So Tesla is tanking... your thoughts?

[Frank DuVal]

13 hours ago, Locomobile said:

His plan was free electricity for everyone on the planet to power their lives, based on understanding that electricity is ever present and only needs to be harnessed and transmitted. Does this sound like Elon Musk at all?

 

Sounds exactly like some of Elon Musk's ideas!😂

 

If you think the EMF nuts are worried about electric fields now around their home and schools, imagine how bad the EMF fields will be if you transmitted megawatts of AC to power the world with ll the losses being stray fields! We will all be EMF nuts!😁

 

Free electricity? So Tesla was an early socialist? He was just going to get Edison to pay for it.....!👍

[Frank DuVal]

12 hours ago, Locomobile said:

13 hours ago, C Carl said:

Tesla's notion of omnidirectional wireless transmission of electrical power violates the inverse square law.

 

That was debunked 70 years ago.

 

Right, inverse square law is not debunked. Whereon Earth did you read that? 

 

If it was debunked, there would be no need for directional transmitting antennas!  Or reflectors on lighting. Or gun barrels!    😉

[Locomobile]

9 hours ago, Frank DuVal said:

Right, inverse square law is not debunked. Whereon Earth did you read that? 

 

It was debunked when applied to Tesla's theory on the transmission of electricity.

 

Fellas, I am going to exit the discussion about Nikola Tesla. I was questioned why I thought he wouldn't like his name being used by Musk and his battery car, hopefully I explained that.

 

-Ron

 

[countrytravler]

Heading out with a load.

[CarNucopia]

9 minutes ago, countrytravler said:

Heading out with a load.

As a guy who has to haul cars one at a time on a rented U-Haul trailer, there’s something really compelling about your rig.👍

[1912Staver]

Tesla wouldn't be the first manufacturer to loose money on each car sold. The more popular your product the more money the organization looses. It all has to end sooner or later. Alco was one of the finest cars built in the teens. The company took a few years to realize their error. They still make locomotives, just no cars for many years. Perhaps Musk will survive as a rocket manufacturer and drop cars to survive.

 

 Greg in Canada

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

If the start-up companies in USA (like Tesla) don't get support from the masses, (and start-up support from government) other countries with similarly focused start-ups will be eating all the pie. Today's lead article in Hemming's Daily Blog describes just one such company in Germany (Sono) about to start production on it's solar and battery powered mini-van. A lot of guys on this thread need to begin to welcome the new reality and encourage/help companies like Tesla become leaders in forging the new era of personal transport. Otherwise, I can see the newspaper headlines 2 years from now "PRESIDENT SLAPS 40% TARIFF ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEING IMPORTED FROM GERMANY/CHINA/ETC TO SAVE JOBS IN TRADITIONAL CAR INDUSTRY". The tide is coming in folks. 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

I am afraid it will be a very long time before I welcome a very expensive , very complex vehicle into my life. My current very simple, near as can be imagined to trouble free, very economical to operate regular use car is a $10,000.00 Hyundai Accent. For the price of the cheapest Tesla {$64,000.00 Canadian before incentives}  I could buy a number of Accents, probably  4 or even 5. So far 280,000 virtually trouble free KM. I simply cannot afford any $40,000.00 +, daily driver. Otherwise my priority {hobby car } budget would be non-existent.

If someone in North America built a vehicle like the Accent I would definitely consider one. However they all seem to concentrate on significantly larger, more expensive, products. Some of us don't need a luxury SUV

 

Greg in Canada

Edited April 30, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[mercer09]

Gunsmoke,

 

the government has already invested billions (with a B in Tesla)

 

how many more billions should we keep investing in failure? Solyndra's losses pale compared to Tesla.

I for one am not interested in paying more taxes. There is a reason we left England 200 plus years ago.............

 

Staver has it right.

[billorn]

23 minutes ago, mercer09 said:

I for one am not interested in paying more taxes.

 

 

[Gunsmoke]

It is probably pointless to try to explain in this hostile thread why governments of all stripes invest in new technology like Tesla is creating. First one has to accept that human behaviour based "climate change" is real. If you don't agree, then stop reading now.

 

If you do agree, then the global community of responsible governments and leaders (but not all, China being an outlier) have agreed to take steps within their jurisdictions to "do their part" in reducing green house gas emissions (like the Paris Accord, an agreement the current USA adminiostration has dropped out of for no explainable reason). The steps can include movement  toward greater use of renewable energy (wind, solar, hydro), reduction of energy use (LED bulbs, better insulation levels) reduction of industry off-gassing (agriculture and manufacturing), education about the value of changes in lifestyle (like not driving your 4x4 350 crew cab 50 miles daily to your office job), and universal proven motivational measures like Carbon Taxes or Cap and Trade systems, etc. To achieve buy-in, governments offers incentives in the form of grants, tax relief, research funding, land or buildings and the like, some of which have gone to the Tesla family of companies, who besides cars have a strong sister solar panel company. 

 

Could $5B spent on such endeavors in the past 5 years be spent in a better way. Sure, you can spend it every year cleaning up the Climate Change messes from flooding, huurrricanes,  tornados, droughts, forest fires. I rest my case.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Gunsmoke (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

Gunsmoke , I am far from disagreeing with your above comment. Except perhaps that Tesla is part of the solution and therefore worthy of taxpayer subsidy's. 

I am probably as much of an environmentalist as almost anyone on this forum. However I am not wealthy. All my pennies count in this downwardly mobile retired life I now live. And I would have to agree with the opinions expressed by a number of people on this thread that the question of the electric car and its overall environmental impact is still a very unclear situation.

  Also besides China I think you will find country's like India and Indonesia have a very large pollution problem. Along with a incredibly large population.

 I really can't see the wisdom in Western Country's causing themselves substantial economic harm; largely shouldered by middle class and lower citizen's, as long as such huge populations in Asian country's are polluting on such a grand scale. The 21 st. century will probably see China become truly dominant in the world economy, why hand them a large advantage by trying to solve the worlds problems on the backs of average Western citizen's?

 

Greg in Canada

Edited April 30, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[billorn]

1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

Gunsmoke , I am far from disagreeing with your above comment.  I am probably as much of an environmentalist as almost anyone on this forum. However I am not wealthy. All my pennies count in this downwardly mobile retired life I now live. And I would have to agree with the opinions expressed by a number of people on this thread that the question of the electric car and its overall environmental impact is still a very unclear situation.

  Also besides China I think you will find country's like India and Indonesia have a very large pollution problem. Along with a incredibly large population.

 I really can't see the wisdom in Western Country's causing themselves substantial economic harm; largely shouldered by middle class and lower citizen's, as long as such huge populations in Asian country's are polluting on such a grand scale. The 21 st. century will probably see China become truly dominant in the world economy, why hand them a large advantage by trying to solve the worlds problems on the backs of average Western citizen's.

 

Greg in Canada

 

No matter who screws up the planet, we ALL still live here. Making it Chinas and Indias problem to solve because they have the most people and are making the most pollution (although we use more oil than either of them) seems kind of short sited dont you think??? It wont matter who made the mess we are all going to have to live in it. Its also the kind of thing that cant be fixed overnight and we probly shoudnt sit around and wait for them to solve the problem for us or else it might be too late by then. Just because you cant solve 100% of the problem doesnt mean you shouldnt try to fix some of it. Perfect shouldnt be the enemy of good.

[1912Staver]

As I previously mentioned things like air travel and industrial emissions all but guarantee that overall , global solutions to environmental problems are a long , long way away. I might even buy a electric car if everyone else gives up air travel, we all have to do our part after all. I haven't been on a commercial jet since about 2005, and probably won't use one for the foreseeable future.

Electric airliners ? Even Musk can't con investor's on that one.

 Greg

Edited April 30, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[billorn]

1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

As I previously mentioned things like air travel and industrial emissions all but guarantee that overall , global solutions to environmental problems are a long , long way away. I might even buy a electric car if everyone else gives up air travel, we all have to do our part after all. I haven't been on a commercial jet since about 2005, and probably won't use one for the foreseeable future.

 Greg

 

So if there are bigger poluters why even bother at a personal level right? Your truly heroic for not flying on an airplane, you should get an award for that. And your willing to suffer enough to drive an electric car but only if everyone else gives up something thats actually vital to commerce? What a guy! After all why should we have to change our lifestyle's when all those poor people in those poor countries arent doing squat to help us keep our big houses and 7000 pound SUV's and sprawling suburbs and plastic water bottles. Why should we have to change our lifestyles even a little bit to make the future better for people who havent even been born? "Screw you I got mine" has been our motto for so many years we forgot what truely made this country great and it wasnt ignorance and selfishness.

 

This is why theres a problem. This is also why it wont be solved.

[Bhigdog]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

Climate Change messes from flooding, huurrricanes,  tornados, droughts, forest fires.

 

No serious climatologist claims that the above mentioned micro weather events can, or even should, be conflated with macro climatic  evolution. To even suggest that climate change be described in the context of an "event" is gross over simplification...............Bob

Edited April 30, 2019 by Bhigdog (see edit history)

[countrytravler]

Interesting article from Aug of 1967.

[CarNucopia]

3 hours ago, Gunsmoke said:

If the start-up companies in USA (like Tesla) don't get support from the masses, (and start-up support from government) other countries with similarly focused start-ups will be eating all the pie. Today's lead article in Hemming's Daily Blog describes just one such company in Germany (Sono) about to start production on it's solar and battery powered mini-van. A lot of guys on this thread need to begin to welcome the new reality and encourage/help companies like Tesla become leaders in forging the new era of personal transport. Otherwise, I can see the newspaper headlines 2 years from now "PRESIDENT SLAPS 40% TARIFF ON ELECTRIC VEHICLES BEING IMPORTED FROM GERMANY/CHINA/ETC TO SAVE JOBS IN TRADITIONAL CAR INDUSTRY". The tide is coming in folks. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

It is probably pointless to try to explain in this hostile thread why governments of all stripes invest in new technology like Tesla is creating.

 

The tread isn't "hostile". That's just your your characterization of opinions you don't agree with. 

 

Blindly having the government subsidize alleged solutions is a good way to get more crony capitalism and have political donors write policy. The government does not make good choices. They chose ethanol as the solution in the US, how's that working out? In Europe, they chose diesel, how's that working out? IMO, Tesla will soon be seen as a fraud run by a pathological liar (funding secured). But hey, the dude lands rockets....

 

Second, the notion that EVs is the best solution for all our transportation needs is fanciful. With the variety of use cases, one-size-fits-all will never work. But, the current policies that incentivize EVs means other solutions will be crowded out. Simply raising the gas tax $1 would do more for the environment in 6 months then Elon and Tesla have done in 15 years.

 

If you really care about the environment, you need to realize it isn't just a matter of energy usage, it's also a matter of economics. We need to come up with the most cost effective way to reduce use of fossil fuels, not the one that makes us feel good. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by Buick64C (see edit history)

[1912Staver]

55 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

So if there are bigger poluters why even bother at a personal level right? Your truly heroic for not flying on an airplane, you should get an award for that. And your willing to suffer enough to drive an electric car but only if everyone else gives up something thats actually vital to commerce? What a guy! After all why should we have to change our lifestyle's when all those poor people in those poor countries arent doing squat to help us keep our big houses and 7000 pound SUV's and sprawling suburbs and plastic water bottles. Why should we have to change our lifestyles even a little bit to make the future better for people who havent even been born? "Screw you I got mine" has been our motto for so many years we forgot what truely made this country great and it wasnt ignorance and selfishness.

 

This is why theres a problem. This is also why it wont be solved.

 

If my tiny potential and that of other people in my situation is key to the planets survival then we are indeed doomed. I have a pretty tiny carbon footprint. No SUV, no cell, 85 year old smallish house, a very natural yard with 0 chemical additives, etc. Very little "consumer" spending . I do without much that most North Americans take for granted so that I might have a few $ each month for my one weakness , old cars. I live in a temperate part of the continent so little spending on heating, 0 spent on cooling. Heaven help us all if I am a bigger part of the problem than I imagine. But yes, for the good of the planet please carbon tax me truly into the poorhouse.

 

Greg. 

Edited April 30, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[billorn]

1 minute ago, 1912Staver said:

 

If my tiny potential and that of other people in my situation is key to the planets survival then we are indeed doomed. I have a pretty tiny carbon footprint. No SUV, no cell, 85 year old smallish house, a very natural yard with 0 chemical additives, etc. Very little "consumer" spending . I do without much that most North Americans take for granted so that I might have a few $ each month for my one weakness , old cars. I live in a temperate part of the continent so little spending on heating, 0 spent on cooling. Heaven help us all if I am a bigger part of the problem than I imagine. But yes, for the good of the planet please carbon tax me truly into the poorhouse.

 

Greg. 

 

If you dont care because your just one person what about 360 million people doing a little something here and their? Even the ocean is made up of little drops of water. Pretending that the problem isnt yours to solve because there are worse offenders means nothing ever gets done. But alot of good can get done if a huge number of people just do something small. Nobody is going to steal all your money to save the planet. But pretending that a few extra bucks in your pocket is more important than solving this problem is stupid at best and suicide at worst.

 

Thats why taxes do alot more good than they save each person but thats a topic for a different place. Enuff little drops add up to something big. Nobody has to give everything but everyone has to give something. Thats what living in a society is about. We forgot that and our grankids are going to pay the price.

[mercer09]

 

If you really care about the environment, you need to realize it isn't just a matter of energy usage, it's also a matter of economics. We need to come up with the most cost effective way to reduce use of fossil fuels, not the one that makes us feel good.

 

pretty evident that some on here understand how to be financially astute and others with no regard for finance................after all money must grow on trees!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

 

PS not like America hasnt been the leader and at the forefront of taking care of the environment. We had DOT and emissions in 1967 when nary another nation understood what was going on..............

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Gunsmoke said:

It is probably pointless to try to explain in this hostile thread why governments of all stripes invest in new technology like Tesla is creating. First one has to accept that human behaviour based "climate change" is real. If you don't agree, then stop reading now.

 

I haven't detected any hostility in this thread at all. I HAVE detected disagreement which is fine. I don't have to stop reading and I don't have to accept that behavior based climate change is real. In fact I categorically and emphatically reject the notion. In a totally calm and non hostile way of course.😃 ( Oh my God,  he's a DENIER! 😲) 

 

[Gunsmoke]

No serious climatologist claims that the above mentioned micro weather events can, or even should, be conflated with macro climatic  evolution. To even suggest that climate change be described in the context of an "event" is gross over simplification...............Bob

 

Duh!!! Au contraire Bob. Climatologists have for years been saying this very thing. While weather and climate are 2 entirely different things (someone still needs to explain that to the current adminiostration), climate change is having a major impact on long term weather patterns, and more importantly extreme weather related events like those I listed. The major industrial countries produce more Greenhouse gasses per person by far than the undeveloped countries. Yet it is many of those undeveloped countries that will feel the pain, as their coastal dwellings and industries get swallowed up by rising ocean water levels, their buildings get demolished by storms, etc. While we may sit back and say "too bad, their problem not ours", when they start coming to our countries in large numbers to escape their plight, what will you say then. Global Environmental Economics is quite simple: when all countries are doing well, everybody wins. The era of big winners and big losers has to come to an end. Time to become a team player. 

[1912Staver]

22 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

If you dont care because your just one person what about 360 million people doing a little something here and their? Even the ocean is made up of little drops of water. Pretending that the problem isnt yours to solve because there are worse offenders means nothing ever gets done. But alot of good can get done if a huge number of people just do something small. Nobody is going to steal all your money to save the planet. But pretending that a few extra bucks in your pocket is more important than solving this problem is stupid at best and suicide at worst.

 

Thats why taxes do alot more good than they save each person but thats a topic for a different place. Enuff little drops add up to something big. Nobody has to give everything but everyone has to give something. Thats what living in a society is about. We forgot that and our grankids are going to pay the price.

 

I am not exactly sure how you conclude I don't care. But every pocket has its limits. There are many environmentally influenced decisions I make each year. But no, for the time being at least I am not going to give up my IC engine vehicles. Especially when the leading option, electric is both very expensive and of questionable overall environmental advantage.

  What else would suggest a little guy do ? The nearest store is 40 minutes away by bicycle. In good weather I have ridden it many times. It rains a lot around here , really a lot [ officially a costal temperate rain forest } so decent cycling days are limited.  Grow all my own food ?

 

Greg

Edited April 30, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[KongaMan]

1 minute ago, Gunsmoke said:

No serious climatologist claims that the above mentioned micro weather events can, or even should, be conflated with macro climatic  evolution. To even suggest that climate change be described in the context of an "event" is gross over simplification...............Bob

 

Duh!!! Au contraire Bob. Climatologists have for years been saying this very thing.

 

They've also been saying that we're headed for nuclear winter, then the whole world will be under water when the ice caps melt, all the while fudging data to support the warning du jour and attempting to stifle debate and discussion while seeking to impose dramatic reordering of the global economy.

 

It's a cult.

[billorn]

Just now, 1912Staver said:

 

I am not exactly sure how you conclude I don't care. But every pocket has its limits. There are many environmentally influenced decisions I make each year. But no, for the time being at least I am not going to give up my IC engine vehicles. Especially when the leading option, electric is both very expensive and of questionable overall environmental advantage.

  What else would suggest a little guy do ? The nearest store is 40 minutes away by bicycle. In good weather I have ridden it many times. It rains a lot around here , really a lot so decent cycling days are limited.  Grow all my own food ?

 

Greg

 

Nobody's asking you to do any of that. But when you act like it's all or nothing and that they're going to tax you in to the poor house to fix a problem that you believe is someone else's job to solve it your not being someone who wants a solution or who even admits theres a problem. We all have a 'not my problem' attitude me included but the longer this goes on the more drastic the changes we will have to make later. If your old and going to be dead before it matters I guess thats your answer. I will be. But my grandkids wont and I wonder how they will think of me when their world is changed and I did nothing about it even tho I knew about it. That kind of shame keeps me up at night. Just because we cant fix all the problems every time doesnt mean we shouldnt try. The technology to go to the moon didnt exist in 1960. They didnt say "Oh well better not try because we dont know how to do it and we dont feel like spending the money." Anyone remember that America?

[Locomobile]

8 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

The era of big winners and big losers has to come to an end. Time to become a team player. 

 

Time for socialism? Never gonna happen in the US.

 

-Ron

[KongaMan]

4 minutes ago, billorn said:

The technology to go to the moon didnt exist in 1960. They didnt say "Oh well better not try because we dont know how to do it and we dont feel like spending the money." 

OTOH, there was pretty good evidence that the moon existed.

[KongaMan]

1 minute ago, Locomobile said:

Time for socialism? Never gonna happen in the US.

And that's just it: the end game for all of this is the destruction of capitalism.  IOW, it's a scare tactic to compel economic overhaul.

[1912Staver]

I don't know how many in North America are aware of China's "new silk road" initiative. The Chinese are constructing the transportation infrastructure to become by far the worlds leading manufacturer of nearly everything for nearly everyone. And much of the transportation will use IC based transport, trucks, ships and to some extent trains. Some of the trains will be electric but will the power come from ? Probably not solar or wind.

 Is it really a good environmental plan to produce a huge percentage of the worlds products in a central location and transport it to end users. Good economics no doubt, it has definitely worked for Asia thus far. We in the West are out scaled by Asia in a way that is almost unimaginable in the context of the western world.

 

Greg

Edited April 30, 2019 by 1912Staver (see edit history)

[Modeleh]

9 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

Nobody's asking you to do any of that. But when you act like it's all or nothing and that they're going to tax you in to the poor house to fix a problem that you believe is someone else's job to solve it your not being someone who wants a solution or who even admits theres a problem. We all have a 'not my problem' attitude me included but the longer this goes on the more drastic the changes we will have to make later. 

If the carbon tax revenues were actually being used to help diminish our environmental impact it would be a different story.  Currently there is no evidence to support such a claim.

[billorn]

3 minutes ago, Modeleh said:

If the carbon tax revenues were actually being used to help diminish our environmental impact it would be a different story.  Currently there is no evidence to support such a claim.

 

So are you asking why bother at all?

[billorn]

14 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 

Time for socialism? Never gonna happen in the US.

 

-Ron

 

Can you please define socialism for me?

[Locomobile]

14 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Global Environmental Economics is quite simple: when all countries are doing well, everybody wins.

 

Yes if one keeps squeezing drops of yellow paint in to the red paint, he will soon have orange paint. We here in the US have enjoyed a vibrant free market economy for the past 120 years, it is the land where dreams come true. If one wishes to be a millionaire, all they have to do is make smart decisions and work for it, but there are no guarantees and there is also very little Government interference to hinder their ambitions, our Government encourages it. I made the statement years ago in regard to our unfettered imports from China, "If we are going to trade with those folks we better learn to live like them", and that is where we were headed for the past 20 years. Thank God we have a real President now that is looking out for the best interests of the American people instead of trying to share our wealth with the rest of the world. Good men died and sacrificed to create the country we live in. Some people have had it too good for too long.

 

-Ron

[1912Staver]

4 minutes ago, billorn said:

 

Can you please define socialism for me?

 

I can give examples that come close , Scandinavia, Canada 30 years ago.

 

Greg

[1912Staver]

5 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 

Yes if one keeps squeezing drops of yellow paint in to the red paint, he will soon have orange paint. We here in the US have enjoyed a vibrant free market economy for the past 120 years, it is the land where dreams come true. If one wishes to be a millionaire, all they have to do is make smart decisions and work for it, but there are no guarantees and there is also very little Government interference to hinder their ambitions, our Government encourages it. I made the statement years ago in regard to our unfettered imports from China, "If we are going to trade with those folks we better learn to live like them", and that is where we were headed for the past 20 years. Thank God we have a real President now that is looking out for the best interests of the American people instead of trying to share our wealth with the rest of the world. Good men died and sacrificed to create the country we live in. Some people have had it too good for too long.

 

-Ron

 

 

I personally preferred the Canada of 25 years ago compared to the USA of 25 years ago. Both had many triumphs as you mention, but Canada also managed to swing a reasonably decent, accessible by all health care system. Apart from that one detail the USA definitely was near the top of the western world.

 

Greg

[KongaMan]

28 minutes ago, Gunsmoke said:

Global Environmental Economics is quite simple: when all countries are doing well, everybody wins.

Demonstrably false.

 

I make 10, you make two.  Aggregate production: 12.  I give up half my production so you can double yours (because I don't deserve the rewards of my efficiency, anyway).  Aggregate production: 9.  Who wins?  Maybe you (do you really win if points are given to you rather than earned?), but I certainly don't and neither do the folks who want to buy the artificially limited inventory of widgets.

 

The greatest productivity comes from unshackling those at the upper bound, not from kneecapping them to provide the illusion of contribution from the lower end.  And so it is with all these proposals for economic equality.  They're couched in terms of environmentalism or whatever, but they're little more than ideological manifestos.  You're concerned about belching crap into the air?  Fine, but don't me that my coal plant can emit X amount of pollutants while yours can emit 5X, while portraying this as an urgent, immediate action to save the planet.  That's BS; it's duplicity writ large.  Maybe you do care about the quality of the air or genuinely believe that doom is just around the corner, but your actions are inconsistent with your rhetoric.

[edinmass]

I’ll stay away from the politics but I will comment on the Chinese industrial system, and the Silk Road. Boston needed new subway cars, and every bidder in the world came in approximately twice as much as the “Chinese” quote. They said they would build them here........IE in Massachusetts. With the high debt and budget issues in most of the New England states they elected to go “Chinese” and a new factory was built in Springfield right down the street from the old Rolls Royce plant. Surprise, surprise, all of a sudden the USA made cars became “fifty percent” made in the US..........until push came to shove and it’s ending up about 30 percent domestic.......just enough to make them easier to ship than as a complete unit. All the other companies didn’t get a government subsidized build.......probably half will go out of business in the next few years, then we will really start to pay for them int he future. They play by their own rules, and even though right now they are getting hammered by the current political situation. They know that it will always go back and forth, and they will win in the long run. Makes me sick to ride the Boston T on a Chinese rail car..........sad, very sad.

Edited April 30, 2019 by edinmass (see edit history)

[Locomobile]

4 minutes ago, 1912Staver said:

Canada also managed to swing a reasonably decent, accessible by all health care system. Apart from that one detail the USA definitely was near the top of the western world.

 

20-30 to years ago we also had a great health care system. Just about every job had health insurance attached to it, by default and was a non-issue. It became a big issue because as I pointed out above, the people and businesses of US were becoming poorer thanks to these globalist politicians, killing our economy with insane trade deals that put US workers at a disadvantage, loss of jobs, wage stagnation etc. Every socialist idea they've had to fix our healthcare system has been a disaster. Fix the economy, bolster the middle class and the health care insurance issue will take care of itself.

 

-Ron

[billorn]

44 minutes ago, Locomobile said:

 

20-30 to years ago we also had a great health care system. Just about every job had health insurance attached to it, by default and was a non-issue. It became a big issue because as I pointed out above, the people and businesses of US were becoming poorer thanks to these globalist politicians, killing our economy with insane trade deals that put US workers at a disadvantage, loss of jobs, wage stagnation etc. Every socialist idea they've had to fix our healthcare system has been a disaster. Fix the economy, bolster the middle class and the health care insurance issue will take care of itself.

 

-Ron

 

So what if you dont have a job? What if you lost a leg on the job and cant work. What if your employer decides they would rather make more profits than offer health insurance? What if your like Staver1912 and stuck in a place because you cant afford to leave because you cant give up benefits? Tying insurance to jobs is a great way to make a serf underclass but not a great way to make a healthy population. Its no way to live being tied to a job and a place because of insurance.

 

Angry about "paying for someone else getting healthcare?" Then you dont know how insuance works. Your already paying for someone else to get healthcare if you have insurance. The only difference is that you are also paying for the people who dont have insurance. If everyone had it and everyone was paying into the system you're piece of the pie would be smaller. But most people just think that someone undeserving will get insurance on their dime and it outrages them. They are willing to cut off their own noses to make sure someone else doesnt get something.

 

Taxes are tools and great things can come from them. Highway system, parks, museums, and if those arent things you enjoy, then the military, this internet thing, clean water, and all kinds of other things are paid for by taxes (AKA socialism). Most of you are luxky enough to be here just because you dropped out of your mother onto American soil. Dont pretend you earned it by doing something extraordinary. Giving back to build the country IS the American way. "Screw you I got mine" isnt, its just plain greed.

 

I will continue to wait for one of you to define socialism properly. Right now that word is just the boogie man people use to scare people into continuing to give the rich people all the brakes and keep doing business as usual.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by billorn (see edit history)