mercer09

SO TESLA IS TANKING....YOUR THOUGHTS

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I've wondered, too, if windmills affect the weather in some way.  That energy is removed from the wind, so a cloud gets moved less, and so forth.

 

All the "greenies" love windmills, yet there's a downside, tens of thousands of birds are killed by windmills each year.

 

Any green solution has other impacts to the environment.

 

 Ethanol usage has caused deforestation for more corn planting, resulting in erosion.  More fertilizer was needed to support more corn being grown, so pollution from those fertilizer factories increased.  Truck traffic to carry ethanol is increased, causing more pollution. End user  mileage per gallon decreases, negating some of the "saved" gas usage.

 

The piper gets paid no matter the tune.....

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That is the stupid part, "Ethanol usage has caused deforestation for more corn planting" since corn is about the least efficient way to create alcohol other plants can create 4X as much. Brazil relies almost entirely on alcohol for cars but not from corn. We just have A Lot of corn and no incentive to change.

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We just have A Lot of corn and no incentive to change.

 

or a lobbyist who got paid lots of money..............!

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9 hours ago, edinmass said:

. . . Right now we are just building things without thought to the consequences to the long term results. . .

 

My only quibble with your excellent post is this: I don't think it is just right now that we are building things without thought to the consequences to the long term results. I think it has pretty much always been that way.

 

5 hours ago, padgett said:

I'm still concerned about the infrastructure, we still have occasional brownouts around 6pm when everybody cranks their AC up. And many can tell when the AC starts up by a momentary dimming of the lights. What will happen when there is a significant number of electric cars plug in the same way. Just how many can the grid support ?


Maybe it is just my state: The state require utilities to offer time of use (TOU) metering and my utility makes it really attractive to switch to TOU if you have an EV or plug-in hybrid. In winter the rates are not radically different, but in summer the difference between peak (4 to 9 PM) at $0.52/kWh and super off peak (midnight to 6 AM) at $0.09/kWh means that few plug-in or EV owners will be competing with people trying to cool their homes when they get home from work. Just set your car to charge after midnight. Helps balance the utility grid load which might actually make it easier for the utility to manage the spin up and spin down of their generating stations.

 

If/when solar becomes a big enough source to create what the utilities call "negative demand" in the middle of the day, they can change the super off peak rates to match peak solar generation to induce people to charge cars at that time of day.

 

There is talk about creating systems that would allow the utilities to send pricing information to devices/customers on a dynamic basis which would allow loads that can be moved around to pick the time with cheapest power (i.e. when supply minus uncontrolled loads) exist.

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Will be interesting to see how the gov'mnt replaces the lost tax revenue due to electrics not paying gas taxes. I am a Councilman in a small PA town. Every year we get a check for our share of the road taxes collected by the state. Each year that check is around $40K which usually pays to plow our snow and cinder our streets thru the Winter. 

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Some of the gas retailers are looking at electricity pumps, you insert your charge card and pay for as much charge as you desire.  A usage tax like the tax on gasoline could be and probably will be applied to the purchase.

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2 hours ago, Restorer32 said:

Will be interesting to see how the gov'mnt replaces the lost tax revenue due to electrics not paying gas taxes. I am a Councilman in a small PA town. Every year we get a check for our share of the road taxes collected by the state. Each year that check is around $40K which usually pays to plow our snow and cinder our streets thru the Winter. 

 

Some states are starting annual fees for EV vehicles to cover the lack of gasoline tax a "regular" car would have generated. Not exactly equivalent as gas tax is somewhat related to miles driven. Only somewhat as there are vast differences in vehicle fuel economy: I can drive three to four times as many miles on a gallon of gas in my Prius as I can in my old car so the state gets more $/mi to fix the roads when I drive my old car. Not sure how my state will be distributing the EV tax money to counties, cities and towns for road maintenance. I am sure there are politics involved there.

 

I've heard of some proposals to create a mileage based fee but the ones I've heard of have been rejected either because they'd fail (honor based ones like reporting your odometer reading) or create privacy issues (GPS or ODB2 monitoring).

 

Figuring out how to fairly charge for common infrastructure is messy. In the places I have lived in there is a sewer charge based on water usage. It means that someone who has a large yard they irrigate could be paying more for sewer services than a neighbor who puts the same amount of waste down the drain but has a smaller or zero-scaped yard. Not what most people would consider fair but what are the options? We have had that with roads forever too: A typical long distance truck does about 10,000 times the damage to the road per year as a private car but pays far less than 10,000 times what a car pays in road taxes.

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4 hours ago, TerryB said:

Some of the gas retailers are looking at electricity pumps, you insert your charge card and pay for as much charge as you desire.  A usage tax like the tax on gasoline could be and probably will be applied to the purchase.

 

Applying an EV Road Usage Tax during the charging process from charging locations around the country and an EV Owner's home would be costly and cumbersome. 

It would not be that difficult to come up with a mathematical equation using mileage and/or the total amount of electricity used to charge an EV over a period of time to figure out a Road Usage tax mount to levy against an EV and its owner. Getting this information directly from the EV simplifies the collection process and increases accuracy.

 

I do not see how this data would be a privacy issue because this and a LOT MORE DATA is already being collected by at least some EV manufacturers.

For some manufacturers, the data they are collecting NOW is projected to be worth HUNDREDS of BILLIONS of dollars a YEAR at some point.


The Amazing Ways Tesla is Using Artificial Intelligence and Big Data

 

 

 

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On ‎9‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:00 PM, TerryB said:

The missing point is Tesla is a long distance car, not a 25 or 50 mile range unit.  To charge that large of a battery pack quickly requires a plug design that meets the safety requirements for that level of charging voltage and current and to do that Tesla specified its own plug in the US market.  To copy someone else like Nissan or Toyota would not be worth the effort for what they have to achieve.  In countries that have established a requirement for charging plug design, Teslas are delivered with that configuration as standard.  

I just saw an article that stated the electric cars suffer from a huge drop in distance in the cold weather we have had as of late. Many of the cars, according to the article, lose almost half of their distance. The article mentioned that one way to help was to precondition the car (warm the interior) while still plugged in to the grid. That way you are not using power for heat as much and the car can use the power to travel further.

Edited by fordrodsteven (see edit history)

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If we studied gas autos we would most likely see a drop in fuel mileage for the gasoline automobile in extreme cold weather too.  May not be as much as the EV as the heat energy generated by the gasoline engine finally serves a purpose.  Rest of the time we are faced with keeping the engine cool for it to operate properly.   

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The drop in distance from cold is because the battery uses its own energy to warm itself up before it will work properly. I have been told that until the battery reaches a minimum temperature that the car will only go about 40 mph, have no idea if it is true, but it sounds reasonable that the battery is thermally protected. If you keep the car in a slightly heated garage, then the only warm up is after settling outside all day before you go home from work.

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I saw a video made recently by a Tesla Model 3 owner living in the upper midwest during the very cold weather (-21 degrees). His vehicle is parked outside all the time. He started charging the batteries an hour or two before he left the house which "preheated" the batteries and set the climate control to 78 degrees while it was connected to the charger. His speed was not limited. He ran the heat at 70 degrees and 3 bars on the seat heat. He said he normally does not run the heater (just uses the seat heaters) but it was so cold out he had to run the heat because the windows were freezing up. He drove 27 actual miles . He lost 45 percent of his range due to the cold. Other reports from Tesla Model 3 owners show a loss of 33 to 50% loss of range in cold weather.

 

Interesting to note the steering in his car was stiff and did not improve during his drive due to the fact that the steering rack never warmed up because there was no engine heat.

 

Another key thing to remember is that in cold weather EVs like the Tesla charge MUCH SLOWER in order to protect the life of the batteries.

Given the range decrease due to cold temperatures and the MUCH longer charging time one has to wonder about the impact of these factors on a Tesla Semi. Truckstops and carrier yards do not have garages for their Semis so a Tesla Semi is going to have to deal with the cold. Unless, all the companies paying BIG bucks to Tesla to reserve a Semi are only going to use them in warm climates.

Edited by charlier (see edit history)

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Road user charges should be based on vehicle weight-miles.  Road damage is proportional to axle weight to the power of 4 although the truck lobby would disagree with that!

 

In this country, only petrol is taxed at the pump. Diesel is not. Historically a lot of it was used off road for agricultural and machinery running. So to gather some revenue from diesel vehicles, there are Road User Charges of so much per km based on a number of GVM bands. You buy the charges in advance. All HGVs have (or at least, had in the past) hubodometers to keep track of it and car speedos are deemed good enough. There is a sticker on the windscreen for vehicle license and another for the RUCs. An officer of any law can easily check if you are paying your way. When you go for a Certificate of Fitness (mandated safety check) it will be checked too.

 

I would imagine the Transport Agency will be giving some thought to how to tax electric car running.

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I’ve had so many cars with non working odometers, this would not work for me. I guess hub odometers will have to fit small wheels too!

 

Our odometer readings are checked at annual safety inspection too, never asked why the number didn’t change.😀

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In this country, only petrol is taxed at the pump. Diesel is not. 

 

 

and  diesel today is much more then gas. go figure!

 

growing up, diesel was a bargain.....................

 

so back to the initial problem that was never solved.........the batteries. Hey nice looking car!  Thanks, but it wont go anywhere.

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Before I buy an electric I want to road test it on a hilly road on a cold day. I seldom drive the speed limit. I have a heavy foot.  I will have the heater on,  the wipers wiping,  the seat heaters on,  radio playing,  headlights on for safety.  And oh yea, the kids will be in the back seat watching a video and running the windows up and down just to irritate me.  A local convenience store just installed 5 Tesla branded charging stations. Have yet to see one of them in use but I'm sure electrics will be common before long. They have even invaded our restoration shop. Just finishing a 1918 Rauch and Lang Electric and will likely be restoring a Detroit Electric in the near future.

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3 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

A local convenience store just installed 5 Tesla branded charging stations. Have yet to see one of them in use but I'm sure electrics will be common before long.  Just finishing a 1918 Rauch and Lang Electric and will likely be restoring a Detroit Electric in the near future.

Build an adapter, and make use of one of them when you drive your R&L to the store.

 

What I can't understand is why a convenience store would install them, unless it was the building owner who did for a local tax break of sorts.  On average, one spends less than 2-5 minutes in a 'convenience store', and don't think one would even gain a 1% charge in those 2 minutes!!

 

Craig

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Bigger convenience stores are becoming restaurants so staying a while as the car charges is not out of the question.  The stores would like you to stay longer and spend more $$$$.

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16 minutes ago, 8E45E said:

Build an adapter, and make use of one of them when you drive your R&L to the store.

 

What I can't understand is why a convenience store would install them, unless it was the building owner who did for a local tax break of sorts.  On average, one spends less than 2-5 minutes in a 'convenience store', and don't think one would even gain a 1% charge in those 2 minutes!!

 

Craig

 

Maybe the inverse is true. By putting in chargers he is hoping people will stay longer and buy more. Most gas stations dont make much from gas but alot from soda and a coffee and chips.

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27 minutes ago, Restorer32 said:

Before I buy an electric I want to road test it on a hilly road on a cold day. I seldom drive the speed limit. I have a heavy foot.  I will have the heater on,  the wipers wiping,  the seat heaters on,  radio playing,  headlights on for safety.  And oh yea, the kids will be in the back seat watching a video and running the windows up and down just to irritate me.  A local convenience store just installed 5 Tesla branded charging stations. Have yet to see one of them in use but I'm sure electrics will be common before long. They have even invaded our restoration shop. Just finishing a 1918 Rauch and Lang Electric and will likely be restoring a Detroit Electric in the near future.

Local used car dealer here in Lititz PA has two Tesla Model S cars in stock, a black one and a red one.  Not too far from you, come on over and try one out!  Dealer is Warwick Autopark on Rt. 501. N of Lititz.

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4 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

Most gas stations dont make much from gas but alot from soda and a coffee and chips.

That is the reason I haven't set foot inside a gas station for many years, as I always pay directly at the pump with a card.   There's always a long line-up with customers who want to buy everything from coffee to smokes to lottery tickets; everything BUT the main reason it exists in the first place: Motor fuel!

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Listening to the NEWS yesterday they had a report the the Battery on the Electric Cars in the cold sub Zero Temps reduces the charge by as much as 30% meaning the hours and distance is greatly reduced. Not sure what cold temps need to get to, to cause the reduced battery levels but would assume it varies. So, they are saying you need to keep the Electric Cars in a heated garage and be aware that when you go some where and park out side, (I.E. Airport parking lot vacation trip) you may not have enough power to make it home.

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after all this talk about electric cars and their problems...............

 

will just drive gas cars till I die. no more then another 20 yrs left.

 

so who is going out now and buying a Tesla??????????

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2 hours ago, Doug Novak said:

Listening to the NEWS yesterday they had a report the the Battery on the Electric Cars in the cold sub Zero Temps reduces the charge by as much as 30% meaning the hours and distance is greatly reduced. Not sure what cold temps need to get to, to cause the reduced battery levels but would assume it varies. So, they are saying you need to keep the Electric Cars in a heated garage and be aware that when you go some where and park out side, (I.E. Airport parking lot vacation trip) you may not have enough power to make it home.

Kind of making sure you have enough gas to get home.  Low range cars like the Leaf would be most affected.  Gas is not dying it’s slowing down as alternatives gain market share.

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Gas is not dying it’s slowing down as alternatives gain market share.

 

 

 

actually Terry, dont think that is quite true yet............... China and India are just now getting cars and I am quite sure they arent electric.

 

Refining is Americas #1 resource at the moment and there is no slowing down in sight. We ship more fuel out of the country, then anyone else by far. We have the technology that countries like Russia and China dont.

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