mercer09

So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

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Tesla wouldn't be the first manufacturer to loose money on each car sold. The more popular your product the more money the organization looses. It all has to end sooner or later. Alco was one of the finest cars built in the teens. The company took a few years to realize their error. They still make locomotives, just no cars for many years. Perhaps Musk will survive as a rocket manufacturer and drop cars to survive.

 

 Greg in Canada

 

 

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If the start-up companies in USA (like Tesla) don't get support from the masses, (and start-up support from government) other countries with similarly focused start-ups will be eating all the pie. Today's lead article in Hemming's Daily Blog describes just one such company in Germany (Sono) about to start production on it's solar and battery powered mini-van. A lot of guys on this thread need to begin to welcome the new reality and encourage/help companies like Tesla become leaders in forging the new era of personal transport. Otherwise, I can see the newspaper headlines 2 years from now "PRESIDENT SLAPS 40% TARIFF ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEING IMPORTED FROM GERMANY/CHINA/ETC TO SAVE JOBS IN TRADITIONAL CAR INDUSTRY". The tide is coming in folks. 

 

Edited by Gunsmoke (see edit history)
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I am afraid it will be a very long time before I welcome a very expensive , very complex vehicle into my life. My current very simple, near as can be imagined to trouble free, very economical to operate regular use car is a $10,000.00 Hyundai Accent. For the price of the cheapest Tesla {$64,000.00 Canadian before incentives}  I could buy a number of Accents, probably  4 or even 5. So far 280,000 virtually trouble free KM. I simply cannot afford any $40,000.00 +, daily driver. Otherwise my priority {hobby car } budget would be non-existent.

If someone in North America built a vehicle like the Accent I would definitely consider one. However they all seem to concentrate on significantly larger, more expensive, products. Some of us don't need a luxury SUV

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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Gunsmoke,

 

the government has already invested billions (with a B) B in Tesla)

 

how many more billions should we keep investing in failure? Solyndra's losses pale compared to Tesla.

I for one am not interested in paying more taxes. There is a reason we left England 200 plus years ago.............

 

Staver has it right.

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23 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

I for one am not interested in paying more taxes.

 

 

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It is probably pointless to try to explain in this hostile thread why governments of all stripes invest in new technology like Tesla is creating. First one has to accept that human behaviour based "climate change" is real. If you don't agree, then stop reading now.

 

If you do agree, then the global community of responsible governments and leaders (but not all, China being an outlier) have agreed to take steps within their jurisdictions to "do their part" in reducing green house gas emissions (like the Paris Accord, an agreement the current USA adminiostration has dropped out of for no explainable reason). The steps can include movement  toward greater use of renewable energy (wind, solar, hydro), reduction of energy use (LED bulbs, better insulation levels) reduction of industry off-gassing (agriculture and manufacturing), education about the value of changes in lifestyle (like not driving your 4x4 350 crew cab 50 miles daily to your office job), and universal proven motivational measures like Carbon Taxes or Cap and Trade systems, etc. To achieve buy-in, governments offers incentives in the form of grants, tax relief, research funding, land or buildings and the like, some of which have gone to the Tesla family of companies, who besides cars have a strong sister solar panel company. 

 

Could $5B spent on such endeavors in the past 5 years be spent in a better way. Sure, you can spend it every year cleaning up the Climate Change messes from flooding, huurrricanes,  tornados, droughts, forest fires. I rest my case.

Edited by Gunsmoke (see edit history)
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Gunsmoke , I am far from disagreeing with your above comment. Except perhaps that Tesla is part of the solution and therefore worthy of taxpayer subsidy's. 

I am probably as much of an environmentalist as almost anyone on this forum. However I am not wealthy. All my pennies count in this downwardly mobile retired life I now live. And I would have to agree with the opinions expressed by a number of people on this thread that the question of the electric car and its overall environmental impact is still a very unclear situation.

  Also besides China I think you will find country's like India and Indonesia have a very large pollution problem. Along with a incredibly large population.

 I really can't see the wisdom in Western Country's causing themselves substantial economic harm; largely shouldered by middle class and lower citizen's, as long as such huge populations in Asian country's are polluting on such a grand scale. The 21 st. century will probably see China become truly dominant in the world economy, why hand them a large advantage by trying to solve the worlds problems on the backs of average Western citizen's?

 

Greg in Canada

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

Gunsmoke , I am far from disagreeing with your above comment.  I am probably as much of an environmentalist as almost anyone on this forum. However I am not wealthy. All my pennies count in this downwardly mobile retired life I now live. And I would have to agree with the opinions expressed by a number of people on this thread that the question of the electric car and its overall environmental impact is still a very unclear situation.

  Also besides China I think you will find country's like India and Indonesia have a very large pollution problem. Along with a incredibly large population.

 I really can't see the wisdom in Western Country's causing themselves substantial economic harm; largely shouldered by middle class and lower citizen's, as long as such huge populations in Asian country's are polluting on such a grand scale. The 21 st. century will probably see China become truly dominant in the world economy, why hand them a large advantage by trying to solve the worlds problems on the backs of average Western citizen's.

 

Greg in Canada

 

No matter who screws up the planet, we ALL still live here. Making it Chinas and Indias problem to solve because they have the most people and are making the most pollution (although we use more oil than either of them) seems kind of short sited dont you think??? It wont matter who made the mess we are all going to have to live in it. Its also the kind of thing that cant be fixed overnight and we probly shoudnt sit around and wait for them to solve the problem for us or else it might be too late by then. Just because you cant solve 100% of the problem doesnt mean you shouldnt try to fix some of it. Perfect shouldnt be the enemy of good.

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As I previously mentioned things like air travel and industrial emissions all but guarantee that overall , global solutions to environmental problems are a long , long way away. I might even buy a electric car if everyone else gives up air travel, we all have to do our part after all. I haven't been on a commercial jet since about 2005, and probably won't use one for the foreseeable future.

Electric airliners ? Even Musk can't con investor's on that one.

 Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)
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1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

As I previously mentioned things like air travel and industrial emissions all but guarantee that overall , global solutions to environmental problems are a long , long way away. I might even buy a electric car if everyone else gives up air travel, we all have to do our part after all. I haven't been on a commercial jet since about 2005, and probably won't use one for the foreseeable future.

 Greg

 

So if there are bigger poluters why even bother at a personal level right? Your truly heroic for not flying on an airplane, you should get an award for that. And your willing to suffer enough to drive an electric car but only if everyone else gives up something thats actually vital to commerce? What a guy! After all why should we have to change our lifestyle's when all those poor people in those poor countries arent doing squat to help us keep our big houses and 7000 pound SUV's and sprawling suburbs and plastic water bottles. Why should we have to change our lifestyles even a little bit to make the future better for people who havent even been born? "Screw you I got mine" has been our motto for so many years we forgot what truely made this country great and it wasnt ignorance and selfishness.

 

This is why theres a problem. This is also why it wont be solved.

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1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

Climate Change messes from flooding, huurrricanes,  tornados, droughts, forest fires.

 

No serious climatologist claims that the above mentioned micro weather events can, or even should, be conflated with macro climatic  evolution. To even suggest that climate change be described in the context of an "event" is gross over simplification...............Bob

Edited by Bhigdog (see edit history)
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3 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

If the start-up companies in USA (like Tesla) don't get support from the masses, (and start-up support from government) other countries with similarly focused start-ups will be eating all the pie. Today's lead article in Hemming's Daily Blog describes just one such company in Germany (Sono) about to start production on it's solar and battery powered mini-van. A lot of guys on this thread need to begin to welcome the new reality and encourage/help companies like Tesla become leaders in forging the new era of personal transport. Otherwise, I can see the newspaper headlines 2 years from now "PRESIDENT SLAPS 40% TARIFF ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEING IMPORTED FROM GERMANY/CHINA/ETC TO SAVE JOBS IN TRADITIONAL CAR INDUSTRY". The tide is coming in folks. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

It is probably pointless to try to explain in this hostile thread why governments of all stripes invest in new technology like Tesla is creating.

 

The tread isn't "hostile". That's just your your characterization of opinions you don't agree with. 

 

Blindly having the government subsidize alleged solutions is a good way to get more crony capitalism and have political donors write policy. The government does not make good choices. They chose ethanol as the solution in the US, how's that working out? In Europe, they chose diesel, how's that working out? IMO, Tesla will soon be seen as a fraud run by a pathological liar (funding secured). But hey, the dude lands rockets....

 

Second, the notion that EVs is the best solution for all our transportation needs is fanciful. With the variety of use cases, one-size-fits-all will never work. But, the current policies that incentivize EVs means other solutions will be crowded out. Simply raising the gas tax $1 would do more for the environment in 6 months then Elon and Tesla have done in 15 years.

 

If you really care about the environment, you need to realize it isn't just a matter of energy usage, it's also a matter of economics. We need to come up with the most cost effective way to reduce use of fossil fuels, not the one that makes us feel good. 

Edited by Buick64C (see edit history)
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55 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

So if there are bigger poluters why even bother at a personal level right? Your truly heroic for not flying on an airplane, you should get an award for that. And your willing to suffer enough to drive an electric car but only if everyone else gives up something thats actually vital to commerce? What a guy! After all why should we have to change our lifestyle's when all those poor people in those poor countries arent doing squat to help us keep our big houses and 7000 pound SUV's and sprawling suburbs and plastic water bottles. Why should we have to change our lifestyles even a little bit to make the future better for people who havent even been born? "Screw you I got mine" has been our motto for so many years we forgot what truely made this country great and it wasnt ignorance and selfishness.

 

This is why theres a problem. This is also why it wont be solved.

 

If my tiny potential and that of other people in my situation is key to the planets survival then we are indeed doomed. I have a pretty tiny carbon footprint. No SUV, no cell, 85 year old smallish house, a very natural yard with 0 chemical additives, etc. Very little "consumer" spending . I do without much that most North Americans take for granted so that I might have a few $ each month for my one weakness , old cars. I live in a temperate part of the continent so little spending on heating, 0 spent on cooling. Heaven help us all if I am a bigger part of the problem than I imagine. But yes, for the good of the planet please carbon tax me truly into the poorhouse.

 

Greg. 

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

 

If my tiny potential and that of other people in my situation is key to the planets survival then we are indeed doomed. I have a pretty tiny carbon footprint. No SUV, no cell, 85 year old smallish house, a very natural yard with 0 chemical additives, etc. Very little "consumer" spending . I do without much that most North Americans take for granted so that I might have a few $ each month for my one weakness , old cars. I live in a temperate part of the continent so little spending on heating, 0 spent on cooling. Heaven help us all if I am a bigger part of the problem than I imagine. But yes, for the good of the planet please carbon tax me truly into the poorhouse.

 

Greg. 

 

If you dont care because your just one person what about 360 million people doing a little something here and their? Even the ocean is made up of little drops of water. Pretending that the problem isnt yours to solve because there are worse offenders means nothing ever gets done. But alot of good can get done if a huge number of people just do something small. Nobody is going to steal all your money to save the planet. But pretending that a few extra bucks in your pocket is more important than solving this problem is stupid at best and suicide at worst.

 

Thats why taxes do alot more good than they save each person but thats a topic for a different place. Enuff little drops add up to something big. Nobody has to give everything but everyone has to give something. Thats what living in a society is about. We forgot that and our grankids are going to pay the price.

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If you really care about the environment, you need to realize it isn't just a matter of energy usage, it's also a matter of economics. We need to come up with the most cost effective way to reduce use of fossil fuels, not the one that makes us feel good.

 

pretty evident that some on here understand how to be financially astute and others with no regard for finance................after all money must grow on trees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

:)

 

PS not like America hasnt been the leader and at the forefront of taking care of the environment. We had DOT and emissions in 1967 when nary another nation understood what was going on..............

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1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

It is probably pointless to try to explain in this hostile thread why governments of all stripes invest in new technology like Tesla is creating. First one has to accept that human behaviour based "climate change" is real. If you don't agree, then stop reading now.

 

I haven't detected any hostility in this thread at all. I HAVE detected disagreement which is fine. I don't have to stop reading and I don't have to accept that behavior based climate change is real. In fact I categorically and emphatically reject the notion. In a totally calm and non hostile way of course.😃 ( Oh my God,  he's a DENIER! 😲

 

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No serious climatologist claims that the above mentioned micro weather events can, or even should, be conflated with macro climatic  evolution. To even suggest that climate change be described in the context of an "event" is gross over simplification...............Bob

 

Duh!!! Au contraire Bob. Climatologists have for years been saying this very thing. While weather and climate are 2 entirely different things (someone still needs to explain that to the current adminiostration), climate change is having a major impact on long term weather patterns, and more importantly extreme weather related events like those I listed. The major industrial countries produce more Greenhouse gasses per person by far than the undeveloped countries. Yet it is many of those undeveloped countries that will feel the pain, as their coastal dwellings and industries get swallowed up by rising ocean water levels, their buildings get demolished by storms, etc. While we may sit back and say "too bad, their problem not ours", when they start coming to our countries in large numbers to escape their plight, what will you say then. Global Environmental Economics is quite simple: when all countries are doing well, everybody wins. The era of big winners and big losers has to come to an end. Time to become a team player. 

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22 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

If you dont care because your just one person what about 360 million people doing a little something here and their? Even the ocean is made up of little drops of water. Pretending that the problem isnt yours to solve because there are worse offenders means nothing ever gets done. But alot of good can get done if a huge number of people just do something small. Nobody is going to steal all your money to save the planet. But pretending that a few extra bucks in your pocket is more important than solving this problem is stupid at best and suicide at worst.

 

Thats why taxes do alot more good than they save each person but thats a topic for a different place. Enuff little drops add up to something big. Nobody has to give everything but everyone has to give something. Thats what living in a society is about. We forgot that and our grankids are going to pay the price.

 

I am not exactly sure how you conclude I don't care. But every pocket has its limits. There are many environmentally influenced decisions I make each year. But no, for the time being at least I am not going to give up my IC engine vehicles. Especially when the leading option, electric is both very expensive and of questionable overall environmental advantage.

  What else would suggest a little guy do ? The nearest store is 40 minutes away by bicycle. In good weather I have ridden it many times. It rains a lot around here , really a lot [ officially a costal temperate rain forest } so decent cycling days are limited.  Grow all my own food ?

 

Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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1 minute ago, Gunsmoke said:

No serious climatologist claims that the above mentioned micro weather events can, or even should, be conflated with macro climatic  evolution. To even suggest that climate change be described in the context of an "event" is gross over simplification...............Bob

 

Duh!!! Au contraire Bob. Climatologists have for years been saying this very thing.

 

They've also been saying that we're headed for nuclear winter, then the whole world will be under water when the ice caps melt, all the while fudging data to support the warning du jour and attempting to stifle debate and discussion while seeking to impose dramatic reordering of the global economy.

 

It's a cult.

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Just now, 1912Staver said:

 

I am not exactly sure how you conclude I don't care. But every pocket has its limits. There are many environmentally influenced decisions I make each year. But no, for the time being at least I am not going to give up my IC engine vehicles. Especially when the leading option, electric is both very expensive and of questionable overall environmental advantage.

  What else would suggest a little guy do ? The nearest store is 40 minutes away by bicycle. In good weather I have ridden it many times. It rains a lot around here , really a lot so decent cycling days are limited.  Grow all my own food ?

 

Greg

 

Nobody's asking you to do any of that. But when you act like it's all or nothing and that they're going to tax you in to the poor house to fix a problem that you believe is someone else's job to solve it your not being someone who wants a solution or who even admits theres a problem. We all have a 'not my problem' attitude me included but the longer this goes on the more drastic the changes we will have to make later. If your old and going to be dead before it matters I guess thats your answer. I will be. But my grandkids wont and I wonder how they will think of me when their world is changed and I did nothing about it even tho I knew about it. That kind of shame keeps me up at night. Just because we cant fix all the problems every time doesnt mean we shouldnt try. The technology to go to the moon didnt exist in 1960. They didnt say "Oh well better not try because we dont know how to do it and we dont feel like spending the money." Anyone remember that America?

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8 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

The era of big winners and big losers has to come to an end. Time to become a team player. 

 

Time for socialism? Never gonna happen in the US.

 

-Ron

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4 minutes ago, billorn said:

The technology to go to the moon didnt exist in 1960. They didnt say "Oh well better not try because we dont know how to do it and we dont feel like spending the money." 

OTOH, there was pretty good evidence that the moon existed.

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1 minute ago, Locomobile said:

Time for socialism? Never gonna happen in the US.

And that's just it: the end game for all of this is the destruction of capitalism.  IOW, it's a scare tactic to compel economic overhaul.

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I don't know how many in North America are aware of China's "new silk road" initiative. The Chinese are constructing the transportation infrastructure to become by far the worlds leading manufacturer of nearly everything for nearly everyone. And much of the transportation will use IC based transport, trucks, ships and to some extent trains. Some of the trains will be electric but will the power come from ? Probably not solar or wind.

 Is it really a good environmental plan to produce a huge percentage of the worlds products in a central location and transport it to end users. Good economics no doubt, it has definitely worked for Asia thus far. We in the West are out scaled by Asia in a way that is almost unimaginable in the context of the western world.

 

Greg

Edited by 1912Staver (see edit history)

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