to drive them. 

 

If your house isnt on fire why should you have to pay taxes for a fire deparment, right? I dont have any kids so why am I paying for other peoples kid's to go to school? I dont drive on the highway much so why are my tax dollars paying to fix it? We are not at war so why am I paying for the biggest military in history? I dont live near a volcano so why are they spending my tax dollars researching volcanos? Why are they fixing the street next to mine with my money......I dont live there?

 

Maybe sometimes doing good for everyone is more important than keeping a few extra dollars in your pocket. I bet "your" slice of the Tesla subsidies wouldnt even buy you a pack of gum. Everyone kicking in a little makes life better for everyone by alot. Or is "I got mine screw you" a better way to go thru life???

 

[TerryB]

12 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

In the context of this discussion, I was simply referring to government subsidizing purchase of a vehicle that appears to be marketed as a high dollar luxury sports car.  

That employs thousands of US people in an industry that can be foreign dominated by China.  I like the product and the industry as must be clear by now.  Not just Tesla but the entire concept of a vehicle that pollutes less and less noise.  I would really like the concept of the electric semi truck to get going.  The lack of noise alone in a city setting would be a joy.  My other passion is motorcycles and electric versions of them are gaining ng ground too.  The loud pipes saves lives gang will have to change to high powered music noise if the electric cycle implementation gains more support.

Edited September 20, 2018 by TerryB (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

17 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

If your house isnt on fire why should you have to pay taxes for a fire deparment, right? I dont have any kids so why am I paying for other peoples kid's to go to school? I dont drive on the highway much so why are my tax dollars paying to fix it? We are not at war so why am I paying for the biggest military in history? I dont live near a volcano so why are they spending my tax dollars researching volcanos? Why are they fixing the street next to mine with my money......I dont live there?

 

Maybe sometimes doing good for everyone is more important than keeping a few extra dollars in your pocket. I bet "your" slice of the Tesla subsidies wouldnt even buy you a pack of gum. Everyone kicking in a little makes life better for everyone by alot. Or is "I got mine screw you" a better way to go thru life???

 

 

 

My problem is a simple fact of the ethic of average people subsidising a very high end "luxury" product. 99.9 % of the people buying a Tesla can afford to pay the full price. If the product has merit people will buy it. Why take money out of my meager paycheque to "help out" people who are obviously much better off than I am ? Virtually no middle class person is buying a close to $100,000.00 car, subsidy or not.  

 

Greg in Canada where a very similar program exists.

Edited September 20, 2018 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[billorn]

58 minutes ago, MCHinson said:

 

In the context of this discussion, I was simply referring to government subsidizing purchase of a vehicle that appears to be marketed as a high dollar luxury sports car.  

 

Or maybe should I ask why I should help pay for hurricane wreckages if I dont live where hurricanes hit? Why dont those people move away from those places so the rest of us dont have to keep paying to clean it up?

 

I dont really mean any of this but before you start asking why you should help someone else you should make sure someone else isnt already helping you........

[MCHinson]

billorn,

 

This post clearly shows that you don't know much about me. I consider it a personal attack, which is a violation of the forum rules, and one that is quite off base at the same time. I certainly pay my own way and give a lot to those in need here in the US and overseas each and every year. The only people who will help subsidize anything at all for me will be insurance per a contract that I pay for. I actually had someone attempt to give me something just yesterday, but I would not accept it because I would prefer to go out and buy what I need than to take anything offered for free. I just got through shopping earlier today to replace those food items lost in the storm due to lack of electricity.

 

The entire discussion is a bit off topic, and probably should have been removed by a moderator on day one, which is why I hesitated to even enter the discussion. I have a different perspective of government spending being a retired government employee who has seen a lot of examples of "good" and "wasteful" government expenditures over a 30 year career. I have never been an advocate for those with less money helping to subsidize any luxury item for anybody. I still feel that way. Those who think that electric cars are pollution free, never want to talk about the pollution involved in producing the electricity. I am not one that thinks that government can or should fix every problem. I don't think that government should use its finances for luxuries when there are still plenty of people who need help with basic needs. There are better uses of our tax dollars than helping people buy luxury cars. If a car is a good car, it should sell for whatever it takes to produce it, as well as provide a reasonable profit to the company. From everything that I have read, it does not appear that Tesla currently manages to sell cars in that manner. This is not the first stupid government program, and it won't be the last, but that does not mean that I should approve of it. 

[Ben Bruce aka First Born]

Right on, Matt. Right on.

 

  Ben

[billorn]

I mean no offense Mr. Henson I was just trying to make a point that there are alot of things that we pay for with our taxes that dont do us any personal good but they help someone somewhere and I think thats probly OK. I was raised up in the 50's and 60's when people understood that community and building everybody up helped us all. Today it feels like eveyrone is only looking out for themselvs and they forgot how to be neighbors and society is crumbling. Everyone worries about what they're taxes are paying for and get angry if its something they dont like. I bet there are also alot of things they're taxes pay for that they DO like.

 

I didnt mean to say that your getting handouts.... but is accepting help when you need help a bad thing? Is helping people who need it a bad thing? This country was built by people who understood that helping eachother makes things better. Everyone does a little and it helps alot of areas. Today its mostly taxes that pay for it but if my tax dollars are paying to help poor people who lost everything in that hurricane you were in well Im ok with that. I wasnt there I didnt lose anything but if my money is helping my countryman rebuild that seems like the right thing to do. We dont each live in a bubble. A society works because everyone in it understands they get something out of it if they work together including paying taxes for things that maybe dont do them any good personaly. 

 

I get what your saying about Tesla. Its a luxury car that costs alot and the people who buy them arent hurting for money. We just gave them a giant tax cut too. Does that make you equally angry? Their using YOUR money so rich people can pay less. Same deal aint it?

 

It would be nice to pick and choose where your taxes go but thats not how it works and we understand why. But if it makes electric cars more common for mainstream people and the price of the technology comes down isnt that OK? I think that was the idea behind the tax refunds. Sometimes the only way to make people do the right thing is to hit them in the pocketbook. The less expensive electric cars get tax breaks too so its not just rich guys geting another free ride.

 

Im sorry I offended you that wasnt my goal. Take care of yourself and be well.

[TerryB]

Matt, I did not agree with your statement that we collectively are funding autos for the rich and well heeled only. Electric automobiles are now available to the more average incomes through sales of Tesla mode 3, Chevrolet Bolt, Nissan Leaf and others coming to market.  The tax incentives were intended to bolster the sales of cleaner vehicles and jump start an industry in the US that can furnish jobs and technology advances.  The Tesla business plan was to sell upscale cars as a foundation to eventually sell electric cars to the masses which is happening with Model 3 production and by improvements to competitor brands like the redesigned Leaf.

 

Our new national tax code has used incentives to stimulate the economy relying on wealthy people to hopefully spend money to attain its goals.  I don’t believe that is an ideal plan either but it’s what was accepted as the plan to use. Sounds a lot like the tax incentives for electric vehicle development.  Like you, I prefer those who are capable of paying do so, but we don’t always find government follows our wishes.  I do like to read the opinions of others here, both for and against.  My goal in the discussion is to try and keep the facts straight during the ongoing debates.