So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

[charlier]

12 hours ago, Peter Gariepy said:

http://shrinkthatfootprint.com/electric-cars-green

 

Any idea where this group got the funding for their research? 

Sadly, the sources of such funding have been known in the past  to influence the findings of some research studies which can call those studies into question.

[60FlatTop]

In my personal research I have found that surface testing of atomic weapons has totaled 540 megatons of explosions between 1943 and 1990.

. Each of these tests incinerated the atmosphere at 7,000 degrees, destroying the ozone and creating nitrous oxides. Year after year the US, Russia, Britain, China, France, and others continued to incinerate the atmosphere in the name of the race, not the human race.

 

Today I can get online and find the exact environmental impact my truck or any car has. How much ozone does one kiloton blast incinerate? Can't find it.

 

Ten kilotons took out a city. 540 MEGATONs is apparently ignored in any conversation or presentation. Maybe it is inconvenient.

 

 One of the first things tribal communities did was appoint someone to be in charge of the fire. That's what humans do best, burn stuff. We just keep getting better and better at it.

 

I have thought about stating a political party, the Pragmatic Opposition. Wouldn't anyone join the PO'ed?

Bernie

 

[Locomobile]

It's highly unlikely Tesla would have agreed to the use of his name on this wind it up and watch it go battery car. Tesla and Edison were in disagreement over the AC or DC method of power. Tesla was an advocate for alternating current, and showed no interest in storing electricity in a DC configuration in a battery. Musk is a huckster and showman, again very un-Tesla like. Tesla shunned publicity and had no interest in corporate monopolies or even amassing personal wealth. That is one of my biggest issues with Musk, he exploited and misrepresented the great name of Tesla.

 

Musk's stock crashing is no surprise, it was a simple deduction and easy prediction that when the government subsidies were gone, they wouldn't survive. Billions of dollars from you and I - the taxpayers to fund this fantasy and joyride. Gone. Musk knew it wouldn't survive, when a manufacturer erects a tent to house his operation, he knows it is temporary. Here in Detroit, the Packard plant is still standing.

 

-Ron

 

[1912Staver]

Burning stuff ! Yes indeed Combustion Engineering is something we are very good at. Just think of the capital invested over the last 200 years. Steam engines, and boilers, I.C. engines, turbines, rocket engines, and yes explosives. And now all we have to do is put the genie back in the bottle. Can the Engineers do it ? And can they do it fast enough ?

 

Greg in Canada

[avgwarhawk]

11 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Burning stuff ! Yes indeed Combustion Engineering is something we are very good at. Just think of the capital invested over the last 200 years. Steam engines, and boilers, I.C. engines, turbines, rocket engines, and yes explosives. And now all we have to do is put the genie back in the bottle. Can the Engineers do it ? And can they do it fast enough ?

 

Greg in Canada

 

 

Hydrogen-methane vehicles.

[Locomobile]

13 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Can the Engineers do it ? And can they do it fast enough ?

 

Fast enough for what? If the reference being made to the recent 12 year warning issued by some of our aspiring politicians, I wouldn't pay much attention to that, it's a scare tactic for votes. All my life I've heard the predictions by those that supposedly know better, let's see.. the ice age was coming, then it was the fuel crisis and we would most likely be out of oil by 1985 and most definitely by 1991, then it was CFC's and and the greenhouse effect, along with several others, the Mayan calendar nonsense etc.

 

Self absorbed deluded men feel everything begins and ends in their lifetime, it hasn't and doesn't.

 

If someone really wants to do something proactive for the environment they could stop buying products manufactured in China. China emits more pollution in to the atmosphere, soil and waterways than North America and Europe combined. These politicians look to the US and lay blame here for "climate change", the reality is, the US has some of the most restrictive environmental regulations on industry in the world.

 

-Ron

[60FlatTop]

8 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

then it was the fuel crisis

 

News from the country "held hostage" by oil producing countries: https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=39192&src=email

 

The domino effect- Marconi invented the radio, radio made money selling laundry soap, radio expanded into "The Media", "The Media" will do anything to get ratings to sell more laundry soap and other commodities.

 

There are six key sources for the news.

[TerryB]

48 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 

Musk's stock crashing is no surprise, it was a simple deduction and easy prediction that when the government subsidies were gone, they wouldn't survive. Billions of dollars from you and I - the taxpayers to fund this fantasy and joyride. Gone. Musk knew it wouldn't survive, when a manufacturer erects a tent to house his operation, he knows it is temporary. Here in Detroit, the Packard plant is still standing.

 

 

Tesla is named for the electric motor principles he championed.  Tesla did not take your taxpayer money, the US government allowed tax credits to ALL buyers who purchased ANY brand of electric automobiles, Ford, Chevrolet, Toyota, Nissan Honda and so on.  Tesla and all others selling electric autos will tell you of the availability of these tax incentives when you are considering their products.  As I have said many times, people on this forum have a difficult time separating the company and it’s many talented employees and their highly successful products from the hard to like leader of the company.  Tesla the company has produced the most successful electric car in the history of the automobile and they are continuing to do that today.  Just this morning I have seen TV ads for a totally electric Jaguar auto and an electric Audi autos so the idea of the future electric autos success based solely on Tesla performance is not correct.  Electric autos are not going to go away any time soon.  You can choose to like or dislike this change in auto engineering for whatever reason you like, but the facts show worldwide acceptance of electric autos is on the rise.  I like the idea of an American company has been the leader in this emerging market. 

[1912Staver]

59 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 

Fast enough for what? If the reference being made to the recent 12 year warning issued by some of our aspiring politicians, I wouldn't pay much attention to that, it's a scare tactic for votes. All my life I've heard the predictions by those that supposedly know better, let's see.. the ice age was coming, then it was the fuel crisis and we would most likely be out of oil by 1985 and most definitely by 1991, then it was CFC's and and the greenhouse effect, along with several others, the Mayan calendar nonsense etc.

 

Self absorbed deluded men feel everything begins and ends in their lifetime, it hasn't and doesn't.

 

If someone really wants to do something proactive for the environment they could stop buying products manufactured in China. China emits more pollution in to the atmosphere, soil and waterways than North America and Europe combined. These politicians look to the US and lay blame here for "climate change", the reality is, the US has some of the most restrictive environmental regulations on industry in the world.

 

-Ron

 

Ron, you are clearly a gambling man. However if you are within the typical age of antique car fans; say 55 and up, the stakes really are not that high.  "Our" age group generally has 20-25 years left, and most worst case predictions don't kick in within that short a time. 

 It's the younger generations that are up against serious odds. Someone born today has 80 + years of potential climate change to worry about, and over that time period who knows what might happen.  Those sort of odds are probably a good part of why younger people are often quite a bit more concerned than us dinosaurs, that and left wing propaganda.

  Certainly China is a major factor, however to look at any single  country is a mistake. Every man, woman and child on this planet contributes to the problem. Some more than others, but at the end of the day every single one.

 

 I think those of us in the old car hobby generally have a pretty good handle on how fleeting a moment of time a single lifetime actually is.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited April 26, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

58 minutes ago, TerryB said:

Tesla did not take your taxpayer money,

 

It costs X amount of dollars to fund the Government, when one entity doesn't pay a tax , another entity has to, so we are essentially paying for it. The government has spent Billions of taxpayer dollars on alternative energy programs with little to show for it, Solyndra?

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

You can choose to like or dislike this change in auto engineering for whatever reason you like. but the facts show worldwide acceptance of electric autos is on the rise.

 

Well it's nothing new as you know, the electric car has been around for a long time. Still plagued with the same problems, short range and high cost, short life for a battery that is expensive to replace. Yes there are lots of folks nowadays interested in electric vehicles, I've always referred to these vehicles as "low hanging fruit" for the aspiring problem solvers. Once these folks realize, that visiting Grandma a few states away is nearly impossible, pulling the boat to the lake is really not practical, Cold climate areas results in no cabin heat or use cabin heat and greatly reduce the range, then the allure of the electric car begins to diminish. Anecdotal, but I know people that have owned them and the above was their reasons for getting rid of them. Car companies will build what ever the market will buy, them building electric cars is not making any sort of statement about the environment, they are simply meeting market demand. Want a mini-van, we'll build one, want an SUV, we'll build one, want a pickup truck..etc.

 

-Ron

 

[edinmass]

Cabin heat uses very little power in an electric car, the A/C also uses very little power. Whaat does consume huge amounts of power is a hidden part of the car........the battery heater. In cold weather the battery must come up to temperature before you can drive over 30mph.......can take several minutes, and most of time cuts the battery distance for driving by 40 percent. 

[mercer09]

while we are on the topic of the atmosphere- my son sales on ships as an engineer.

 

Ships create far more pollution worldwide then automobiles.

 

As Bernie stated above, our focus is way off kilter.........................................

 

furthermore, we have no control of China or India or any other nation.

 

 

ps if you own shares in your retirement acct with Tesla- might consider getting out.................

[1912Staver]

Several years ago I saw an interview with a British climate scientist. In his opinion climate change was a solvable problem. Then the interviewer mentioned air travel. The scientist looked a bit awkward for a moment and then stated that of course we would have to give up air travel. Simply no way of working it in to a solution. Anyone see any progress on that front ?

 

Greg in Canada

[TerryB]

The rage issue in cold has been improved with software updates from Tesla that can lessen the impact of cold weather operation. Naturally the fix and improvements get less notice as that doesn’t make as dramatic headlines.

[mercer09]

 

Self absorbed deluded men feel everything begins and ends in their lifetime, it hasn't and doesn't.

 

 

you deserve the Nobel for that statement............ I know a few of them.

[Matt Harwood]

You did not act in time.

 

Greta Thunberg's full speech to MPs

 

Bah, she's just a dumb kid and doesn't live in America and doesn't mention that it's God's commandment for us to wreck the planet, so she's 100% wrong about everything she's saying. Besides, there are those two or three scientists who disagree with her (and the thousands of other scientists) and since they are the minority opinion, they're the only correct ones because everyone else has an agenda. Am I doing that part right?

 

How's the hole into which you're sticking your head these days? Mine is getting a little stuffy. We're all hypocrites, myself included.

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

"Climate Change" is a total hoax / wealth redistribution scheme concocted by globalists such as Al Gore ( you remember him - the guy who invented the internet, right?)  One of the biggest scams ever tried. First it was called "global warming", but when the hoaxers doctored data on that was exposed, they changed the name to the much more nebulous term " Climate Change." Total load of crap. If you want an electric car, fine. Just don't try to sell it to others based on manipulated pseudo science.

[AzBob]

The climate has always changed. Changing from “Global Warming” to “Climate Change”  make it a win win situation. Either cooling or warming to fit the popular narrative works.  

[TerryB]

To those who see and comprehend what’s happening at the polar ice caps and to glaciers there is little to debate that the climate of the globe is changing, what is open to debate is the reason for this change.  I’d rather be part of the solution rather than part of the problems we face from this change. At 67 and with a very beat up body I’m not able to do as much as I hoped to in my lifetime but I try when I can to be part of the solution.  Last thing I want to hear from a young person is “if you knew it was a problem, why didn’t you do something about it?”  We have been successful in combating air and water pollution, chemical effects on health, banning carcinogenic substances and even getting smokers to change their habits so there is a chance for some progress in our lifetime.

 

[Gunsmoke]

My Dad used to have to sayings, "don't preach to the converted", and "don't cast your pearls before the swine". I think this thread is a perfect demonstration of the wisdom of my Dad. Climate Change caused by human behaviour is real (for you converts), and  for the swine, ...............

[TerryB]

And how does any of this relate to the antique car hobby?  I do get a bit “excited” about this topic but in reality it’s getting too far off topic even for me.  I enjoy the banter about autos and the collecting and restoration/ repair of them so I’m going to do my best to stay out of the trap that lures me back to participate and at times defend my beliefs on current autos.  In closing, did you see where the DOJ is investing Ford?  Are we going to see another VW like cover up?  stay tuned!

[Locomobile]

46 minutes ago, Penske PC-7 said:

If you want an electric car, fine. Just don't try to sell it to others based on manipulated pseudo science.

 

My feelings exactly. it's just a gimmick for the people building them for those that believe they need one.

 

The true marketing appeal of an electric car can be summed up this way: If there was a vehicle for sale with a two gallon gas tank that took eight hours to fill with a not readily available fuel and this gas tank cost 8500 dollars and needed to be replaced every five years, how many people would buy one? That is exactly what people are buying when they buy an electric car. Weigh the environmental impact of manufacturing the batteries, mining the lithium, coal burning generation of the electricity used, dealing with the toxic waste of battery disposal, it's doubtful the gains are all that worthwhile from an environmental standpoint.

 

1 hour ago, Matt Harwood said:

God's commandment for us to wreck the planet,

 

Who is wrecking the planet now? If we look at it historically, we're doing a much better job now than we were say a hundred years ago. Back then air quality wasn't even a consideration. Imagine whole cities heating with coal, in the winter time the smog was so heavy people could barely breathe. Window panes were brown from residue of coal smoke. Even here in the US we were destroying our ecosystem, no doubt about it. I grew up in  Detroit and I've seen the changes myself, at one time the Detroit river was black and poisonous, now it is clean and there are trout and walleye in the Detroit river. The Rouge river that runs past the Ford Rouge plant caught fire and it took a long time to put out, some flammable chemical was floating on top and burning. That isn't the case today, strict environmental rules were put in place back in the 70's and it is a much different situation now. Even air quality, of course the loss of industry has helped in that regard, but there are no more factories belching smoke in to the atmosphere, they all had to clean up their act and they did. So what else can be done? Go without any industry? New York's Mayor is trying to outlaw skyscrapers because of all the steel and glass. The folks that espouse these desires have no comprehension of what they are truly asking. As I was told a long time ago 'Be careful what you ask for, ya might get it"

 

-Ron

 

 

 

 

[Matt Harwood]

5 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

Who is wrecking the planet now? If we look at it historically, we're doing a much better job now than we were say a hundred years ago. Back then air quality wasn't even a consideration. Imagine whole cities heating with coal, in the winter time the smog was so heavy people could barely breathe. Window panes were brown from residue of coal smoke. Even here in the US we were destroying our ecosystem, no doubt about it. I grew up in  Detroit and I've seen the changes myself, at one time the Detroit river was black and poisonous, now it is clean and there are trout and walleye in the Detroit river. The Rouge river that runs past the Ford Rouge plant caught fire and it took a long time to put out, some flammable chemical was floating on top and burning. That isn't the case today, strict environmental rules were put in place back in the 70's and it is a much different situation now. Even air quality, of course the loss of industry has helped in that regard, but there are no more factories belching smoke in to the atmosphere, they all had to clean up their act and they did. So what else can be done? Go without any industry? New York's Mayor is trying to outlaw skyscrapers because of all the steel and glass. The folks that espouse these desires have no comprehension of what they are truly asking. As I was told a long time ago 'Be careful what you ask for, ya might get it"

 

-Ron

 

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Locomobile said:

New York's Mayor is trying to outlaw skyscrapers because of all the steel and glass

And hot dogs. To reduce cow farts I guess. I'm sure glad I live in the country surrounded by my own 100 acres...........Bob

[ply33]

1 hour ago, TerryB said:

And how does any of this relate to the antique car hobby?

 

I've been mulling that over.

 

I got interested in old cars because of a general fascination with mechanical things and seeing how different they thought about solving problems than we do now. For the first three decades of the automobile's existence there were all sorts of innovation in the design of cars. Lots of things were tried and abandoned. Makes for a wonderful era to study or collect cars from.

 

About the only two things I can think of that was original to the period from the mid-1950s until the advent of significant smog controls in the 1970s were cruise control and disc brakes. Twenty years of stasis and blah in my opinion. Many people like cars of that era, more power to them but they are of no particular interest to me.

 

Starting with the first, in my mind horrible, attempts at significant control of emissions and accelerating later with computerized control of the engine and now other systems, new cars became interesting to me. The engineers are again pushing the envelope with things like CVT, hybrid drive systems, EV with significant range, and now autonomous operation. Many of these designs will pass by the wayside just as many designs from the 1900s through the 1930s passed by the wayside. But some will endure. It is interesting to see what types of things are being tried to solve real or perceived problems.

 

If your automotive preferences are based on styling, it is probably a horrible thing to look at many new cars. If your preferences are based on the smell of gas and oil or the sound and feel of a big V8 rumbling along, it is probably a horrible era to look at new cars. But if you are interested in automotive technology, it is another golden era: Lots of fascinating things are being tried.

[1912Staver]

Thanks but no, I dealt with lots of automation technology at work. Computer load sharing on a multiple prime mover ship, with PTO generators thrown into the mix. 4 main engines , two shafts and CP props. And a deisel stand by genset on a UPS power management system. A split buss system as there was no way you could keep the cycles in sync when the ship was turning. So much computerization, so many things to check when it didn't all get along. Or when a component or wire or connection failed. The ship was every now and then out of service for a few days while teams of us traced every circuit and connection and device looking for the fault that threw it all into a tizzy.

  KISS, keep it simple stupid. Words that now that I am retired I really take to heart.

 

Greg in Canada

Edited April 26, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[autoluke]

Interesting that many of the comments deal with the need for governmental regulation of " global climate change", while the real issue is how our politicians can create yet another crisis.

They have all learned that crisis management leads to study groups, legal reviews, and site visits while staying at The Four Seasons.

[mercer09]

while staying at The Four Seasons.

 

sounds like a plan............! lol

[padgett]

Incredible that this has gone on for 21 pages, maybe we need an "off topic" forum ?

 

Climate change has been around for eons with many long-term swings from "hotter" to "colder" and back. Coming out of the "little ice age" people are surprised it is getting warmer ?

[Guest]

If you want a Tesla, great. Just don't buy one thinking you are somehow helping to save the planet. That's simply false. Alas,  there'll be other opportunities to virtue signal. 🙄

 

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2019/04/those_filthy_teslas.html

Edited April 27, 2019 by Guest (see edit history)

[Frank DuVal]

On 4/26/2019 at 9:16 AM, Locomobile said:

Tesla was an advocate for alternating current, and showed no interest in storing electricity in a DC configuration in a battery.

 

Tesla invented the polyphase AC system. This is the system of propulsion in the Tesla car. Why would he not like it?

 

Can't store AC power in AC form, except strange ways, like storing it as water at the top of a mountain !  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_County_Pumped_Storage_Station

Even if you put AC into a capacitor, it comes out as DC if the storage time is long.

So, batteries it is.👍

 

Convert stored energy in batteries to AC using a variable speed drive (variable frequency drive) and you have a Tesla, or Prius, or Leaf, or Volt, or Bolt, or GM full sized pick up truck.....................  The only difference is how you charge the batteries! All these vehicles use polyphase AC motors.

 

Heck, even the US military is looking into hybrids:     http://www.hybrid-vehicle.org/hybrid-truck-hemtt.html

 

That's what our tax dollars into battery research are doing. Military needs (you know, defense of our nation) drives research into new dimensions.

 

DC motors for high horsepower are so 1890!😊

Edited April 28, 2019 by Frank DuVal (see edit history)

[mercer09]

yes, this thread is supposed to be about Tesla-what I am surprised at is that we didnt get any discussion on early electrics and the advantages of the Tesla today.

 

what mistakes has Tesla made vs gains in automotive society today? What improvements could be made? (not speaking of only economics here)

 

I am pleased to see so many different opinions and not just black and white logic.

 

This thread did exactly what I had hoped for-

+

[alsancle]

I had dinner with my oldest last week and we were talking about Tesla.   I told her I was thinking about a model S (or a 3500 Ram Diesel to give you an idea of my brain).   She got excited and said I would go up 5 notches on the cool scale if I did that.   I guess the Diesel stick isn't as cool as it was 25 years ago.    My daughter is no green weenie but to her generation the Tesla is what the "GTO" was to mine.

[Locomobile]

4 hours ago, mercer09 said:

what I am surprised at is that we didnt get any discussion on early electrics and the advantages of the Tesla today.

 

Because other than small improvements in a sleek futuristic gadget infused package, there really aren't any. These factors remain, short range, considerable time to recharge, degrading battery life, battery cost.

8 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Tesla invented the polyphase AC system. This is the system of propulsion in the Tesla car. Why would he not like it?

 

Because of the battery, I'm certain he would have considered it elementary and pointless. He had ideas and even carried out successful experiments for electric cars, boats etc, but the AC electricity was transmitted by wireless means to a receiver- no battery. Have a look at his experiments, that is the direction he was going, but the powers that be were afraid of him as he threatened their monopolies and they stifled his efforts at every opportunity. His plan was free electricity for everyone on the planet to power their lives, based on understanding that electricity is ever present and only needs to be harnessed and transmitted. Does this sound like Elon Musk at all? The Tesla car is 180° away from the direction Tesla was working.

 

-Ron

Edited April 28, 2019 by Locomobile (see edit history)

[C Carl]

Tesla's notion of omnidirectional wireless transmission of electrical power violates the inverse square law. And he had an all-consuming love affair with his bird. A pigeon, I believe.   -   Carl 

[Locomobile]

14 minutes ago, C Carl said:

Tesla's notion of omnidirectional wireless transmission of electrical power violates the inverse square law.

 

That was debunked 70 years ago. Tesla like anyone with great ideas ( Pioneers get the arrows) was under an all out attack by the media which was owned by the same corporations that he threatened. He was crazy, he was in love with a pigeon etc.

 

-Ron

[C Carl]

Ron, are you saying that the inverse square law has been debunked as regards Tesla's wireless transmission of electrical power ? Now, please understand, I am one of the least educated participants here. I mean that. We might end up having to ask Frank DuVal, TerryB, Bloo, or some of our other electrical engineers to step in. Those guys must be among the most highly educated participants when it comes to matters electrical. As I recognize I am ill-educated, (seriously), I always try to defer to those who know way more than I do. That is why I hire specialists when I need them. Also how I was able to make many millions of dollars in the dot com bubble, burst, and gradual recovery. Please tell me how wireless transmission of electro-motive power can be more efficient than hard wired.  -   Carl 

[60FlatTop]

On 4/27/2019 at 7:12 AM, autoluke said:

while the real issue is how our politicians can create yet another crisis. 

 

If one wants to witness a real crisis ask the next climate regulation supporter how many kilowatt hours were charged on their last electric bill. You will get the deer in the headlights stare. Most don't have a clue of how much they are using, but know all about what others need to do. Yes, especially the politicians.

There was a big party in Washington, DC when power plant regulations were tightened by the last administration. But they, apparently, didn't know the light switch was connected to the power plant.

 

Ask your state comptroller when someone walked through the capitol building at midnight to see if the lights were left on. They don't think of that, they look at windmills to buy.

"Increased renewable energy means everyone can leave ALL the lights on".

 

Regulations demand a car gets 50 MPG. The owner says "My car gets 50 MPG. We take more trips than we ever did!"

[TNGizmo]

I may have missed it but what about the emissions to build a electric car. I've read that its hard if not impossible to calculate the emissions total in building a car because of the globalization of the manufacturing. With batteries made of lithium (Which can't be a environmentally happy substance) are we replacing drilling for oil with mining lithium, albeit at lesser quantity but how much lithium is there on the planet.

I had a 1992 Geo metro It got 49MPG with todays technology and without gizmology (adding technology to technology) couldn't they do better. Yes, The metro was light, slow and not very safe but it was a 1992. I guess its what is expected out of a new car these days, quick acceleration(i.e. high HP), AC, Lots of other dodads that sort of car is not feasible. Our current automobile show the affluence of our nation most definitely. 

[60FlatTop]

Most of the emissions created from manufacturing my '60 Electra and '64 Riviera were incinerated during nuclear tests in the 1970's and 1980's.